NVK breaks down the paper Bitcoin threat and why sovereignty belongs to those who learn and take responsibility.
In this episode of TFTC, NVK joins Marty Bent to unpack the growing dominance of “paper Bitcoin” products and the split between sovereign Bitcoiners and mainstream financial adoption. He emphasizes that base-layer Bitcoin isn't for everyone, and most users will engage through custodial solutions like ETFs. While institutional products serve specific needs, they risk diluting Bitcoin's sovereign ethos. NVK advocates for self-custody as a niche but critical practice, outlining a practical progression for those willing to learn. He supports protocol upgrades like covenants to improve security and scalability but acknowledges the political gridlock post-Taproot. Ultimately, he contrasts speculative exposure with true sovereignty, arguing that tools like multisig vaults and hardware wallets are essential for long-term resilience. In a broader discussion, he expresses optimism about AI’s ability to empower individuals, accelerate productivity, and help break free from institutional control.
“Base layer Bitcoin is not for everyone. There’s not enough sats. The math doesn’t add up.”
“Equities are amazing for the entities that cannot buy Bitcoin.”
“Nothing in this space can replace the responsibility of learning what the f*** you’re doing. If you’re not willing to learn, you’re going to lose it.”
“More people getting robbed will make covenants a need-to-have, not a nice-to-have.”
“Twitter is not real life. Just post your [stuff] and leave.”
“Self-custody products should focus on people who stack real coin, not grandma.”
“Bitcoin is already amazing. It’s boring because it works.”
“We already live in the future. With Starlink and Bitcoin, you can operate anywhere.”
“People are poor. They don’t have money to survive volatility. That’s why stablecoins and paper Bitcoin win, for now.”
“Most education is mass production of slaves. AI gives kids agency again.”
This episode offers a clear-eyed critique of Bitcoin’s evolving landscape, where self-custody remains rare, institutional adoption grows, and protocol progress is politically complex. Yet NVK remains optimistic: Bitcoin is working, spreading, and empowering those who choose responsibility. His message is simple, ignore the noise, focus on education and action, and embrace the sovereign path if you're willing to earn it.
0:00 - Intro
0:44 - Wallets and products for the 80%
13:22 - Speculative attack
17:53 - Bitkey & Opporunity Cost
19:31 - AI tools
25:53 - Protocol development
41:55 - Unchained
42:24 - What's up at Coinkite
1:00:37 - We're arriving at cypherpunk future
1:07:41 - Education
1:14:22 - Agency and optimism
1:29:12 - Coinkite and Canada
(00:00) the uncomfortable truth is that base layer Bitcoin is not for everyone there is not enough sacks like the math doesn't add up the reality is if we do 10x improvement it's going to be $10 trillion when it's a million dollar it feels a little bubbly the chances of a public trader company selling the asset that they claim to have everybody goes to jail equities are amazing for all the entities that cannot buy Bitcoin i've never been this optimistic in my life it is 100,000 times more than a dollar in 15 years every time there's a new technology the promise is you're going to be able to free your time to do what you want but this this new technology
(00:34) just causes more work we're just creating more value and that means we're going to have more market which which device would you want to be the placeholder for your video the queue the the queue the queue with a smiley face it is a the moon guy it is an incredible product it's my favorite favorite of your products that you've launched my daily driver playing around with it and you guys just launched some awesome features too yeah it's uh it's I I do enjoy the the queue is uh is my preferred it's It's nice to have the keyboard well now with like Cove Wallet we're live by the way now with like Cove
(01:22) wallet making it easy to have like a watch only version where you can spend from it too if you have the queue yeah i mean Cove Cove is super cool i mean why why don't we why don't we uh it's like a it's a it's a FS project is based on BDK uh works with any hardware wallet that supports PSP uh not not just code card and top signer it's like you know it's it's uh it's open standards um and it's and it's super ultra noob friendly uh on on iPhone and I think I think Pine is doing uh um Android soon too it it was much
(02:06) needed we we need a free open- source vendor agnostic good easy to use phone wallet yeah especially now i mean what are your thoughts on this trend this cycle of treasury companies ETFs people that are coming into Bitcoin for the first time and even some people that have been in it for a long time uh either getting direct exposure proxy exposure to Bitcoin via these paper products these IUs or in some cases even selling a part of their Bitcoin stack to buy the ETF are we are we losing sovereign Bitcoin in front of
(02:42) our eyes so I I think the uncomfortable truth is that like base layer Bitcoin is not for everyone like there is not enough SAS like the math is just doesn't add up there's just what is it 2.1 quadrillion sats and but the reality is like you know the world's wealth is owned by you know a basis point of the population and if we do 10x improvement in world's wealth distribution which I believe Bitcoin does you know it's still 1% you know so you know and then when you when you divide the 2.1 quadrillion sats you know and you and you make them be
(03:27) you know owned by just 1% of the world's population um then you're still like there's just not enough stats for everybody to have on chain so I I think I think the ephemeral grandma or or you want to call it the proverbial grandmother Bitcoiner it's just like you know it's just [ __ ] um the the reality is like Bitcoin onchain uh cippher punk Bitcoin is is uh is for very few uh is a niche you know it's still a gigantic market but it's still a niche um and uh the the Walmart sort of part of the market the 80% of the market uh they're not going to use harder wallets they're they're going to just
(04:16) you know have some shared sats lightning sats cashew sats on on great apps uh that may be custodial or semi-custodial or you know they're they're going to have different tradeoffs so you know I think it's very misguided uh for us to sort of like um only only drive um self-custody um product development based on on grandma right um it's you know when I you know I've been doing this for over a decade and whenever I on board people it's like less and less people have enough Bitcoin for me to advise buying my product like you know it's just like
(05:07) hey you know amazing you bought a,000 bucks worth of BTC like here's a great phone wallet you know stamp your your seed on on on M but you don't even need a harder wallet just just put that somewhere else and and move on with your life right uh if you're planning to put another you know like a few more thousand and maybe look into a harder wallet but realistically speaking you know that's not happening and and retail uh like like first first uh uh touch retail when they come to because they come to crypto right
(05:41) they don't come to Bitcoin like the the the real true noob retail out there uh they they buy you know they're going to buy some Micro Strategy they're going to buy some uh ETF whatever crap you know like uh equity based Bitcoin based equity on on their you know Carl Schwab account um that that is the majority of the the big part of the funnel and unlike how it used to be where they came from Coinbase they could just take self- custody you know you can't take self- custody of Carl Schwab Micro Strategy shares so for now
(06:21) there's some products coming for that but um you know it's it's a different path I think I think the people who are going to self-custody they they are much committed much more committed uh cohort um and uh you know great business but it's not the Walmart 80% cohort of the market that in mind like focusing on the hardcore users who do want to self custody as it stands today with the proliferation of upgrades to your products upgrades at the the sort of wallet software level with things like miniscript what is the optimal setup in your mind for
(07:13) somebody looking to secure material amount of Bitcoin for the long term i I I think I think it's like a you know it's kind of like how I put in that bitcoinscurity.org it's it's a progressive thing i think people first should download something like Cove you know set up a seed on Cove learn how to to store that you know play around you know like spend a few thousand bucks in Bitcoin trying to send and receive just get comfortable right um and then from there you go like "Okay now I'm comfortable with this this concept." You know maybe maybe you set
(07:51) up a code card with uh with a passphrase right or just even single SIG if that's where you at and and then you know as you stack more coin and as you get more comfortable with the technology you're playing with then then maybe you go to multisig you know maybe maybe you find collaborative multisig like uh there's a lot of products for that like nunchuk or unchaining or kaza or um uh keeper and uh and then there is Rob's uh anchor watch coming too with some self-custody stuff right it's there is a lot of
(08:27) options in the market but I think nothing in this in this space can replace the the responsibility of learning what what the [ __ ] you're doing because otherwise you're going to get wrecked it doesn't matter right like you know you either outsource your agency to a third a trusted third party right that be you know Pubco thing or um or or you do it yourself and you understand what you're doing like I I don't think it's prudent and honest to have to just tell people oh yeah Bitcoin is like it's like ultra easy and you don't have to learn
(09:10) anything just go here buy this thing and go right like no like you have to learn and if you're not willing to learn you're going to lose it yeah and so do you think these proxy exposure products like the ETFs and these equities now are actually good for the 80% it's like no no no like I mean you know I run bitcoin treasuries.
(09:41) net net and you know it is in my interest to pump the equities but definitely no uh the the equities are amazing for all the entities that cannot buy Bitcoin right so you know if you're a pension fund right like you can't just go and you know like market buy you know a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin and stick it in your code card right like you have all kinds of like governance rules and and treasury rules and you know all kinds of [ __ ] so um you really like that that's what those products are for or you know like you have like treasury strategies in some companies that they they they require that the asset produces some some yield you know the yield is you
(10:27) sure but you know this doesn't matter right like so so that's why you know sailor goes and creates all those extra products that make absolutely no sense to a bitcoiner you know people always like make fun give him [ __ ] for Right but you know reality is um sorry they decided to blow the leaves around the house today we're not picking it up so you're good okay uh so he's just running around closing some windows and doors um so yeah so like you know Sailor is producing what the market is is creating what the market is sort of demanding
(11:05) right uh and I can't can't fault like you know you being smart and creating those products but those products are are for a very specific buyer right they're not for the dude buying you know a hundred bucks worth of Bitcoin um and and I think right now the biggest issue is the the folks that are coming in in this last year or two you know they're they're they're looking at Bitcoiners who made you know thousandx on their investment and they want their thousandx too so So they're going to like because they don't understand Bitcoin right so so they're going to like either go shitcoin which is a lot less these days
(11:48) and what they do is they go equities right so they go like okay hey you know like the sailor thing it might do 100x Bitcoin right um and that's that's what they're looking for i mean like look at MetaPlanet they did a thousandx or something right um and that's what people people are people are trying to do the usual full on meaning of the word speculation uh you know versus you know uh trying to just find sovereignty right i mean I I talk a lot to like family offices and people who have serious money but they're not like they're trying to not lose their money right they already made
(12:30) the family already made all their money it's just like I just don't want to lose it so in the last the next 100 years so you know entities like that they do understand the value of of like you know stuffing gold in a vault in Switzerland right and so so they are like buying serious amounts of Bitcoin putting in code cards in collaborative multiig or or multiig between multiple signers of the family or whatever and then stuffing those in vaults um and and you know so so there is that part of the market um it's it's a very
(13:10) broad market like there's a lot of different people trying to achieve different things and you know I think just [ __ ] on people trying to do different things on Twitter is kind of counterproductive what do you mean like coming at the treasury strategies cuz I I'll admit like looking at looking at the treasury strategies a lot of people that I respect and I like and I'm friends with are getting into that game and just the pattern recognition of having been in this market for 12 years now is beginning to the alarm bells are beginning to go off you're like "This sounds too good to be true off the bat
(13:43) and I just wear names Marty name names." I'm just kidding i'm just I'm just pulling you down i just It just seems It seems too good to be true for me who knows maybe there I mean I think Pierre's done a good job to help me sort of check my priors and there is some speculative attack fiat arbitrage perspective and nature to all this that I could see working in the long run if governments and absolutely valuable i I mean like so for example I had you know like like any person who started their life before Bitcoin existed right like I had a trading account with like equities
(14:22) in it and other all kinds of crap in it um and you know there is that for companies there is that for personal there is that for tax savings free account whatever right I already have like most of Bitcoin exposure in my portfolio anyways so like you know did I buy a bunch of MSDR and make a bunch of money on it absolutely like you know the there was no tax advantage it was actually going to be very disadvantageous to disadvant oh my god I'm I'm disadvantageous disadvantageous to uh to not do that right so you should maximize your income
(15:04) while minimizing risk and trying to have the most amount of exposure to Bitcoin as you can like you know it's it's a balance um yeah yeah I could I mean it makes sense and I'm not trying to knock any of the treasury strategies i just worry becoming the copycats are what I worry about um I mean it does feel bubbly right like it feels like it feels a little bubbly um but you know that's that's the nature of this fans you know it's uh yeah and it's it's especially uh interesting that this is going on right now because I think the last week has
(15:48) proven that the value prop for Bitcoin like especially if you're holding a good amount of it has never been stronger and you should secure it properly like what happened yesterday in Iran with that bank getting cyber attacks and they literally They just erased all the account records of anybody using that bank so those people woke up and literally don't have their money the money money gone right uh yeah i I mean you know exactly like I I think we uh you know it's it's the just got to be smart about it uh you got to you know it doesn't so see so this is the thing even
(16:26) people who who are like you know full ape equities um they they still like to have some gold bars right in the bank like you know it's very rare that you have somebody that doesn't have a bit of money that doesn't have some physical gold in a vault and some physical cash right so so like you know you you dematerialize those things uh to use the the the fiat people words uh and uh and and you know make those into Bitcoin and now you have access to like liquid asset that is available to you in any part of the planet in case you need it even if
(17:09) you rather be on equities um you know Bitcoin is the best thing that you have in order to be uh operational in any world event cuz you know realistically speaking aside from the doomers they you know World War II is always about to happen but then it doesn't the the thing is like you know you could have like even in even in like developed countries like you could have a year or two of of like being very liquid right on whatever you have so having that BTC might might be the difference between you having like a a
(17:45) very comfortable existence during the year or two or not so uh you know buy Bitcoin put in a code card and and move on with your life sup freaks this RIP TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey bit Key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose it is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a 203 multiig have one key on the hardware wallet one key on your mobile device and block stores a key in the cloud for you this is an incredible hardware device for your friends and family or maybe yourself who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a long
(18:19) time but haven't taken a step to self-custody cuz they're worried about the complications of setting up a private public key pair securing that seed phrase setting up a pin setting up a passphrase again Bit Key makes it easy to use hard to lose it's the easiest 0 to one step your first step to self-custody if you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't moved it off tell them to pick up a Bit Key go to bit.
(18:42) world use the key TFTC20 at checkout for 20% off your order that's bit.world code TFTC20 sup freaks guess what we launched a browser extension it's called Opportunity Cost and it helps you see the true cost of everything in Bitcoin convert prices to Bitcoin as you browse the web opportunity cost automatically displays fiat prices in Bitcoin or SATs helping you think in a Bitcoin standard it works on Amazon Zillow X your bank account QuickBooks you can convert everything to Bitcoin it's really cool it's also 100% open- source MIT license we don't
(19:16) collect any data all of the conversions happen in your browser on your local device it's a great way to recalibrate your life and begin thinking in SATS go check it out at opportunitycost.app that's opportunitycost.app despite everything going on with World War II fears which I agree with you I don't think they're going to materialize nothing ever happens i'm extremely optimistic and I know you've been playing around with this and we've talked about it on the side but I could see like a massive productivity jump i
(19:49) mean we're already seeing it with AI but I think the time to build stuff has never been more exciting like I was been talking about it on the show i vibe coded a little app got somebody to finish it we launched it it's working it's cool we've got over 2,000 users already i was like "Oh.
(20:13) " Mhm like I was able to do that in an afternoon and then pass it off to developer who spent probably like less than 10 hours on it and boom app created and when you think of how fast the AI stuff is progressing specifically um I'm just in incredibly optimistic about just people building cool things over the next few years yeah it is it is remarkable what you can achieve now right um with with very little sort of like knowledge or input um you know the the bots do a lot for you but again it it's like the bots are amazing they're you know say the next five years they're going to replace you know maybe 30 40%
(20:54) of of the you know of the of the the middle of the curve it's a middle out of the bell curve here that gets replaced you know like at least that's my framework for it it's like you know you have the the the people who are just sort of like uh you know Excel jockeyies and you know and uh the middle management you know all the people who are in the middle of the curve um you know because the the people who are on the on the on the right of the curve you know it's it's a wait is the right yeah the right of the curve is the high IQ right so the right of the curve you know like you know like those things are very
(21:34) hard to replace it's very hard to do the last 10% of the knowledge of of the specialty whatever you're doing right um that's going to take like forever you know and then the left of the carbs they're cheap it's like super cheap labor super cheap specialized it's like super super labor based things mechanical things right like things that that are still cheaper to do by people than to do by machine like the way I like to think about it is like when you have strikes like you know in in large companies and then what the company does
(22:08) is they they'll raise employee salaries to to meet the demands of the union temporarily and then they just you know because the market demands it that they make it cheaper don't pass the c the cost to the customer like they will slowly automate whatever makes economical sense right like look at McDonald's you know there is one person serving a 100 people it is just screens now so do you think it's going to be ma obviously it's going to be massively disruptive but do you think it makes economies better off
(22:42) absolutely you know everything gets better like this whole thing is is like extremely amazing for humanity right um you like why wouldn't it get better like just just look at uh you know like isn't it better to be able to like ask Chatty PT what what's this weird sort of lesion on your kid's leg instead of having to wait for a doctor consultation right like if you're a parent you know right like I mean it doesn't mean you still don't use the doctor but like you know you go you ask the AI like you know it's it's you already maybe didn't make a mistake and rubbing the wrong cream and
(23:22) and like giving your kid like you know like worst outcome um it it's uh and and that sort of like you know like uh uh projects over like everything uh you know like lawyers like you know I I used to just like think of things go to the lawyers and ask them stuff right like immediately lots of emails with little questions that costed me a lot of money and now I just sort of like ask chat a bunch of [ __ ] and then like when I'm ready I just go and ask the lawyers like you know like to to sort of validate or or like show me where it's wrong and I don't hide it
(24:01) it's like look this is a chap says is it right no I've I've done this with employment contracts and I have a lawyer who gets it so that's what I exactly what I did i hired somebody in the last six months and created an employment contract on chatbt and then handed to the lawyer he made a couple of red lines and changed some some words but it took like a half an hour to be like yeah this is good you can send it it is amazing like I mean the amount of like just just contract review it is insane right um
(24:33) yeah know it's it's a brave new world it's like hard to not be excited about it yeah how do you think AI progresses in terms of like the monoliths like OpenAI Google Meta Anthropic sort of controlling everything versus open source models and self-hosted models winning it's it's it's a mix right like there's we're so early it's impossible to know what's the winning strategy like you know like look like Netscape still not it's not around anymore right that was the first usable browser um you know Internet Explorer only exists in corporate
(25:18) you know Chrome sort of took over you know Google used to be the hottest thing on earth like they can barely sell ads now because people are not on Google anymore they have strategs is one of the biggest uh uh suppliers of search API right so a lot of this this this uh AI chat companies are using Bing as the back end for search um it's going to be very disruptive impossible to tell what's winning what's not winning and what's going to look like in a you know even in a year from now yeah do you recommend vibe coding for Bitcoin
(25:57) Bitcoin apps abs absolutely not like it's amazing you know like you want to make a cool little website that displays something interesting right that sort of give you uh um like moreformational kind of uh um functionality then I Yeah sure i mean have fun with it but like really like it's the same it's very similar like to ask if if you trust Chatty PT to do open heart surgery on you already using a a robot dog we're not there yet we'll get there we'll absolutely get there we're just not there yet yeah i mean that was a meme a few weeks ago or probably like a
(26:46) month ago at this point with the OP return battle there are many people out there saying somebody has to vibe code a new Bitcoin implementation so that we can transition away from core yeah that's [ __ ] um yeah I mean I I completely agree well I mean what I mean on that subject like obviously a lot of a lot of contention in the Bitcoin development world over the last few months whether it's OP return um obviously James Ourn and I believe you were a signatory on the letter for OPCTV and uh Czech sig from stack what what
(27:27) are your views on the state of Bitcoin protocol development and the conversation around it and the social I'm going to I'm going to avoid avoid getting in trouble by minimizing my opinions on this but um no we need to hear them all get in trouble no like Okay so we we I I think we're going to need some form of covenants uh I think we're going to be way better served by having vaults that are onchain spending policies uh just just very gray thinking and sort of like just you know thinking of a thousand years from now family still chipping away from the pile um it's like
(28:11) you you you know like right now we have to depend on on hardware right so like the cold card has say for example spending policies right with the the cosign feature but you know you're still sort of like limited to to the limits of of the hardware itself right so you know is is it extremely secure yes um but is it as secure as being enforced by Bitcoin itself no right so say for example we we we get covenants in um I I would be able to create like I can create the keys on the code card right because that's what you want and then I can have the script policy of the vault
(29:01) something that is enforced by Bitcoin itself so you know that specific vault doesn't allow you to spend more than you know say like you know a million sets a day right so if you find yourself in a conundrum like there is nothing that can be done that's the policy right uh maybe maybe you do have a nuclear code uh um seed somewhere else that is buried under a mountain that allows you to withdraw from the vault like the whole amount but and you could also make it so that the withdrawal always to another halt
(29:36) so you know there is many ways to skin the scat it's just like it gives us like a much bigger design space with onchain enforcement of rules right that's the key uh that also helps people share UTXOs better for lightning for all kinds of other weird [ __ ] out there that will help bank the world um it's uh you know is it a need to have though yeah not quite so you know maybe that's the test to see if it gets you know like developed further and merged eventually but um it is a very very nice to have and if more people start getting robbed maybe becomes a need to have yeah
(30:22) that's that's was going to be my question what is something that would make it a need to have and to your point more people getting robbed or I like the way James positioned OpVault which I think a lot of the functionality that Opv Vault um designed would be capable with CTV as well which is like we need to get to a point where exchanges cannot be hacked essentially like exchanges become unhackable if you have the correct DevOps team creating structured vaults that that make it impossible to actually steal Bitcoin um from an exchange yeah then the other
(31:01) argument is like something like ARC if that gets product market fit and hits a certain scaling threshold that could be increased with something like Covenant that could be interesting on the payment side um and the scriptability side offchain scripting but I I I think it's something that I would like to see as a Bitcoiner as somebody who runs a company with a Bitcoin treasury um and would like those spending conditions baked into the protocol level and I worry that I think the op return discussion and just how people are are viewing Bitcoin core as it stands today
(31:43) prevents any meaningful discussion around covenants and checks sig from stack moving forward mcmath's convinced we'll never have another soft fork again i'm like I don't know about that i think I think we should have one um and then you have the other misconception well we're going to need one there is one we have to fix the wind the the Unix time code so that one is not optional otherwise we're gonna have a hard fork that's a hard fork though isn't it yeah that's a hard fork yeah I mean personally hard fork everything i hate
(32:14) this whole soft fork business and this whole speedy trial business it's like you know as Mr hoto is a proponent of that too it's like bring back hard forks as the correct way of of uh of handling the network uh people need to grow a pair and just accept that the hard forks are the way to go but um yeah it's it's important yeah it's uh and I think another sort of misunderstanding people look at segwit and tap routt and see the unforeseen consequences or second order effects of implementing both of those with the emergence of inscriptions and ordinals and think we
(33:00) can't do another soft fork that changes Bitcoin because who knows exactly what it it will enable And if somebody's non-technical I I can see that point i've made that point in the past but how do you get the non-technical person like over that hump of understanding that something like OP CTV or check sig from is a much different sort of upgrade to Bitcoin no it's just you won't you won't carry the average person along with any of this stuff it's it's going to be you know some marketing thing like no different
(33:37) than tap routt everybody just went along with it it's like look everybody has some green dot on there or was orange dot whatever it was i can't remember anymore but you know like uh they they see the trend forming and then they follow right the majority just are just followers which is very reasonable position people have better [ __ ] to do their lives than be arguing about Bitcoin uh u uh up codes um but uh yeah you know like what really matters is you know like you have to get the m the miners along you have to get the
(34:10) economic the big economic actors along especially the people who validate a lot of transactions right like exchanges and things like that and uh and that's it that's enough yeah that's another sort of uncomfortable part of the conversation literally everybody spinning up knots nodes moving away from core the whole concept of like economic nodes which I think towards the end of the segwit battles became clear to people but I think since 2017 people have forgotten about that like unless you're actually validating transactions and moving transactions through nodes
(34:51) like what is the impact of your influence on protocol I mean the block increase the block increase in the segwit discount was like a terrible thing but it was the thing that didn't split the network right that was the compromise uh and I think a lot of people didn't realize that the block was being raised the block size the weight block weight the no the block size too we you know we made it a lot bigger um the so so you know it's again it's you know as as a network grows uh the more watered down and the more
(35:33) sort of like uh compromise things you have to do right because you have more people to please so that that's may maybe that's why it doesn't change anymore except for the time code the Unix issue um except for that like maybe it doesn't change anymore and and then you're going to see a lot more of this sort of like the contentions going to these marginal things like you know like the the the limit of the up return all the soft things that don't require consensus right um you know and the things happened on GitHub which has
(36:07) terrible moderation tools and I think it was extremely mismanaged how it was handled and you know it just caused more grief and you know who knows maybe we get more more core versions out there that just have different sets of of defaults uh I don't know man it's uh I think I think it sucks but like I I think people really sort of wasting too much of their energy on this stuff i agree there like do you think there's any credence to the thought that decisions one way or the other particularly around OP return are existential to the protocol in the long run
(36:51) uh so you can look at this in different ways um so people already can do all those things right like I mean that that needs to be said like you know good luck you know Mara will take your money and mine whatever garbage you want to stick on chain you know they'll figure out a way to stick it in and they'll do it so it's already been true that people do non-standard transactions and get them mine right uh so so there is that um and then you know the all the JPEGs and all that [ __ ] like I mean you know that stuff always gets economically priced
(37:27) out so I'm not too concerned about that uh the OP return is a better place to put it versus on say bear to BTSH or something like that because you can prune out however and know like I I I highly like recommend people just try to run a Bitcoin node okay with index on so that means truly a full node right not pruned uh on a laptop like that's that's almost a terabyte worth of data right like that's that's a huge [ __ ] problem uh you know you cannot get a MacBook Air from Apple with more than two terabytes
(38:08) like you just can't um so you know but then you go into the conversation of like hey you know how many people are really need to run a node for their self validation because they're not really [ __ ] like holding real Bitcoin anyways like this conversation is very sort of broad there's a lot of different people out there um but uh you know we should really be having his core working on things that the market needs versus what the engineers want that's my personal opinion and what do you think the market
(38:42) needs right now you know we need we need to be able to index transactions properly on core like we do with electrum server instead of you know wasting time on op return discussions like I shouldn't need an electrum server to do like appropriately uh u performant uh block search for transactions as a business right you should be on core core should should have like you know better ways for you to to time uh uh broadcast of transactions Um you know there's a bunch of stuff you know like I mean like the wallet on core is practically like just like experimental for the engineers to to
(39:25) keep on working on core but like nobody uses core as the actual guey wallet like it's absolutely unusable um and you know there's a lot of stuff like that but there is a lot of progress too i mean there's a lot of good people doing good work it's a massive piece of software you know Satoshi left practically a dump worth of code uh you know the core the code quality was like atrocious um you know so it's a lot to fix and clean um you know [ __ ] there was like unfinished like poker uh inside original Satoshi client like
(40:11) you know like there was like a lot of weird [ __ ] in there um and uh you know it's a lot of work to to make it work and it's voluntary work it's you know thank thankless work there's a lot of money now for core development um which is good thing and bad thing but um yeah it's just no no good answers right like no perfect answers it's just just a massive project that holds a lot of money for a lot of different people have different needs yeah have you read uh Arbdout's book that he just released something more profound i haven't i haven't yet no it's really interesting highly recommend big
(40:49) fan of Arb yeah go find uh Something More Profound Arbed Out A RB D O U T on Twitter go find him i'm sure you can find a link to the book but he basically goes through the history of the protocol development of the internet and the different protocols that make up the internet and it's really interesting some of the parallels that exist between the buildout of the internet stack and and the Bitcoin stack i'm only about halfway through now um but I think if you're trying to approach a better understanding of Bitcoin protocol development and layer development this is a great read
(41:30) yeah it's it's hard man like doing decentraliz and the internet's not even decentralized anymore right you know and email you can't even run email anymore yourself uh it's uh it you know the tendency towards centralization is just natural for any network right because it's a lot more efficient uh so so Bitcoin working the way it does it's uh it's already remarkable as it is Bitcoin's next parabolic move already starting two of the strongest historical indicators global M2 liquidity and the copper to gold ratio are flashing green again
(42:06) unchained and techdev break it all down in the new report Bitcoin's next parabolic move could liquid liquidity lead the way if you care about the macro forces shaping Bitcoin's trajectory now's the time to pay attention visit unchained.com/tc to read the full report that's unchained.comTFTC what um what's your focus at Coin Kite right now what are you excited about in the coming years oh we are we are uh we are trying to create more features for the people who actually use Bitcoin um you know it's like the the the key
(42:45) teleport stuff the cosign uh the the the spending policies features uh we're doing like a lot of work in that environment uh because you know it's it's what people really need right and it's people love to talk about you know some random [ __ ] that people need like buy from an app and you know like uh put it straight into the wallet and things like that but then when people actually have Bitcoin in their harder wallets like how can we help them protect themselves and you know be digital nomads or you know like so much is not really thought
(43:27) through in a lot of the interactions with the hardware so we're sort of like putting a lot of effort into that well let's dissect key teleport because I think it's one of the coolest features any hardware wallet has ever ever released so essentially like the the goal was let's say you have a counterparty uh or somebody trying to help and they're not near you right um they you need to help them set up a code card with a seed or you have a work private key it doesn't have to be a seed it could be a private key as well um or
(44:06) SSH key or something you need to send it to them across uh you know the ocean where the other country where they are in and uh you can't trust the computer with secrets anymore uh like at all you can't you can barely have SSH keys on them you shouldn't Um you can't trust your phone with secrets either right those two devices are essentially assume owned um and uh how do you send them a secret right like if if the stack is compromised the the clients are compromised like what how do you do it right so starting with the premise that the code card is not compromised right then you have your device and it's you
(44:47) know it's not compromised because your money is still there so uh you know you want to send the secret to somebody else so we created a little protocol that works over either a video call or NFC tap and essentially you you scan a QR from the receiver and then we create a tunnel and we can send the person any secrets from your code card and the it could be a password from a password manage inside a code card it could be uh a secure note it could be a seed it could be a B85C that you're trying to set up somebody else like anything really um and uh it's very very
(45:26) easy to to do yeah just the thought of being able to hop on a video call with somebody on an insecure device and know that you can make this sort of this transport this teleport via the hardware while it is extremely cypher punk and extremely cool the other the other cool feature um that I really like is the uh is like the dummy the dummy pin to completely wipe the wallet if you're ever in a pinch yeah that's uh and it's so it's so funny to me that took so long for like this market to see it i mean I I think we're
(46:05) still the only company that does it but it's like in the in the vault like physical like safe boxes right safe safe industry and and bank branch sort of safe door business there's always been this idea of of duress right and and so like how do you derisk it right well first you know you do like time of the day that it can open right like we can't do that because we don't have a clock on the code card but this idea that's like okay you can't open the bank vault at night like it doesn't matter if you have the pin right
(46:46) so um so they do that so what we do is try to copy some of that stuff in the limitations that we have right so you can create an amount of pins and and the pins can do different things so you can have a pin that wipes the device you can have a pin that bricks the device you can have a pin that sets a timer to the device so you know you can show that like the device needs it won't let you log in for another 4 hours right um you can have you can have a delta pin that hides your passwords so maybe you have a multisig and you don't
(47:23) care if they take the seed but you want to hide your passwords that you had hidden in there right um we try to create like a a very large design space for the trick pins so that it's not obvious what's going on with that specific target yeah i mean this is massive right like use case like going through a security at an airport have your cold card on you you're trying to get out out of a country or you're just simply moving between cities here in the United States or anywhere else and TSA pulls you aside like what is this you can just open it put in a dummy dummy pin yes completely
(48:04) wipe the device and as long as you have your backups you're fine exactly um it it's like the the device is not the final rest place for the seed right like the seed should be in metal somewhere you know very difficult to get to uh you know and if that has an extra passphrase in metal somewhere else if it's geographically distributed multisig whatever but like you have to look at a hardware wallet it's sort of like the operational side of the seed right it's like it's what do you use to sign and and and to store it while you need access to it right but it's not the
(48:42) backup you know and the backup needs to be physical because you just never know right like you shouldn't use servers as co-signers uh uh if you don't have access to to signing the money out without a server right because servers go away the internet goes away um you know you there's a multitude of of risk scenarios there where you know your ultimate place is really that metal because that metal doesn't burn at the house right that metal doesn't go away when a company goes out of business um and you can just load that seed into a new vendor harder wallet you know if code card didn't exist anymore you can
(49:21) just do that right you can just load that seed into some other hardware wallet uh it's a super important thing completely agree my camera just changed so excuse me um no it is really important and not only that it's uh I think optionality is just very important particularly for the hardcore bitcoiner and that's what I'm curious too cuz you mentioned like servers and that's been a big topic of discussion like proof of reserves at micro strategy everybody custodying their their treasury allocation either with a combination of Coinbase and Fidelity or somebody else and um
(50:07) I really would love to see like companies not rolling their own stack but using products like cold card to do multi-IG or um to to actually custody their own Bitcoin obviously there's some regulatory hurdles and compliance things that people cavet about but I think in the long run it's not good to be sort of sending millions of Bitcoin to Coinbase to to solve these problems like you have Yeah funny enough I mean there is already quite a few qualified custodians that that do support and use cold card right like you know as as part of the the signing forum um
(50:50) I I think another part of this is that like there is very little advantage in being public about your custody strategy right because you're just incurring more risk so I completely understand companies not wanting to do things like that there is an interesting standard I forget the name now uh to do some version of proof of reserves where it doesn't really dox the UTXOs uh which is kind of nice i mean is it as good as doxing the ETX absolutely not but you know it has trade-offs but still like it is an inch forward right uh but
(51:25) the thing is I mean like you saw what happened to Micro Strategy right like the coins got all doxed so it's I mean assuming Yeah assuming that they're correct i mean you know it's it's there i remember right like you know even though Iran Enron did happen um you know the the chances of a public traded company to be like you know selling the asset that they claim to have uh like everybody goes to jail right like if they get caught I mean they might not get caught for a while they might be able to you know maybe it's a gap on the on like it's a small
(52:06) tranch of whatever they But you know it it is serious crime um you know like and if the accountants are in it which happens with Enron uh you know it's it's even more it's even more jail right uh I I don't think you know like it's in everybody's interest to to do [ __ ] like that but you know it does happen so like you know there is risk again it's like you're holding in equity there is operational risk management risk you know and a bunch of other risk uh so holding Bitcoin is better yourself but you know what are your thoughts on like
(52:48) products that like or let me phrase this another way like Bitcoin is boring i think uh we already talked about like covenants and check safe from stack and other potential hard forks or soft forks that we would want but is there a possibility in your mind that like we don't need that much more from a product standpoint outside of maybe better payments wallets uh and things like that the point I'm trying to make is like are we there yet yeah like do we just need to integrate Bitcoin into more sort of financial products and it's not really on the technical side it's just creating structures to stuff Bitcoin
(53:32) into and that's you know it's funny right like aside from Twitter where you know everybody has something new to sell and they're claiming that that solves all the problems uh like we we you know we're kind of we're obsessed with our customers and and like the thing that we do is you know we often go in DMs and ask so like we're working on the firmware or working on new hard or whatever like what else can we change on a cold card right like h how can we make your life better right like and people normally just answer like nah that's pretty fine I mean like you know I wish it was prettier I wish it was this or
(54:08) like you know like basic stuff but like I I think that we we are in a pretty good place when it comes to like harder wallet self custody like you know people love to ship on seed so they can sell their new shiny new thing but like it [ __ ] works right I mean like you put that metal somewhere where you normally put your gold and you know for most people that's going to be incredibly lifech changing good um and and then you know with like lightning was [ __ ] like and it's a lot better now And you know it's improving a
(54:45) lot and and it's starting to become like actually fully usable i mean like I've been to countries where everybody takes uh uh certain kinds of payments that you can just do via lightning and and then you can just use it everywhere so it's working right um and now we have like payment terminals accepting lightning without the merchant even caring uh so it it's a time thing like Bitcoin is just so good that like it's so boring that that like we don't need much more we just need to be patient and you know like let FIA
(55:21) go out the door where I mean having been in this for quite a while now are you pleasantly surprised with where Bitcoin is are you disappointed is it just exactly where you thought it would be at this point in time i've never been this optimistic in my life i mean like it's it's insane like for people that maybe haven't been around like Moon the meme going to the moon with Bitcoin price was $1,000 okay like the the idea that Bitcoin was even going to cross $1,000 without everybody going to jail was like absurd like it was
(55:58) completely absurd that we were going to even cross $1,000 okay uh except for a few insane people good on them for thinking that Bitcoin was going to get over $1,000 for sure it's like it's insane and we're $100,000 per coin like it it is a 100,000 times more than a dollar in 15 years like is mindboggling insane right so the everything is working according to plan the network works the the number is going up you know like and and the more people that are clever come in they're going to create bubbles and they're going to crash the price and that's normal and
(56:40) that's how it happens right i mean when you look at Vimar you know versus gold the Vimar mark versus gold you know it was extremely volatile uh it's not like just like this beautiful straight line up right like it's going to be very choppy um and but but things are are going man like it's it's insane that he can you can transfer a billion dollars without permission in any country on Earth like you know like in just 15 years like it's insane yeah I I completely agree and there's like all the people out there complaining about price suppression it's like we literally just hit a a new all-time high two weeks ago or last
(57:25) month whatever that was it's like and people and to your point earlier people want the,000x and they expect it to go up to a million dollars very quickly but that's another thing people really don't understand like at a $2 trillion market cap like it's way you need a ton of money to come into the market to Yeah i mean the the price comes from the margins right like and and you know you're you're going to need a lot of people playing on that margin like on the buy side um you know to to shore up that that trillion dollars it you know it's going to be $10 trillion when it's a million dollars right so
(58:03) um it's uh you know like the retail is practically relevant now on on the Bitcoin price it's it's we're getting there right um remember like retail doesn't move like even equities that much what really moves equities is all the retail that has a pension and then the pension funds move that equity right like or or the people try to do [ __ ] with you know the the the the derivatives right but but realistically speaking it's like that just the amount of money you need doesn't come from you know Joe who owns a cafe and decided to like dump his
(58:42) $100,000 in savings into bit into Bitcoin right that's not going to do it no that's certainly not yeah and that's what I mean I brought it up because people X people need to get out of the Twitter bubble it's It's not uh Twitter is not real life people like seriously not healthy no just like go there [ __ ] post and leave don't even read the the replies no it's like I do feel like there's a part of the market or part of the people paying attention to Bitcoin that just like want to be online all day every day
(59:19) talking about it but I'm becoming more convinced it's like it's just going to become boring go build a business and stack Bitcoin quietly there is there is no dollar conferences except for you know like Jackson Hall uh where you know like uh where where like the the the the print masters go to sort of chat with each other there like you know like nobody goes to like you know USD conferences or go to you know like there's no dollar community there's it's just it's just like a pipe it's it's a it's a system for you to then go do other things it's like
(59:57) you know like there is only so much market for Bitcoin products and it's going to be actually smaller amount of products with just bigger market share like that's how it works in any industry and you know go go build something actually useful i don't know go make a a robot dog that has lasers on it right so that it can do home security you know and and hold your Bitcoin hold your money in Bitcoin like that that's a much more productive thing to do go make money doing productive things and then than than like care about the price in
(1:00:31) terms of like you're not going to affect it you're not going to trade it you're not going to pump it right um so go be productive yeah i mean on the topic of robot dogs with lasers it does seem like it does seem like we're moving into the sovereign individual cipher punk future i mean look at what happened in Russia a few weeks ago with that drone attack um it does feel like the cipher punk future is quickly quickly approaching the sovereign individual think about it this way like have you ever lived in a place that's a bit more remote with a little bit less sort of like nicities amenities
(1:01:08) and less sort of like availability of product like you know you can be living in the middle of nowhere in a jungle right uh in a in a country that has no Amazon uh has like no like barely like any sort of like resources to what you're accustom downtown Austin right like which is like next same day Amazon for some [ __ ] you know uh but the thing is though like with Starlink and you know like there's like decent like solar panels now for you to be off grid um you can be in this place and and exist already in the future right so
(1:01:50) like it's like if you're in Africa like in some in some very poor places it's like living a thousand years ago right but you can now live you can cross the time and space you can go live in that place okay with Starlink with your computer so like you can have a 2050 life right in in 19 in like in in 1950 right and and like we've already cross space time in that sense right and so like you know if you're in this some of these remote places there's always a way to get stuff like you know if you can just wait a week or two like you can get like you know organic Italian flour delivered from Whole Foods Miami into
(1:02:32) the jungle in Central America like in two weeks for like 20 bucks like it is insane right so you can get the nicities if you have a little bit of patience uh just because of the actual physical moving of that product right but but you do you do live on time right you can if you're a trader you're trading from that place you're doing whatever you're doing you can still exist there um now imagine when we have this this things that seem like sci-fi for us where like I don't know like you're a humanoid personal
(1:03:03) security person right like you know you you can just order that on Amazon the same way you order Starlink on Amazon and two weeks later you have a humanoid in the middle of a place that everybody arounds you lived like a thousand years ago or a 100 years ago sorry not a thousand 100 years ago right it's like but if you actually like pay attention being a little bit more outside of the daily grind of a western big city like we already have those like we already are in the future it's just that it doesn't feel to you like we are because
(1:03:41) you're just sort of like it's kind of like the the the the uh slow boiling frog thing you're just sitting there in the warm water you haven't noticed that everything around you is already like like developed an extra 20 years in the last one year right uh but if you if you're in a place where there's a stark difference like you do notice yeah i mean even in Austin This is a bit counter to what you were just saying but like the explosion of Whimo over the last year like I remember a couple of years ago they started like testing and it was like cool to see a Whimo and it was like oh my god who's in
(1:04:20) that and they had like a very strict sort of boundary through which they could do rides and rather quickly like every in Austin today I'd imagine like every 15th car is a Whimo that you see on the road and to think of how quickly that autonomous fleet of cars sort of went mainstream in Austin is is pretty insane it is not like I mean even just Uber right like you don't even have to get to the like so Uber verticalized the whole taxi experience right like eons ago I one of my side businesses was like some high-end taxi dispatch software
(1:05:00) right and and like we were doing like one of the largest North American companies doing the dispatching back back end for them um and you know like Uber came in and completely killed them like because why like because like you can't compete with a tech company hiring somebody else's tech right like you have to become a tech company yourself and have that experience all sort of verized and combined right um and and you know like in in the last 10 years like you press a button and a car [ __ ] shows up
(1:05:37) and and it takes any kind of payment method like you don't have to talk to the driver literally one check box is don't talk to me driver right like it's like it's practically a a robot placeholder this is this is what like maybe people are missing in this development of the last 10 years that like that's happening to everything we're just like so many parts of our economy and products and services like they still have a person there but that person is just a robot like placeholder i know it's just a placeholder because like maybe that position either we're not quite there in capability of the
(1:06:15) robot or the robot is just too expensive which is normally most of the case so but but another five years or one year like that person will be replaced by a robot that's why like you know it's so idiotic what unions are are doing with like large like for example DHL in Canada they stopped taking packages this week they're just like "Okay we want an increase in salary.
(1:06:41) " Like you know and and and the company goes like "But the market can't bear." You know then the union is like "Not my problem right?" Like so so like the the means what like you know DHL is going to cave right because they need to continue as a business so they're going to figure out a way to cave to a certain extent and they're going to probably to defer the the increase right uh and then what they're going to do is just like you know replace 10% of the the the the workforce in the next month and then replace another 20% of the workforce in the next year right and then they'll find another balance again right and and
(1:07:17) that's just a trend on everything um you know AI speeding up that you know like just hardware development speeding up that uh you know consumers being comfortable with robots is speeding up that too um you know Japan was there in the 80s man they were doing weird [ __ ] with robots it's just that consumers are not ready yeah and this is something I think about a lot in the context of looking at my kids i I think my kid my my oldest is five and I think it's like a great time to be five cuz I think we have yes we have a period of time to figure out how this disruption is going to play out and position at
(1:08:00) least me position my my kids to succeed in this new world as as things transition but that's like thinking like experiencing this fast accelerating change and playing with the tools and seeing how it's affecting my life like looking at my children and being like "All right how do I position you to be okay when I think it's safe to say within the next 10 years there's going to be massive labor force disruption and the world's going to look completely different in terms of how work is viewed and and what humans are actually doing
(1:08:35) yeah i mean like so my wife does way better reading than I do right i'm full dyslexic so like she reads to the kids nice i read to the kids like poorly so you know I what I started to do that's a lot more fun is like for for for a couple years they would just ask me questions in bed and I just sort of like answer so they would ask me how do you make a a car so I'd explain how you make the car right like how do you make a rocket i explain how you make the rocket right so I was essentially a father chat
(1:09:05) PT for kids right and then like you know it hit me like 6 months ago or whatever i'm like [ __ ] I should just like turn on chat on voice and like and we can ask together the most absurd questions right and and like man it's so entertaining like because kids are are going from first principles right they're completely unbiased first principles type of questioning and and they get really annoyed when the bot doesn't want to answer them so you know because you know chhattabi is fully cut right so like they they don't want to answer like
(1:09:35) so for my kid was like how do you make mustard gas right because they heard on some book about the mustard gas in World War I right and chat is like oh you know that's not safe for you to do and doesn't want to answer right so then they start to try to hack the matrix here right like they're like yeah okay but what if I was trying to teach some kids in my chem in my in my chemistry class or whatever right like so they they they try to get around the prompt and It is fascinating how the kids jailbreak a lot of the technology and and that
(1:10:06) sort of like gives me a lot of hope because it really shows that like you know a six-year-old can already grasp that even though there is this like computer authority subject matter authority uh with a certain uh decorum like the kid is already interested in how to break through that right Like so they they're already deslaving themselves from from the AI stuff like as kids um and that's super cool to see now like now like when you project that towards everything else like this kids are are going to grow up like you know being being superhumans in
(1:10:47) terms of like understanding how to how to know things right they they they they they know they they're not like see previous generations like the the pre before internet you'd have like people would have this sort of like this big ego where um they they um they they don't feel comfortable asking people because they look dumb right and then our generation was like okay like I can go ask Google I can like we developed this idea where just asking it's no longer shameful Right so like we're capable of doing that with a lot less ego like we're not concerned about like saying I don't know this on a pod
(1:11:29) and this new generation is even crazier right like they they expect to be dumb about a topic and like just like further inquiry into that and like that that's going to be the new university right like they're not going to go to school i I can't see how aside from social needs like what they're going to get out of school in 10 years from now no especially when you consider the just the caliber of education that's being put out there particularly in western universities it's like why would you ever waste tens of thousands of dollars a year to to go to university outside of the social aspects that's
(1:12:11) like something I'm trying to grapple with like do you think this whole we're gonna validate your fifth gender you know like it's right um uh because you know kids know right like you ask a kid this this kind of like kids like so there was this one kid in their school right that that like you know the parents sort of for some weird reason sort of push the kid to be a little bit more sort of uh genderless or or like confusing right and this is very young kids right like four um and like the kids go and ask her like "Why are you a girl today?" Like it's like it's not like they're being mean or
(1:12:44) anything they're just very confused right so kids know this stuff it it it's just like you know we have this weird society that like instead of like learning how to do math in school they're learning how to like validate their insecurities right um and and like with AI education all this [ __ ] like it's going to be very hard to validate stupid right um let al that was a bit of a tangent like let alone the the like everything else that you can learn because you know we already had access to all the knowledge right our generation like you can go on
(1:13:18) Google and find everything but like but you couldn't have Google like then test you and like see like ask you questions to know if you know if you understood so you probably understood wrong but now with this tools like the kids can go and and self validate in terms of like accuracy of the knowledge or understanding of the knowledge and that's what school really is you know and then then there is like the further inquiry into like but what if I mix this with that you know that's how you get your PhD um
(1:13:48) it's uh it's very interesting man it's it's you know like how that affects the non-certified professional services is is obvious like everything gets replaced fast how how that replaces professional service certified professional services is very interesting because you know like you might still want a lawyer you might still want an engineer to sign off on the building but they're not going to be as smart and as good as the guys but they are the person that goes to jail so it's an interesting you know like where does the buck stop
(1:14:23) yeah I mean I've I've been sort of partial towards the idea that we get back to focusing on the physical world like building beautiful things like I could I would be I wouldn't be surprised if like sports culture actually explodes and like that's what humans turn to is just like perfecting their physical bodies and competing like that's what becomes a lot of the focus um obviously like with SpaceX and everything they're going to explore space but it because when you understand like the pace of progression that's
(1:14:59) happening with AI and all the jobs it's going to displace and everything it can do it's like why would why would a human spend time doing this at the robot can cuz that's the other sort of paradox or conundrum is that people are screaming like it's going to take our jobs but they hate their jobs it's like you don't want to be doing that job anyway like so how do you create like people every time there's a every time there's a new technology um the you get like this idea that's like oh we're going to the promise is
(1:15:28) you're going to be able to free your time to do what you want right but this this new technology just causes more work like it's just it causes new work of different kinds and and like the market just keeps on growing so it needs more things to be produced Right like remember like when they said you know spreadsheets are going to free up your time so you can go like I don't know play golf in your you know spreadsheet junkie jockey job you can you know you no longer have to work in the afternoon that's not true it's just that that company now acquired a lot more customers because you was doing a
(1:16:03) lot better job with the spreadsheets so now they need you to work there until 1000 p.m you know um so it's like we're we're just creating more value and that means we're going to have more market there's going to be more stuff to do right like we're not bound by Earth soon enough right so we're going to have to be like you know creating other things and doing other things it's but but the but the thing is that the people who are smart and manage to figure out how to to game the system now also have much better tools i mean they they could be at a
(1:16:34) beach walking you know like while other people are working in a factory right like you know some of that is a product of where they're born or you know their their current reality but like people have way more mobility to break free of of like social mobility today is it's like you know a millionx more than was a year ago like and you know like just look at all these people on Twitter literally like publicizing their book of all the stupid vibe [ __ ] vibecoded websites they do that make five grand a month right um you know they just and
(1:17:11) and a lot of them are not devs a lot of them like they're very honest about how they're not the smartest person in the world they just like they're just hustling and being clever and testing [ __ ] so like the the people who are creative like now like they they can ship you know that's that's go be creative you know you no longer need to be an artisan the artisan thing was very limited by your capacity right um imagination is kind of like becoming your limit it really is and that's why I think it's imperative that Bitcoin continues to succeed because that's
(1:17:50) a lot of the doomerism on Twitter which is understandable is as economic like a bunch of people in the front seats of their car complaining about the inability to survive because prices are rising too high like I think we need to pair this productivity explosion with with hard money in the form of Bitcoin in so people can shake off the doomerism um I think people just have no agency Marty like it really is that simple it's like you know like if you go to a bank job right like where like you don't control your time you literally have a
(1:18:24) person that tells you what to do with your time from like 9 to5 right like you know you don't control your finances the bank tells you like how much you can spend based on your mortgage amount right like your your spouse also has the same [ __ ] daily treatment right like people have like literally like zero agency it's like so you know like how are you going to be optimistic or how are you going to like see the upside of all this if all all they hear all day is that their job is the job they already hate is going to get replaced it's tough
(1:19:02) um you know like we we need to like I mean we know like I mean they themselves they have to like figure out how they break free right uh like nobody's going to hold your hand um yeah and is there just some natural distribution within the population of people who have agency and don't or like could like I think about this a lot again going back to the children like I want my kids have agency see and really go out there and and do something with their lives by themselves and not be beholden to the uh the time trap of of jobs that
(1:19:41) they don't control and a life that they don't control ultimately like how can I steal those values and then building on this like AI topic and particularly the example you use just using the the AI is a quasi Roman tutor that you can just question from first principles and get answers to like will there an increase in individual agency moving forward or is it just embedded into population distribution that you're going to have x amount of NPCs and very few amount of people with yeah I mean like you know western education is just like you know mass
(1:20:18) production of slaves right like it's like the kid goes to school they have their time controlled they have the approved books you know they have the approved topics the approved answers they have to ask to go go to the washroom like how dehumanizing is that like may I go pee like seriously like like you're really instilling a slave mentality right it doesn't mean you have to be impolite and just sort of say like you know like turn your flip your table and go pee like you can just sort of like you know walk like you find
(1:20:50) a period of silence in the class and just walk right like so like just like having kids not have not be bound by this sort of like uh uh de agent kind of environment I think is huge right uh you know you produce more like you know responsible loving children by just like letting them be bored you know like they they can go poke some dead animals instead of like you know like uh having to do a bunch of like homework that doesn't really advance them um I I don't know like it's a it's a tough thing as a parent like kids crave like
(1:21:29) organization and crave um discipline and those things so like how how do you find a balance there and it's it's a different world now than we grew up with right like it's like how do we how do we take advantage of this and try to do our best yeah it's fun though be involved the uh No going back to your point about like your son already jailbreaking prompts i think people really and I think again going back to like it's the best time to be a 5-year-old ever because I've noticed this with our oldest like the the amount that he's
(1:22:05) able to actually take in understand and into it is fascinating to me like like a Bitcoin specifically like we let him watch Tuttle Twins his favorite episodes are the two Bitcoin episodes obviously because daddy works in Bitcoin but he knows what Bitcoin is by himself independently came to my wife and I and said "Hey I want to do some chores i want to earn some Bitcoin.
(1:22:30) " And we're like "Nice." Started like cleaning his room we set him up with uh with an e-cash wallet and he actively comes to us like "All right I'm going to go clean clean the playroom clean my room can you pay me in Bitcoin?" Yeah that that's remarkable i mean like my kids love I I I always give them the the pencil how to make a pencil or whatever was the pencil uh talle twin book that that's like one of my favorite things i mean I wish most people opining on finance and and economics on Twitter read that so they can understand why a pencil
(1:23:06) is so complicated and how does it get made for that price right but like it's uh yeah like you just you just got to feed them what you can right uh they are really a product of of their environment like you know the the genetics like help or not help depending on what part of your genetics got to your kids but uh but ultimately like they they really are a product of their environment yeah luckily for my kids they got uh their mother's side of the hairline which is good for them yeah it's starting to show there yeah I'm feeling good there's too much doomerism out there i'm happy that we're
(1:23:48) uh that we're going down this path because I'm tired i've been a doomer hand up i've been on there spreading doom before but it's becoming harder and harder to be a doomer obviously Bitcoin over 100K uh makes me personally feel good and looks like things are going in the right direction but once you're able to tune out the mainstream media and I I do think these technologies whether it's Bitcoin or AI um and certainly these two technologies combined will disrupt sort of the the old guard political structures that exist we're seeing it happen in real time
(1:24:27) yeah it's like you know it's a outrage society sort of consumer society like dumerism is just like it's it's like lazy it's the laziest kind of thinking it's the laziest kind of consumption it's just like you know it's where like the brains go to die it's the same with protest it's like where the brains go to die you know like if if you if you truly care about something like go go build go build like there is no limitation to what you can make you can just make things you know what does that mean um you know and and just just build it like you know and
(1:25:03) maybe you can even monetize it and you know and have a better life like it's it's not that complicated like just just sitting and crying about the state of the world is like it it it's super gay it's super gay and there's no excuse for the And that's a ghy before the outrage comes in no g a y gay um uh do you think uh you think Bitcoin is going to be disrupted to Silicon Valley been thinking about I've been since we launched Opportunity cost i'm just asking because uh it seems like they still haven't caught on there's this
(1:25:45) whole fascination with stable coins they're leaning into it coinbases JP Morgan's launching a stable coin on base um it seems like a lot of a lot of that Silicon Valley sort of archetype and crew is missing out on Bitcoin specifically marty people are poor like people don't have money people don't have savings seriously like so like you know the proposition of buying an asset that that takes a dive you know every two years and and then pumps a bit more like people cannot wrap their heads around savings right they because they don't have money to save and that's why like you know the whole like you know harder
(1:26:23) wallets for grandmas is is kind of [ __ ] like it's like people just don't have money so you know like having to survive volatility is very difficult when you're when you're living at minus 20% of burn right like that's most people like they're literally like living at minus 10 - 20% of their burn so you know like that's why every checkout that exists has like bio affinity in 12 months or whatever right like um and and like I think Silicon Valley is just tuned in on how to make money out of the people who don't have money you know like it's like how can I sell you you know a newer a newer
(1:27:07) version of whatever you have now so that you can feel a little bit good about yourself and and your life by having you know 50 t-shirts in your closet as opposed to two uh and having some savings right yeah I see you uh don't have enough money to buy that burrito don't worry we've got a short win for you right like uh but it's also amazing right the mismatch of like how the market is uh um not uh perfect like you know like just the arbitrage on that the fact that there is the arbitrage on a burrito on Uber Eats that you can buy on credit
(1:27:47) like is insane it really is it really is it's insane times we're living in um yes what else is on your mind anything else uh we should touch on as it pertains to Coin Kite or things going on in Bitcoin or I think we covered a lot of bases here yeah we did uh you know just it's the usual just like we have our heads down just like building more [ __ ] that's that's the the best advice I can give anybody right now tune it out whether it's World War II Jerome Pal not lowering rates Trump Doge it's all noise
(1:28:25) nothing ever happens unless you put your head down put the blinders on and make something happen yeah like you know find a profit incentive you know like artistic projects are cool but very few people can wake up and like like leave bed for an artistic project right for a hobby project it it's a very special kind of people who can do that uh like most people need a need incentive right like it's like quit you know like it's like start a business on the side so you don't have to quit your job and go straight to noodles especially if you have kids but like try
(1:29:00) to build something that is for profit you know because like that really sort of helps you focus and and that really helps you like you know like improve your life um it really does it really does well thank you for doing what you do i I was counting how many um how many of your products I have within arms length right now four i've got a block clock micro right here to my left i've got Where' I put them got some open dimes nice in here you know that also fits a shotgun shell there it does it is perfect for a
(1:29:45) shotgun so now that you mention it I've got a tap signer in here in a queue nice right in my bag down here so yeah i appreciate you being a customer well big a fan big fan the uh you make incredible products so thank you for the uh Yeah if you freaks have not tried the queue go try the Q it's an incredible hardware device and it's just incredibly safe for clunking get on it get on it freaks my favorite device out there mvk i'm bummed I couldn't see your face but we're gonna we're going to create like an AI character of you that will Oh I'd love that you can be You can make it
(1:30:32) funny i don't care we'll make it funny car cartoon MPK we'll be talking in uh in the Lakes of Canada maybe that's the thing is Canada dead is it screwed yeah man it's like I think Canada has has reached terminal velocity for uh for like escape velocity for uh brains and capital like they because they completely trample the laugher curve right so it's like more taxes than you get in terms of perceived services or perceived quality of life in general like Canada was always very good at that like it was high tax but it was still
(1:31:10) like competitive with America but the quality of life was 10x America Um the quality of life went to [ __ ] canada became essentially India um and uh you know like the taxes are too high you know you can't it's very difficult to come back from this uh and and you know Canadians the Canadians that remain are less capitalized or they take advantage of the state subsidies or whatever shenanigans um and uh you know like it's you see it on everything it's uh the healthcare is [ __ ] the quality of life is [ __ ] like you know it's now more dangerous than you know a lot of places
(1:31:56) um it's a latestage sort of empire vibes there even though Canada is not an empire um you know I don't know how they come back from this is Alberta going to secede successfully oh dude that would be amazing i I' I'd move every single left scent that I have left in that part of the world into Alberta uh and uh hopefully Alberta sort of Yeah it'll be the best i mean Canada is just too big like we need smaller countries with more autonomy right uh so like Canada was supposed to be way more federalist than
(1:32:33) America is uh like in its construction uh but but you know it got captured right so um you you you Canada is like Quebec should have gone uh it would have been the best for for them and for Canada the same with with Alberta it needs to break up you would be a lot better for everybody um you know can you imagine being the third largest reserve of oil on the planet and being like the 20th producer or something like it's just not utilizing it at all it's disgusting well I mean like to like the problem is like it's very difficult to be a big producer of of like energy
(1:33:14) resources because America doesn't like it right so like you know do you know who makes most of the money out of the railways that carry oil in Canada soros you know the same guy who funds Green Peace Canada you know like it's like the like everything in Canada is designed so that Canada does not produce more energy because you know like America did the math and it's not good to have it right um it's a big part of the problem cuz you know like what Canada is going to end up selling oil to China right and
(1:33:51) nobody wants oil to go to China so it's uh it's tricky what they should really do is just take over you know 51st state be great canadians get second amendment get some state rights you know like uh you can just move your corpse to uh to Texas and Wyoming you know like taxfree it would be great be great for everybody america is going to get so much natural resources we don't even know what to do with it um you get a third sea the North Sea um that's a shipping route now um it will be remarkable so it's like either break up
(1:34:30) all the [ __ ] into a bunch of little countries or just become America I think would be the best two outcomes do you think there's any chance for that you know like honestly like right now Canada is just like a great place for us to pillage so it's it's I doubt that would that would change and and Canadians are proud like people who just at least the Canadians there are laugh there um they they're very uh gullible uh very like they you know this is the coidians and the the elbows up i don't know if you saw that that political campaign that got like it's just pathetic it's actually
(1:35:15) pathetic people are still people are still doing COVID shots like there's people still shooting their children with COVID shots there um you know because that's that's the opposite of America it's criminal yeah it totally is it's child abuse the you know the if Trump had lost Canada would have gone way more right it's just that Canada had to be the opposite of America that's why they went left that's often how it goes that was the whole elbows up campaign right it was like Yeah yeah yeah and you know like and I'm pretty sure that Carney and Trump went to the
(1:35:51) same parties at Epstein Island you know like they're all the same crew yeah that the Carney the fact that people don't make a bigger fuss about him considering all the [ __ ] he's been involved in over the years whether it's in the UK Canada um HSBC like go read watch all the plenaries it's insane it's insane the guy literally ruined England by being the central uh the the president of the the the central bank there like the guy was the guy behind all the Trudeau [ __ ] economic policy like and then they go and they like elect the guy and the guy's like
(1:36:30) has like pictures in sofas with like Epstein and and crew but the problem is in Canada like the media you know how in America you get the perception of two sides right because even though it's all the same uni party [ __ ] but like at least you get a perception of the soft issues in Canada there is no two sides there's just one side that's Like it's like it's the the stateowned media and then all the other media is partially funded by government too with subsidies right so you get one narrative only and the people follow the
(1:37:01) narrative uh it's it's it's it's like there's no agency there is Carney better or worse than Trudeau in your mind i mean if Trudeau was running Pierre would have won uh which was very unfortunate um Carney is way worse uh well on the plus side though I mean he might open more tax loopholes which would be great uh like legal ways of of doing tax deference uh one can only hope for that because at least he's a bit more of a businessman just like not just like a haircut uh I mean Trudeau is like complete [ __ ] [ __ ] like Jesus Christ just it's amazing um but you know the
(1:37:44) guy put on the same cabinet few of them already quit so who knows it's it's hard to tell it's you know like the country is not going towards a good place so you know how fast it goes south we don't know but it's going south you know it's uh it's it's going to be a little devastating there it's a shame yeah it it is right i mean like the amount of resources you know the the just the the sheer value of the country you know you have educated people like with degrees and things that are useful you know like you have power you have
(1:38:22) everything like it's it's the classic problem of countries that have everything right they they like countries that have war all the time they have to be a little scrappier right um but uh yeah it's it is what it is it is i love Canadians the Canadians I met in my life playing lacrosse incredible salt of the earth people most of them I believe most of the Canadians I've met become friends with probably align with the uh the Albertan view of where Canada should go but salt the earth that's the minority Marty that is the minority that's unfortunate and
(1:39:00) especially a minority that's still in the country yeah all right maybe it just needs to collapse we can come pick up the scraps yeah exactly just accelerate right that's what the That's what the boys say um what what I mean like if Trump is listening to this episode which he probably is uh what I would suggest is a very easy plan uh to to to fully terminate Canada peacefully uh very easy so you just you offer Canadians okay a onetoone wealth transfer to America so like they already make 30% of the dollar spread right and
(1:39:40) cut them like let them let them like not pay taxes right on their on their first whatever 20 years of capital gains or something right that's it every single business in Canada would move to America like like 100% every doctor would move every engineer would move like it's over oh so you're saying like trying to drain talent like Yeah and then you just And then you just go and you take over like peacefully right just say "Okay now you're America.
(1:40:13) " All right Donald i like this clip it make sure we clip this and we uh we tag the president let him know this is how we get Canada and it's cheap cuz it's only like what like Canada has what like uh 20 million adults that are working adults yeah like that's they they imported like two million last year alone so that number keeps going up yeah but those people Yeah i mean it's Yeah that's a crazy like the the immigration charts i got to double check make sure they were right it's insanity no no they had I think was 800,000 people just this year or something like in a country that's 30 million it was So
(1:40:52) when I arrived in Canada in the early 2000s Canada was 33 million people canada is now like 40 something and like Canadians don't make babies it's like it's actually like all downtown big cities is essentially like protests of people who are marginalized in other countries like that's it it's like it's like the the Palestinians screaming the like the Indians screaming the Palestinians screaming like that's it like that's all that it is downtown now like there is like no Canadians left they're just like it's just people who have problems abroad yeah it's not great
(1:41:37) not great hope I mean come off too nationalistic but the uh we're seeing it happen in America too like the front runner for mayor right now I believe in New York City he's the guy like pushing rent control well he's like Jagabit Singh he's like the guy who runs for the the Labor Party in Canada same same concept and these things do take hold man because they tap into like you know like a lot of like a lot of people who come like as an immigrant i was an immigrant like poor right like no English no money
(1:42:10) right um like you know you want a better life right and and that's what people are seeking right and most immigrants are harder workers than the people who are native like that's very common the the problem is like when you when you have numbers that don't economically function right because you just it's just too many people for the services because you know these countries have fullon communism right like I mean it's like communist healthcare all this [ __ ] so like you just you can't make it work so then the people who are coming have
(1:42:39) shitty lives and can't progress and they're hardworking which you want them to win right uh and it just creates this very uh pervasive uh uh um perverse incentives uh and uh you know and then you lose rule of law and you lose rule of order and you know it's just absolute [ __ ] but again you know it's a big world out there young people are moving with their wealth they take their Bitcoin and they go right uh it's very optimistic is pessimistic for for people who are trapped but for everybody else it's a great new world to be in you just go
(1:43:16) where the capital is treated better uh it's happening everywhere develop agency freaks so you can travel to where you're being treated better mvk it's always a pleasure sir i I think we've waited like I think the last one we did was like a year ago maybe a little bit longer than that we can't wait another year might have been to catch up i mean if we're going to talk about AI it's going to have to be every two weeks yeah I'm just kidding but yes things are moving fast thanks for having me sir always a pleasure no we should do
(1:43:50) like a deep dive on AI at some point because it's something I'm fascinated in is like how we implement it in our business how people are implementing it in their businesses not necessarily like user userf facing end product but like on the back end of of a business like making your processes more efficient and becoming extremely productive on the back end that's something I am kneede in right now in terms of studying and trying to wrap my head around well get the I have to teach you i should I should start asking all right I'm going to go do that take care peace
(1:44:29) thanks for having me greeks thank you for listening to the show i hope you liked it if you did like it please make sure you subscribe rate review the show it helps us out a lot and also if you like these conversations I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast they don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company we have the newsletter the Bitcoin Brief go to TFTC.
(1:44:54) io make sure you subscribe there a lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter we also have the TFTC elite tier if you sign up for that become a member we have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early become a TFTC elite member you will get that we have our Discord server right now conversation between myself and TFTC
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