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TFTC - Bitcoin Will Power Up The Future Of Finance|Andrew Hohns

Apr 10, 2024

TFTC - Bitcoin Will Power Up The Future Of Finance|Andrew Hohns

TFTC - Bitcoin Will Power Up The Future Of Finance|Andrew Hohns

Key Takeaways

In the latest episode of TFTC, we delved into the intersection of Bitcoin and traditional finance with Andrew Hohns, whose background in structured credit and finance has positioned him at the forefront of innovative financial solutions. The episode provided a comprehensive analysis of how Bitcoin, with its unique attributes, can be integrated into various financial structures to address both current economic challenges and enable long-term, stable financing.

The core theme revolved around Bitcoin's capacity to act as a transformative asset when combined with traditional financeable assets. We explored the concept of "financial steel," where Bitcoin alloys with credit to construct robust financing structures. Andrew's insights emphasized the potential of Bitcoin to alter time preferences, enabling individuals, businesses, and institutions to realize their long-term objectives by leveraging Bitcoin's inherent scarcity and growth potential.

We also touched upon the wider implications of Bitcoin adoption, from its role in energy consumption optimization and methane recapture to its potential impact on remittances, payments, and the creation of cyber walls. The discussion highlighted Bitcoin's asymmetric advantage as a superior store of value, programmable money, and a tool for economic empowerment across various sectors, including real estate, industry, and energy.

Best Quotes

  1. "Bitcoin is digital granite. When you're building any structure on granite, you can build a great structure. It's the foundation that matters."
  2. "It's like you're standing on the beach and you're watching the water wash over your feet and you're saying, what are the things that I can see in this little water, in this little frame right in front of me right now, and you're just looking down, and yet, if you avert your gaze to the horizon and you look out and you're like, 'Oh, hold on. When in doubt, zoom out.'"
  3. "Our mission is to deliver superior financing alternatives for people who choose to invest and save in Bitcoin... We want to provide them with the best financing tools, the best long-term financing tools, without mark-to-market risk, that enable them to express in the physical world, the physical manifestation of the dreams and objectives that they have in their mind."



The podcast episode with Andrew illuminated the future of finance through the lens of Bitcoin. It underscored the necessity to shift from conventional financial models to more innovative, long-term structures that leverage Bitcoin's properties. The conversation was a clarion call for embracing Bitcoin not only as a store of value but also as a foundational asset for developing new financing paradigms.

Bitcoin offers a path to economic empowerment and financial sovereignty. Its integration into traditional financial systems could potentially lead to a renaissance in various sectors, fostering growth, stability, and innovation. As we look toward the future, this episode serves as a pivotal discussion on Bitcoin's role in shaping a more resilient financial landscape.


0:00 - Intro
1:27 - Andrew’s background
15:53 - Discovering bitcoin
22:06 - Alloying bitcoin with credit
31:12 - Positive impact of Bitcoin’s unique use cases
45:40 - Debt crisis
54:38 - Gradually, Then Suddenly
55:17 - High/low time preference
1:00:55 - Applying bitcoin to financing
1:18:12 - Inflation
1:25:39 - Americans should embrace their bitcoin advantage
1:42:09 - Wrapping on Bitcoin Jawn


00:00:01:03 - 00:00:02:25
Andrew, this is a long time coming.

00:00:02:28 - 00:00:05:03
Yes, it is. I'm glad to be here.

00:00:05:06 - 00:00:09:17
I'm happy to have you here. This is your first podcast. You got to pull the my close. All right.

00:00:09:19 - 00:00:12:11
I learn how to do it. Learn the ways that Good.

00:00:12:13 - 00:00:17:10
Yes. Excellent. Been a long week.

00:00:17:12 - 00:00:18:04
Yeah. Good one.

00:00:18:08 - 00:00:19:23
You started in Philadelphia?

00:00:19:25 - 00:00:20:16

00:00:20:19 - 00:00:24:19
And you've been Road. Road Dog. And it ended up in Austin, Texas.

00:00:24:21 - 00:00:28:18
True. 18 hours drive in the last three days.

00:00:28:21 - 00:00:29:16
I don't know how you do it.

00:00:29:21 - 00:00:30:27

Yeah, well, it's good.

00:00:30:27 - 00:00:49:06
I mean, when you're. You know, when you have the opportunity to build on Bitcoin, it's inspiring, right? I mean, for me, it was not a big deal. I drove through Jefferson City, I went to Oklahoma City. I came down here to Austin, had a bunch of appointments in the region. So it's great to be here.

00:00:49:13 - 00:00:50:14
Yeah, it's great to have you here.

00:00:50:14 - 00:00:51:21
Thank you.

00:00:51:23 - 00:01:30:09
Not only here in the studio, but in Bitcoin. Thank you. More broadly. I'm really excited that we're finally able to do this. We've been talking about this for four years now, but the reason I'm excited because I think your story and how you came to Bitcoin or what you're doing within Bitcoin is very unique. Uh, and again, very exciting for the space because I think you're, um, leading the charge from the traditional financial world and trying to prove that you can do something with Bitcoin.

00:01:30:09 - 00:01:45:10
So before we jump into the future of finance, let's talk about the past, what you build it new market, what traditionally new market has been focused on, and why you decided to add a Bitcoin strategy to to the new market umbrella.

00:01:45:12 - 00:01:48:03
Yeah, for sure. No, I'm happy to.

00:01:48:05 - 00:01:52:10

Um. Well, I mean, my background.

00:01:52:13 - 00:02:32:15
Is about I mean, as traditional as it gets from a finance point of view. I've been working in credit banking finance for almost 25 years. I did Wharton undergrad. I graduated in 2000. My background was a little unusual. I also studied classical studies as an undergraduate and actually came into finance through a course that I took in my senior year, ancient Athenian banking, and I ended up the professor of that class is a very accomplished businessman and had started a number of banks and energy and real estate companies.

00:02:32:15 - 00:02:38:14
And I ended up joining him and his family and his son and working with them for many years.

00:02:38:16 - 00:02:39:04

We did a lot of.

00:02:39:04 - 00:03:01:22
Securitizations, pre GFC cash securitizations. I worked on a range of different assets bank trust, preferreds, insurance, trust preferreds, read CRT, uh, various kinds of mortgage debt, middle market commercial lending. I developed my sort of first product that I came up with just.

00:03:01:22 - 00:03:02:22

Before the GFC.

00:03:02:22 - 00:03:37:12
Which was a portfolio of tax exempt bonds by issue by small and medium sized institutions that were eligible to issue on a tax exempt basis, but not large enough to do their own bond offering. And so they were borrowing from local banks taxable. And I thought, well, that's kind of, you know, not ideal for hospitals, schools, public radio stations where the kinds of borrowers that we had in mind, institutions that needed anywhere between, let's say, 2 to $20 million of capital financing, not quite enough to do a big bond offering.

00:03:37:15 - 00:03:38:19

So we pooled we.

00:03:38:21 - 00:04:02:03
Had this idea to pull together a group of them from around the country and then issue tranches of financing, which would have different priorities of payment, could take advantage of the structured finance markets and deliver not only an efficient cost of financing to these borrowers, but do so in a tax exempt way. So we got that deal done.

00:04:02:03 - 00:04:18:16
But then at that point, the global financial crisis really took hold and I had a front row seat. We could talk about that. It was kind of interesting, more than kind of interesting. I was fascinated, but I've always been interested in doing new.

00:04:18:16 - 00:04:19:26

Things with finance.

00:04:19:26 - 00:04:27:01
And it became pretty clear to me that the opportunity to do things was, uh, that window is closing for.

00:04:27:01 - 00:04:28:09

A little while.

00:04:28:11 - 00:04:39:00
And my late grandfather, he always was telling me from the time that I was a teenager, he said, you know, he said you should get a PhD.

00:04:39:02 - 00:04:39:24

He said, I.

00:04:39:24 - 00:04:42:21
Think you should get it. But I didn't even know what a Ph.D. was.

00:04:42:24 - 00:04:46:11

But I always had in my mind his advice.

00:04:46:14 - 00:04:58:17
And as I progressed through, uh, you know, school, as I progressed through my undergrad, I did a master's degree at night after I graduated from undergrad in liberal arts at Penn.

00:04:58:19 - 00:05:01:02

And then the.

00:05:01:02 - 00:05:03:29
Global financial crisis came. I thought.

00:05:04:01 - 00:05:06:09

You know, this is this is this is.

00:05:06:09 - 00:05:26:22
Really the opportunity because I was already almost 30 years old, you know, which is, um, a little late to be starting the Ph.D. anyway, you know, on a conventional timetable. But I thought if it's not, it's now or never. You know, I felt a tap on my shoulder and, um, I applied. I applied to Wharton for the Ph.D. program, Applied Economics.

00:05:26:23 - 00:05:31:12
I was accepted, and I enrolled in the fall of 2008.

00:05:31:15 - 00:05:35:19

And, uh, you know, I was I was really.

00:05:35:19 - 00:05:50:23
Interested at that moment in thinking about how ancient moral philosophy about money lending could be used to think about what had just happened with the global financial.

00:05:50:23 - 00:05:53:21

Crisis. And so I started doing all.

00:05:53:21 - 00:06:18:23
These classes and religious studies and looking into, you know, Saint Ambrose. He has this incredible essay called Ditto by All from 394 or something A.D., when he was in Milan criticizing money lending. And one of my favorite lines, he says, debt is like, uh, a cup of poison with honey on the rim.

00:06:18:26 - 00:06:20:13

And but, you know.

00:06:20:13 - 00:06:21:21
Looking at all of these essays.

00:06:21:21 - 00:06:22:16


00:06:22:16 - 00:06:49:19
De Pisa, this incredible rabbi who wrote this handbook about how Jews could lend money in a way that was consistent with what's called the Deuteronomy exception, which is, you know, the tourist teaching about money lending at interest and without interest. And of course the same themes picked up in the core. And so I started I was exploring that and exploring like the first bankruptcy laws and so on.

00:06:49:19 - 00:06:53:05
And so forth. But my professors at Wharton, um.

00:06:53:07 - 00:06:55:20

They let me do it for a couple of years and then.

00:06:55:20 - 00:07:09:24
I got some really good advice, right? Life is all about good advice and following it. And, um, Bill Alpha, who became my dissertation chairman, great professor. He said, um.

00:07:09:27 - 00:07:12:09

He said, Listen, you know.

00:07:12:11 - 00:07:32:07
It's great that you've been doing this work, but we're not exactly suited here at Wharton to provide you the kind of critique that you're going to need to do a dissertation on this. He said, Could you maybe think about some topic that could be, um, you know, more in line with, with, with our expertise.

00:07:32:07 - 00:07:41:29

At the business school. So I thought about it and I was looking at that time a lot at synthetic securitization because, you know, the GFC.

00:07:42:01 - 00:08:06:27
I had done a lot of cash securitization where assets are actually sold into an SPV. The SPV actually owns the assets and it goes and gets ratings from a rating agency for the different liabilities that are issued. And those ratings facilitate the offering of securities to investors at a price that makes the financing really attractive. Overall, synthetic securitization is all about.

00:08:06:29 - 00:08:07:06


00:08:07:06 - 00:08:18:11
Owner of assets not selling them, but just buying a tranche of credit protection on the portfolio to optimize it for some reason or another. Economic capital, accounting capital, regulatory capital.

00:08:18:13 - 00:08:19:10

And I was.

00:08:19:10 - 00:08:23:18
Looking at synthetic securitization because.

00:08:23:21 - 00:08:27:21

I thought that it had, you know, when I was looking at the GFC.

00:08:27:21 - 00:08:33:17
That front row seat I was talking about, what I observed anyway was that a lot of the transactions, the underlying.

00:08:33:17 - 00:08:34:20

Assets, of.

00:08:34:20 - 00:08:48:07
Course some transactions had assets that ran into actual payment issues, right, like the subprime deals and so on and so forth. But there were a vast majority of the deals. The underlying assets were still performing, they were still paying their interest.

00:08:48:09 - 00:08:57:15

However, the cash securitizations that supported them, they had these rules that were uh.

00:08:57:17 - 00:08:59:23
Uh, monitored, let's say.

00:08:59:25 - 00:09:02:25

By third parties, like, for example, over.

00:09:02:25 - 00:09:04:29
Collateralization tests, which were.

00:09:04:29 - 00:09:05:16

Based on the.

00:09:05:16 - 00:09:12:27
Mark to market value of the underlying collateral in the portfolio or ratings driven tests about what percentage of the.

00:09:12:27 - 00:09:23:06

Portfolio had become triple serrated. And those kinds of tests, they were um, you know, in a moment of financial crisis.

00:09:23:06 - 00:09:26:18
The people that are marking it, they have every incentive to just lower the.

00:09:26:18 - 00:09:30:24

Marks. And so then that test was was failed and that produced.

00:09:30:24 - 00:09:36:26
A diversion of the cash flow away from the equity to turbo down the senior tranches.

00:09:36:28 - 00:09:39:16

And so the cost of the financing went up.

00:09:39:18 - 00:09:41:06
The leverage went way down.

00:09:41:08 - 00:09:48:19

The equity was shut off, but the debt, the assets supporting the securitization were actually performing the whole time in many instances.

00:09:48:19 - 00:10:01:06
And I thought this is a little crazy. So I've been looking at synthetic securitization, which didn't have those kinds of tests associated with it because it doesn't have the third party rating agency aspect.

00:10:01:08 - 00:10:02:29

And I started looking at.

00:10:02:29 - 00:10:05:10
It and I thought it was interesting.

00:10:05:12 - 00:10:06:15

And I began at the same.

00:10:06:15 - 00:10:27:19
Time to become really interested in infrastructure, finance and why I was why was the world not having infrastructure right in the right way, like, you know, almost a quarter of the world without electricity and safe drinking water, passable roads, basic infrastructure in the in the developing.

00:10:27:19 - 00:10:29:11

World and even in the developed.

00:10:29:11 - 00:10:37:05
World, infrastructure that wasn't in great shape, right, older, creaky, not doing what it needed to be doing.

00:10:37:07 - 00:10:38:20

And there are many.

00:10:38:21 - 00:10:53:14
Many reasons why that's the case. But the one that I really started to focus in on was the bank regulatory capital treatment of those assets and the high level of capital charges that banks were required.

00:10:53:14 - 00:10:54:18

To hold.

00:10:54:20 - 00:10:55:24
Against the infrastructure.

00:10:55:24 - 00:10:56:24

Loans. Not so much because.

00:10:56:24 - 00:11:12:15
They were infrastructure, but because the loans for the most part were unrated, not issued within corporate structures but issued by standalone vehicles. Owning that particular asset. There weren't that many of them, so they didn't lend themselves to statistical optimization.

00:11:12:18 - 00:11:14:20

And yet at the same time.

00:11:14:22 - 00:11:20:10
The performance of those assets was really good low defaults, high recoveries. And I thought.

00:11:20:11 - 00:11:22:22

Hmm, this is kind of a this is a little bit.

00:11:22:22 - 00:11:40:29
Of a, um, you know, a market failure right here. You have assets that are performing really well. They're essential to the economies in which they're located. They're producing the power, they're creating the roads, they're providing the runways for the planes to land on and therefore the commerce to travel by. But the banks can't really.

00:11:40:29 - 00:11:41:27

Make a lot of the loans.

00:11:41:27 - 00:11:42:13
Because they're.

00:11:42:13 - 00:11:45:07

Highly costly.

00:11:45:09 - 00:11:47:28
From a regulatory capital point of view. And I.

00:11:47:28 - 00:11:50:26

Thought, well, what if we use synthetic.

00:11:50:26 - 00:12:01:22
Securitization to provide an outlet for large global lenders to manage the capital on these portfolios of loans? And so.

00:12:01:24 - 00:12:02:25

Well, that was the.

00:12:02:25 - 00:12:38:29
Business version. The research version was called Justice and Infrastructure, which was focused on why is this all happening? And, you know, that may be policy. You know, at that time I hadn't really thought about Bitcoin that much, so I was really thinking what kind of policy could be used to change this structure so that maybe the regulatory capital charges for infrastructure could be lowered and that would make it easier for infrastructure loans to be made, but not expecting that that policy was going to be implemented as a result of my dissertation, which would instead collect dust on the library shelf Alpha.

00:12:39:05 - 00:12:46:08
He said, Why don't you do something about it? So you're uniquely situated to do something about it. You've worked in finance for ten years. You have this Wharton.

00:12:46:08 - 00:12:48:27

Education figured out, do.

00:12:48:27 - 00:12:50:29
Something about. So I thought that's that's good advice.

00:12:50:29 - 00:12:51:29


00:12:52:01 - 00:13:24:20
Um, I ended up getting back with an outfit called Mariner Mariner Investment Group, and we launched a first time strategy, which we call IFC International Infrastructure Finance Company. And since then it's gone on to we've raised several billion dollars of equity from large investors pension, sovereign wealth funds, insurance companies, and, um, we've invested in over $40 billion of infrastructure loans on bank balance sheets worldwide.

00:13:24:20 - 00:13:29:16
We've completed deals with many of the world's largest banks, a lot of.

00:13:29:19 - 00:13:30:18

Renewable energy, a.

00:13:30:18 - 00:13:44:16
Lot of conventional energy, transportation, infrastructure, social housing, um, utilities, some commercial real estate assets, but a range of different assets in over 50 countries around the world.

00:13:44:16 - 00:13:47:01

And yeah, I mean, so that's my background.

00:13:47:01 - 00:14:04:12
New market you know is structured credit asset manager Right. That's our that's our overall kind of DNA if you will. So we're always thinking about how can we optimize financing structures and, you know, deliver added value through tools of finance.

00:14:04:15 - 00:14:54:17
That's I never knew the back story of from your dissertation to IFC. I never connected those dots. That's really fascinating. But that's what led to that, particularly. But you mentioned at one point you didn't realize or you didn't realize that Bitcoin would come to exist while you're thinking about some of these strategies. When did you first catch on to the Bitcoin, the asset, and then what was the unlock in terms of like, holy crap, if I incorporate bitcoin into what I'm doing on the structured credit side, it can completely change the game because I think you've thoroughly convinced me and I think uh, obviously people on your team that adding Bitcoin to the world of

00:14:54:17 - 00:14:58:17
credit products is, is a game changer. Very disruptive.

00:14:58:24 - 00:15:13:22
Yeah. I'm so excited about the potential for really innovative finance and structures that are, that are built on and around bitcoin. We can, we can talk about some examples but um.

00:15:13:24 - 00:15:17:02

You know, I mean I first started, uh, look, I've.

00:15:17:02 - 00:15:42:05
Always been interested in financial history that's been like a major passion of mine for a long period of time. I mentioned I was a classical studies student in addition to Wharton and ancient Athenian banking. Right? Like, you know, I mean, I've been in tuned to, you know, like ancient coinage and go into that section of the archeology museum at the University of Pennsylvania.

00:15:42:05 - 00:16:06:00
There's a great coin collection. Um, or, you know, how have different commodities been used in different ways, you know, when all the has a wonderful intro to her book Broken Money where she's talking about all the different, you know, kinds of things that have been used as money over time, wampum, tobacco, etc., and the pluses and minuses of the different kinds of things.

00:16:06:02 - 00:16:25:21
And I've been following that, you know, in different ways for a long time, reading about it, so on and so forth. And I've always been interested in markets. You know, I've been reading the business section of the newspaper since I was a early teen and, you know, starting to invest and so on and so forth. You know, in stocks, little stocks here and there.

00:16:25:24 - 00:16:27:16

00:16:27:18 - 00:16:28:21

You know.

00:16:28:23 - 00:16:56:22
I always read Wall Street Journal and Financial Times and I remember distinctly the Mt. Gox news and reading about it and some of the, um, you know, some of the major media sources and I've been reading about Bitcoin for a while. I didn't really focus on it but have been aware of it. You know, I hadn't taken the time to really think about what does it mean, what's the protocol, how is it based, but always very open to digital ideas and new ideas.

00:16:56:22 - 00:16:57:24

00:16:57:27 - 00:17:00:06

Um, but I was building my business.

00:17:00:06 - 00:17:02:06
I was at Mariner and.

00:17:02:08 - 00:17:05:09

Uh, in 2020 we.

00:17:05:09 - 00:17:08:16
Spun out from Mariner and we started a new market.

00:17:08:19 - 00:17:09:13


00:17:09:13 - 00:17:31:12
That was in the spring of 2020. And when we did do that, um, you know, that was actually really the exact same time that the, um, COVID, uh, financial support. You know, what, what someone once referred to as a liquidity supernova burst over the world.

00:17:31:15 - 00:17:33:16

And I started.

00:17:33:18 - 00:17:57:07
Really thinking about the impact of that and thinking, you know, this is going to mean a lot for inflation, right? This is going to be and I started looking at my old academic books about inflation, and I went and I tried to buy some old books that there aren't that many. There's a great one if anyone is looking the wonderful book called A History and Analysis of Inflation by Don Paarlberg.

00:17:57:09 - 00:18:07:27
That's a great book, but it's hard to find. But uh, you know, there really aren't that many books about inflation. It's not a topic that people like to write about anyway.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:12:01

No, nobody talks about economic. It's a very small if you go to a.

00:18:12:03 - 00:18:22:21
Major library and you go to the economic history, the financial history section of the library is very small. Most people who are interested in finance, they follow the markets, right? They're saying like.

00:18:22:24 - 00:18:24:18

What is this doing today?

00:18:24:18 - 00:18:34:18
What is this commodity doing? What is this stock doing? And how do I position my portfolio to maximally take advantage of that for maybe even the day or the week or the month or the quarter?

00:18:34:20 - 00:18:35:27

Few people might say, how do.

00:18:35:27 - 00:18:37:09
I do it for a year or two.

00:18:37:09 - 00:18:38:29

Years? A very small group.

00:18:38:29 - 00:18:42:13
Of people say what could be a five year investment or a ten year investment?

00:18:42:14 - 00:18:44:00

Nobody is like.

00:18:44:03 - 00:18:55:19
You know, if I have to invest something for 100 years or 250 years, what should I invest? And maybe I should look at the economic history to see how these cycles repeat. And so as a result.

00:18:55:22 - 00:18:56:09

There's a huge.

00:18:56:09 - 00:19:02:21
Focus on, you know, this this, this short termism in financial markets.

00:19:02:23 - 00:19:03:20


00:19:03:24 - 00:19:05:06

00:19:05:09 - 00:19:10:07

And you know, at that time, March 2020, I really started.

00:19:10:07 - 00:19:11:20
Thinking about inflation.

00:19:11:22 - 00:19:13:13

We spun out.

00:19:13:15 - 00:19:22:08
I started, uh, myself getting more and more interested in Bitcoin, you know, proverbially going down the rabbit hole.

00:19:22:10 - 00:19:23:29

Uh, the more that I looked.

00:19:23:29 - 00:19:34:07
The more that I thought it was clear, elegant, transparent, fit for purpose. And, you know, that was the summer of Defi.

00:19:34:09 - 00:19:35:16

So I started.

00:19:35:16 - 00:19:37:11
Looking at, you know.

00:19:37:14 - 00:19:39:17

Uniswap and Pancakeswap.

00:19:39:17 - 00:19:45:25
And just ripping sushiswap, you know, and all of these other things. And you were farming yams?

00:19:45:26 - 00:20:09:20

Yeah, well, I was. I was like, I was reading, you know, these blogs, like, decrypt, and I just, I like I mean, maybe some people understand it. I couldn't understand it. I was like, What? What are these things? Like, like, why? Why are these adding value? And I thought to myself, you know, if if I can't really, like, see.

00:20:09:22 - 00:20:13:09
My way through to explaining how these, you know, of course some things are.

00:20:13:09 - 00:20:14:12

Adding value, but how these.

00:20:14:12 - 00:20:22:19
Things in general are adding value to the financial structure. Having had a like career for 20 years innovating around financial structures.

00:20:22:22 - 00:20:25:10

But then I kept on coming back to Bitcoin. I was like, you know, this.

00:20:25:10 - 00:20:25:23
Is really.

00:20:25:23 - 00:20:30:26

Making sense, right? And, you know, at some point.

00:20:30:26 - 00:20:36:29
I became Bitcoin only Bitcoin. Maxey You know, really focused on Bitcoin.

00:20:37:01 - 00:20:43:10

And then, uh, in, in around 2021.

00:20:43:13 - 00:20:55:26
A colleague of mine and I, we, we went to the Bitcoin conference in Miami and I was flying back and I was looking down at the houses from the airplane window.

00:20:55:28 - 00:20:58:26

And I was thinking to myself, how much Bitcoin is in these.

00:20:58:26 - 00:20:59:24

00:20:59:27 - 00:21:01:29
You know, I wonder about that one and that one.

00:21:02:03 - 00:21:04:03

Am I looking at 100 Bitcoin?

00:21:04:06 - 00:21:10:10
You know, I'm looking at 800 houses or 12,000 whatever. However many houses were in my site.

00:21:10:13 - 00:21:32:13

How much Bitcoin is down there and how are those people financing those houses? And then I started thinking, Well, what if we had a loan for those houses that was secured by both the Bitcoin and the house? And that was really the genesis of what.

00:21:32:13 - 00:21:37:16
Has proven to be a rich vein of, you know, ideation.

00:21:37:18 - 00:21:45:15

Around how Bitcoin can be integrated as a tool into long term.

00:21:45:15 - 00:21:46:29
Financing structures and.

00:21:46:29 - 00:21:57:01

How, you know, if you combine it with traditionally financeable assets, you can create.

00:21:57:03 - 00:22:04:24
Financing arrangements that provide really stable long term financing without mark to market risk.

00:22:04:29 - 00:22:08:25

On the Bitcoin. And the real unlock.

00:22:08:28 - 00:22:29:03
Is actually it goes back a little bit to some of the ancient moral philosophy. Islam, uh, Islamic orientation of finance in the Torah as well about not so much focusing on interest, but sharing in the risk sharing and the appreciation of the underlying assets. It's hard.

00:22:29:03 - 00:22:32:18

To share an appreciation when it's built in fiat.

00:22:32:24 - 00:22:54:03
Because it's like building on quicksand and is. But as Michael Saylor has helpfully analogized, Bitcoin is digital granite. And when you're building financing structures, when you're building any structure on granite, you can build a great stretch of great that's the foundation that matters. You know, you ever watch a skyscraper get built? It's like they announced that there's a skyscraper here.

00:22:54:06 - 00:22:57:23
They put up, you know, those little construction screens.

00:22:57:29 - 00:23:00:10

And but if you sort of peer through it.

00:23:00:12 - 00:23:02:16
They're like digging down, down, down.

00:23:02:16 - 00:23:18:10

You know, God, how far are they going to go? Where are they? Dig in to, you know, and they keep up and it takes forever. And then they start filling up that and it takes forever. And then once the foundation and all of the, you know, the bottom of the.

00:23:18:10 - 00:23:21:21
Building is in place and all the systems and everything.

00:23:21:24 - 00:23:23:03

It shoots up.

00:23:23:05 - 00:23:28:23
Right? You can build a skyscraper if you have the right foundation.

00:23:28:25 - 00:23:32:05

And it just started, you know, we started thinking like, actually.

00:23:32:05 - 00:23:38:23
You know, one analogy for us is that, you know, Bitcoin, because of its superior monetary characteristics.

00:23:38:25 - 00:23:49:16

If you mix it with credit, it's almost like financial steel. It's like just like you mix iron with manganese. And if you keep them separate, you have iron and you have.

00:23:49:16 - 00:23:53:07
Manganese and you can't build a skyscraper.

00:23:53:10 - 00:23:56:24

But if you alloy them, you have a steel.

00:23:56:27 - 00:24:06:21
And if you alloy credit and bitcoin in different proportions for different objectives, you can build with financial steel.

00:24:06:24 - 00:24:31:09
And what is it about Bitcoin specifically that makes this possible? Is it the fact that it's digital really salable liquid? All the above. Fungible. What's the most important characteristic of bitcoin? The asset that makes this?

00:24:31:11 - 00:24:33:28

I mean, what I love about.

00:24:34:00 - 00:24:57:04
Bitcoin is that you can spend, you know, a couple of hours a day and come up with all these new analogies. And there's so many people thinkers in the community that are coming up with new ways to new metaphors and new ways of thinking about Bitcoin. So bitcoin's a lot of different things. You know, it's, you know, the island of Manhattan before it's been developed every block, right?

00:24:57:04 - 00:25:02:14
It's digital granite. It's it's, it's, it's a monetary.

00:25:02:14 - 00:25:03:09

Fuel cell.

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:06:13
Right? It's all of these different incredible things.

00:25:06:16 - 00:25:07:18


00:25:07:20 - 00:25:34:25
Recently I've been reading, you know, it's gunpowder money, uh, because the idea being, of course, that, uh, you know, when the knights would suit up in their armor and put the armor in the Philadelphia Museum of Art, you know, if anybody loves armor, you should go. It's got a great armor exhibit. Really? Famous armor collection. It's amazing. It's got this big horse with all this armor on him and the lances and the swords, helmets.

00:25:35:02 - 00:25:35:22

It looks pretty.

00:25:35:22 - 00:25:37:00

00:25:37:03 - 00:25:38:20

But, you know, you mentioned you're a.

00:25:38:20 - 00:25:45:13
Gunpowder salesman and you're going around the various, you know, castles and you're saying, hey, I've got And the.

00:25:45:13 - 00:25:47:17

Guy says, look, we're we have.

00:25:47:17 - 00:25:57:16
A traditional approach, right? We've been fighting with armor for a long time. We use swords and lances. It's very honorable. And we're going to stick with our honorable approach.

00:25:57:16 - 00:26:01:14

So well, all right. But the gunpowder does have some good character. And the people who adopted.

00:26:01:14 - 00:26:02:17
The gunpowder.

00:26:02:20 - 00:26:03:02

Had such.

00:26:03:02 - 00:26:13:00
An asymmetric advantage when they went to battle that from a game theoretic point of view. Of course, it has to be adapted very quickly. And the ones that are adopted first benefit.

00:26:13:02 - 00:26:13:14


00:26:13:14 - 00:26:14:20
Is gunpowder money.

00:26:14:22 - 00:26:15:14

It's so.

00:26:15:14 - 00:26:17:07
Asymmetrically better. Why us?

00:26:17:07 - 00:26:18:10

Why? Well.

00:26:18:12 - 00:26:38:03
It's finite, right? Everyone knows not only is it finite, it's mostly issued. You know, as of 840,000 blocks, we're not that far away. 2500 blocks, more or less. It's going to be 93.75% already issued the new supply.

00:26:38:03 - 00:26:41:08

So the existing supply, the total supply is finite, new.

00:26:41:08 - 00:27:00:18
Supply is scarce, it's transparent, it's infinitely divisible, it is weightless, it is invisible, it is transportable 24 hours a day, seven days a week, anywhere around the world, from Tokyo to Taipei to Toronto to 10 a.m. Township. But, you know, it's it's.

00:27:00:20 - 00:27:01:02


00:27:01:02 - 00:27:07:11
Really backed by the largest computer network on Earth, by far, which is producing.

00:27:07:14 - 00:27:09:17

Is it is an X, a hash, a quintillion or a.

00:27:09:17 - 00:27:11:15
Quadrillion. I was reading.

00:27:11:18 - 00:27:13:04
A lecture hash.

00:27:13:05 - 00:27:15:12

Is 660 quadrillion.

00:27:15:12 - 00:27:15:24

00:27:15:24 - 00:27:21:10

Quadrillion or quintillion because I saw on Twitter somebody said quintillion. In any event, a lot of guesses.

00:27:21:10 - 00:27:22:19
Per second quadrillion.

00:27:22:19 - 00:27:22:28


00:27:23:04 - 00:27:23:28
Think it's quadrillion.

00:27:24:00 - 00:27:25:19
Well, we'll have to double check.

00:27:25:22 - 00:27:31:26
But it might be quintillion. Uh, trash is yeah.

00:27:31:27 - 00:27:35:12
Trillion terrorist trillion.

00:27:35:16 - 00:27:37:00
At a.

00:27:37:02 - 00:27:39:02
It would be quadrillion quadrillion.

00:27:39:04 - 00:27:39:19

00:27:39:22 - 00:27:44:28

Quintillion. Yeah. Okay. So we're like 660 quintillion.

00:27:44:28 - 00:27:48:20
Guesses per second that are secure.

00:27:48:25 - 00:27:52:19

And that's a lot of computing power and 830.

00:27:52:19 - 00:27:54:21
7000 some odd continuous.

00:27:54:21 - 00:27:55:23


00:27:55:25 - 00:28:08:21
And has functions with, you know, basically 100% uptime for 15 years as a cell functioning system in a transparent way. And it's being adopted, of course, by so.

00:28:08:21 - 00:28:11:17

Many people for for for really good.

00:28:11:17 - 00:28:20:16
Reason. Right. You know, sometimes people say, well, I'm not sure about Bitcoin. You know.

00:28:20:18 - 00:28:27:25

It comes down to a belief and sometimes people say Bitcoin is like a religion.

00:28:27:27 - 00:28:35:18
You know, those people, they're so religious, you know, they're like zealots, right? You know, But I.

00:28:35:18 - 00:28:36:02

Don't I don't.

00:28:36:02 - 00:28:39:01
Actually think about it that way, you know, because.

00:28:39:03 - 00:28:40:14

I'm not I'm not interested.

00:28:40:14 - 00:29:11:26
In Bitcoin because I feel that Satoshi Nakamoto received the Commandments on a mountaintop and inscribed them on some stone tablets and came down and there was a burning bush or something like that. I'm interested in Bitcoin because of the characteristics of Bitcoin, right? The fact that you have programmatic monetary supply, the fact that you can say, Hey, look, the year 2034 and 99% of all Bitcoin will have been issued the year 2047, 99.9% of all Bitcoin will have been issued.

00:29:11:29 - 00:29:20:14
The fact that you can audit it, the fact that it's transparent, the fact that it is, you know.

00:29:20:16 - 00:29:28:22

It's just a remarkable money that and then you compare it to the alternatives. And of course, you know.

00:29:28:27 - 00:29:36:02
There are a lot of different things that store value, right? Real estate, gold, silver, currency.

00:29:36:04 - 00:29:39:21

But, you know, Bitcoin is just clearly.

00:29:39:23 - 00:29:42:25
Superior monetary good.

00:29:42:28 - 00:30:11:04
Oh, that's I mean, we've talked about this a lot, too, and especially when you consider the debt situation that exists right now, particularly the federal debt. I mean, you were mentioning spinning out Mariner, spinning out of Mariner in 2020. I was shocked to learn, I think it was last week or the week before that The Treasury is issuing as much debt as we did in March and April 20, 20.

00:30:11:06 - 00:31:00:22
Right now, when you consider the relative stability the economy is is experiencing right now compared to the beginning of the lockdowns, it seems like we're I hate to be bombastic and use the word like we're in the middle of a death spiral. But it does feel like that when you look at the interest expense on the debt and the projections of that going completely parabolic, the fact that we're quietly issuing as much debt as we did in March and April 20, 20, and nobody seems to really be paying attention to that and needs that are the problems that exist in the Treasury market, the public debt markets.

00:31:00:25 - 00:31:32:15
It seems like there's something like Bitcoin needs to exist and people need to begin incorporating it into their lives as individuals and credit products to really save parts of the economy and to save everything but to to soften the blow, create that soft landing. But for individuals and institutions that are heavily exposed to the Treasury markets.

00:31:32:18 - 00:31:46:19

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a there are positive reasons to really be excited about Bitcoin and.

00:31:46:19 - 00:31:53:26
Then there are defensive reasons to really be excited about Bitcoin. I love to think about the positive reasons, right?

00:31:53:26 - 00:31:54:09

I mean.

00:31:54:09 - 00:31:55:22
Like my get into Dumber here.

00:31:55:23 - 00:31:57:11

No, I mean, like it's an important.

00:31:57:11 - 00:32:04:01
Perspective that you share and we can, you know, we can go into it. Obviously, it's a it's a key aspect. But.

00:32:04:04 - 00:32:05:24

You know, just because we have.

00:32:05:24 - 00:32:17:04
A lot of debt is like really far from the only reason that I think that Bitcoin is a very exciting tool to develop new financing structures, right? I think the Bitcoin is an incredibly exciting.

00:32:17:05 - 00:32:18:28

Tool to use.

00:32:18:28 - 00:32:27:27
In financing structures of many different types credit insurance, all kinds of different ideas that we have been developing. Um.

00:32:27:29 - 00:32:34:10

Because it does so many things, I mean, think about everything, what's being built on bitcoin, you know.

00:32:34:13 - 00:32:35:15
You have ERCOT.

00:32:35:18 - 00:32:36:23

There haven't been blackouts.

00:32:36:23 - 00:32:38:19
And brownouts in Texas in the last three.

00:32:38:19 - 00:32:45:11

Years. It's not because the weather's been less severe, it's because there's been four gigawatts of.

00:32:45:11 - 00:32:48:22
Bitcoin mining capacity, which is a moving valve.

00:32:48:25 - 00:32:50:29

That is able to.

00:32:51:00 - 00:33:13:16
Ramp up and ramp down in order to maintain stability on the grid. When people spike the thermostat or turn up the heat or turn off the air conditioning, uh, in difficult weather situations. And you know, the fact Bitcoin mining, it has these three characteristics, right? I mean, I'm not a Bitcoin mining expert, right? Like, not by far, but I play one on TV.

00:33:13:18 - 00:33:15:12

00:33:15:15 - 00:33:18:15
You know, but the way that I break it down is that.

00:33:18:18 - 00:33:19:02


00:33:19:02 - 00:33:24:24
Mining has three, three superpowers, right? Three unique properties.

00:33:24:27 - 00:33:27:20

Number one, it has an insatiable.

00:33:27:27 - 00:33:29:16
Appetite for energy.

00:33:29:18 - 00:33:30:14

It will eat as much.

00:33:30:14 - 00:33:32:26
Energy as you feed it. Number two.

00:33:32:29 - 00:33:34:04

It doesn't care if you stop.

00:33:34:04 - 00:33:39:20
Feeding it energy. You can start and stop and start and stop 18 times in one second or 33.

00:33:39:20 - 00:33:40:22

Times in a minute or.

00:33:40:22 - 00:33:44:15
Never in the next 16 weeks. And it just doesn't care. It's indifferent.

00:33:44:18 - 00:33:47:04

It doesn't harm that particular Bitcoin miner.

00:33:47:04 - 00:33:49:12
And it doesn't harm Bitcoin as a whole.

00:33:49:15 - 00:33:51:03

And number three, the third.

00:33:51:03 - 00:33:55:01
Factor is that it's the only large scale consumer of electricity.

00:33:55:04 - 00:33:58:16

Where you don't have to bring the electricity to it. You can bring it.

00:33:58:16 - 00:34:15:22
To the source of energy and the electricity. If that's, you know, if you transform the energy into that. Whereas every other large scale consumer of electricity factory, a university, a hospital, commercial refrigeration facility, aluminum smelter, they're all fixed in.

00:34:15:22 - 00:34:21:00

In in space. And that's obviously creating a huge.

00:34:21:00 - 00:34:43:24
Amount of innovation. Right? Methane recapture from landfills, orphaned oil well and natural gas well, transformation of those, you know, wasted gas into monetized value. Bitcoin, not just any monetized value, monetized value and gunpowder money. That's really good. What Gridley is doing in Africa is deeply inspiring. From a development finance point of view.

00:34:43:24 - 00:34:46:29

Because those villages are not.

00:34:46:29 - 00:34:54:13
Going to be on the grid any time soon. It's so costly to build out the grid to, you know, those remote areas.

00:34:54:13 - 00:34:55:17

But so many areas.

00:34:55:17 - 00:35:10:28
Of human civilization are already built on a river and that's a source of energy. Now you could put a hydro small-scale hydro power plant on that river anyway, without bitcoin, Bitcoin doesn't make the hydropower plant possible.

00:35:11:01 - 00:35:11:27

But without the.

00:35:11:27 - 00:35:16:20
Bitcoin, the village can't afford the infrastructure of that power plant. And when you.

00:35:16:20 - 00:35:16:28

Have the.

00:35:16:28 - 00:35:25:17
Bitcoin as the standby purchaser of whatever energy electricity is not used by that village, going back to the infrastructure piece from.

00:35:25:17 - 00:35:28:15

Before, you know, for me.

00:35:28:17 - 00:35:31:24
Infrastructure is a basic human right?

00:35:31:27 - 00:35:33:20

Mm hmm. Okay. If you can't.

00:35:33:20 - 00:36:04:00
Drink water where you can be sure that you're not going to get Asger, ISIS right. A 30 centimeter long nematode that affects like most recent that I read, which was some years ago, almost one out of every eight people in the world and reduces its quality adjusted life years by seven years and breeds in water because the water is used, you know, the night soil is used to farm the vegetables.

00:36:04:03 - 00:36:15:03
Nature oil, of course, is feces mixed with soil in order to create a kind of low grade fertilizer. The you know, I don't want to get too into it because people are going to get grossed out.

00:36:15:06 - 00:36:18:15

But the point is, is that, you know, if you can't trust.

00:36:18:15 - 00:36:20:03
The water that you drink.

00:36:20:05 - 00:36:21:07

If you can't turn on the.

00:36:21:07 - 00:36:21:21
Lights at.

00:36:21:21 - 00:36:26:15

Night and do homework or turn on the lights to.

00:36:26:17 - 00:36:35:22
Balance your books for the small business that you have or for your family or to charge your phone, which a lifeline in the modern world. You know, if you can't refrigerate.

00:36:35:29 - 00:36:42:24

Your food and your medicine, then your life is much more degraded.

00:36:42:24 - 00:36:55:01
You don't really have autonomy, not in not in a real sense. And electricity makes that possible. So I think electricity is a human right. And there are many, many places around the world without electricity.

00:36:55:04 - 00:36:55:27

And you can't build a.

00:36:55:27 - 00:36:59:15
Grid to them. It's not feasible.

00:36:59:17 - 00:37:04:16

But there are many places that are on a river and you can take.

00:37:04:16 - 00:37:07:12
A small scale hydro production facility.

00:37:07:15 - 00:37:13:22

And you can build a microgrid in that community and you can have the Bitcoin.

00:37:13:22 - 00:37:22:07
As the standby purchaser to make the economics work. And that's a creditworthy counterparty with no counterparty risk.

00:37:22:09 - 00:37:38:01

In a global network. Now you're tying that village into the global connected digital economy and making their lives vastly better. That's a remarkable use case for Bitcoin. And you can say the same thing about, you know, climate.

00:37:38:01 - 00:37:40:18
If you're you know, if you're interested in climate.

00:37:40:20 - 00:37:41:28

You know, you look at methane, right?

00:37:41:28 - 00:37:47:11
Methane is evidently much, much more dangerous than every other greenhouse gas.

00:37:47:13 - 00:38:17:06

And it's being spewed by all of these landfills. You know, why not go to the landfills and recapture that methane, turn it into electricity, monetize that electricity into Bitcoin, and turn your landfills into small scale electrical power plants. And by the way, if you want, you know, you could create electric vehicle charging station there for your municipality to take your electric vehicle, fire trucks and school busses and charge them overnight.

00:38:17:09 - 00:38:35:04

And when they're out doing their municipal activities, just hash Bitcoin during the day, you know, you can create these circular solution circular economy solutions that are really fascinating, and that's just energy. And beyond energy, you know, you have I mean, something like cyber.

00:38:35:04 - 00:38:48:17
Walls, right? You know, and Michael Saylor has talked a lot about this. Very interestingly, you know, our organizations not going to receive an email from another one unless it has some stats associated with it or.

00:38:48:19 - 00:38:54:04

You know, unless we have some Bitcoin on deposit and unless the sender has big, verifiable.

00:38:54:04 - 00:39:00:06
Bitcoin on deposit, these organizations, it'll just be automatically rejected from that cyber dome.

00:39:00:09 - 00:39:12:03

And you can imagine use cases, you know in, in the real world similar use because bitcoin is scarcity and there's so many things that humans.

00:39:12:03 - 00:39:13:24
Have that are based on scarce. You know a.

00:39:13:24 - 00:39:17:03

Co op in New York, you live in a co-op in New York City.

00:39:17:05 - 00:39:21:22
You know, they do all this analysis of, you know, the financial wherewithal of the person. So.

00:39:21:25 - 00:39:27:04

Well, what if instead of all of that, they said, look, in order to live in this co-op in New York City, you need to.

00:39:27:04 - 00:39:39:28
Verifiably have one Bitcoin or five Bitcoin in an address at all times. And you're going to get, you know, this, you know, your key to enter is going to have an RFID.

00:39:39:28 - 00:39:40:14

In it.

00:39:40:16 - 00:39:46:09
And the RFID is only going to function if, you know the Bitcoin is verifiably there.

00:39:46:12 - 00:39:52:10

And when Bitcoin is 70,000, it's $350,000. That's a lot of money. But when Bitcoin.

00:39:52:10 - 00:39:53:29
Is a million, it's 5 million.

00:39:54:05 - 00:40:02:21

When it's 10 million, that's 50 million. And so you can create really interesting physical, you know. Gates You can create digital gates.

00:40:02:21 - 00:40:09:18
All of these cyber walls are remarkably interested in SATs.

00:40:09:18 - 00:40:15:15
Streaming is happening right now as people listen to this.

00:40:15:18 - 00:40:25:20

It's happening right now and it's so early days. I mean, when you think about, uh, you know, when you have when you have.

00:40:25:20 - 00:40:34:07
Sound that's moving at different frequencies, you create a symphony, right? When when you have money.

00:40:34:09 - 00:40:35:27

Money right now you do.

00:40:36:00 - 00:40:39:27
You do a structured credit transaction. You buy all these assets, they.

00:40:39:29 - 00:40:44:07

Collect their interest. The interest is collected by some trustee every 90 days.

00:40:44:07 - 00:40:45:18
It's run through this waterfall.

00:40:45:18 - 00:40:55:05

Everybody gets it. You know, if you could do that continuously, right, it opens up it opens up a symphony.

00:40:55:07 - 00:41:06:15
For financial transactions. You know, I was reading today in Milken Institute quarterly letter about the future of payments in the U.S. And some was saying, well.

00:41:06:18 - 00:41:07:21

You know, small scale.

00:41:07:21 - 00:41:09:24
Continuous payments is going to be when you get in.

00:41:09:24 - 00:41:10:23

Your car.

00:41:10:25 - 00:41:17:21
And you start to drive, you can just stream a payment to the insurance company. So you're paying just based.

00:41:17:23 - 00:41:18:25
How much you actually drive.

00:41:18:26 - 00:41:22:02
How much you actually drive. And only when you're driving.

00:41:22:05 - 00:41:28:03

And, you know, sometimes people like to do things that are, you know, a little risky.

00:41:28:06 - 00:41:39:09
Where where sometimes people, you know, get hurt like, you know, like skiing. Right. Skiing is a sport where people sometimes have bad injuries, unfortunately.

00:41:39:11 - 00:41:42:19

And, you know, maybe if you get on the ski slope.

00:41:42:21 - 00:41:54:07
You start streaming your SATs while you're skiing in order to have a contingent life insurance product just at that time, you know, or a contingent injury risk product.

00:41:54:07 - 00:41:57:08

And you can just start to imagine all of these.

00:41:57:08 - 00:41:59:24
Different use cases for SATs, streaming.

00:41:59:27 - 00:42:01:09

Cyber walls, e.

00:42:01:09 - 00:42:02:04

00:42:02:04 - 00:42:02:21

Payments and.

00:42:02:21 - 00:42:09:12
Remittances. I mean, what Jack is doing is incredible check mailers. Strike is an amazing company.

00:42:09:15 - 00:42:11:08

And, you know, long.

00:42:11:08 - 00:42:14:19
Bitcoin short Western Union is so obvious to me.

00:42:14:21 - 00:42:32:06

And it's like when you so so there are all of these positive developments that actually don't particularly pertain to Bitcoin, a store of value there. You know, as Jack has so eloquently said.

00:42:32:09 - 00:42:32:21

00:42:32:21 - 00:42:33:15

The best use case.

00:42:33:15 - 00:42:34:00
For Bitcoin.

00:42:34:00 - 00:42:34:13

Number one.

00:42:34:13 - 00:42:49:23
Use case for Bitcoin is by far the best savings technology on the planet. That pertains to 8 billion people. It pertains to however many millions of companies, however many nonprofits, charities, governments, everyone can use it for all of these different savings conservation.

00:42:49:25 - 00:42:50:26

Bitcoin is capital.

00:42:50:26 - 00:43:07:05
Conservation, right? Because it's a fixed number. It has all of these characteristics. It's a very conservative approach to, you know, as Michael Saylor has said, right, you're etching your labor and your capital into a granite ledger. That can never change if you if one of the things you said I love.

00:43:07:07 - 00:43:09:05

If you were a creature that had a life span of.

00:43:09:05 - 00:43:19:27
10,000 years, what would you save? And, you know, and that's a very interesting rhetorical question. It's not a rhetorical really. He he he's provided a clear path.

00:43:20:00 - 00:43:44:21

So you have the savings technology, but then you have all of these other use cases that are that are not savings use cases. They're based on the different capabilities that have that exist within the protocol that have been developed on the protocol. And those all reinforce the value proposition of the savings tool, because they're all demanding they're either strengthened in the protocol, such.

00:43:44:21 - 00:43:45:04
As in these.

00:43:45:04 - 00:44:02:06

Mining activities, or they're utilizing some Bitcoin. So there are a separate source of demand for the Bitcoin, even ordinal, a separate source of demand for the Bitcoin. But they're not directly savings tools. And that is like.

00:44:02:12 - 00:44:03:21
You know.

00:44:03:23 - 00:44:04:08


00:44:04:08 - 00:44:37:03
Million percent. What's fascinating about creating financing structures and structured credit, structured finance vehicles around this asset. Now over here, back to your doom in question, right? Is you know, that's a little bit of a different story, right? Because it's like 1981, we had $1 trillion of debt. And I remember I remember when I graduated from college.

00:44:37:06 - 00:44:43:24

David Walker came to give a little presentation at the University of Pennsylvania. He was the former.

00:44:43:24 - 00:44:46:02
Comptroller of the United States.

00:44:46:05 - 00:44:53:17

And he was at the Pete Peterson Institute. And he was saying, you know, you know, to all you.

00:44:53:17 - 00:45:01:05
Youngsters here, right. All you all you people in your early twenties, you know, the federal funded debt right now, I can't remember what it was.

00:45:01:05 - 00:45:03:15

For 4 trillion.

00:45:03:18 - 00:45:10:17
But we see this on a non-sustainable path. And we think that by the year 2035, there's going to be a real crisis.

00:45:10:17 - 00:45:17:03

Why do we choose 2035 Social Security? Right. It's hiding in plain sight. And fast.

00:45:17:03 - 00:45:18:09

00:45:18:11 - 00:45:21:18

And now, you know, here we are.

00:45:21:18 - 00:45:25:23
We're at 34 and a half trillion dollars worth of debt.

00:45:25:25 - 00:45:27:00

By the way. We were at 30.

00:45:27:00 - 00:45:50:14
Three in September of last year. Right. We've added more and more debt in less than six months than it took us in the first however many years. You know, 200 and some odd years of, you know, the country's history. And it's not just the federal funded debt. Obviously, you know, you have the states, right. You have all of the pensions which are in general underfunded.

00:45:50:16 - 00:46:13:11
From an asset to liability perspective, you have the Social Security, which has only one asset, as you know, which are U.S. Treasuries, which are not exactly inflation resistant and where the income from them is, you know, the interest on them is paid from, you know, it's rather more somewhat circular. Um, Medicare. And then you have Gen X, you know, Gen X I read a study the other day.

00:46:13:11 - 00:46:26:15
I didn't like fact check it, I just read it. It was on ZeroHedge, it was several months ago, said 40% of Gen X has zero save for retirement and the average is 40,000 save for retirement.

00:46:26:17 - 00:46:31:27

And you look for and you know, and so I think it's pretty clear.

00:46:32:00 - 00:46:49:00
The direction of travel and it's not just the U.S. obviously the same circumstances applicable and you know, in different, you know, different variations on the theme. Right. But in general, a lot of the developed world has really, um.

00:46:49:02 - 00:46:50:17

A lot of a lot of debt.

00:46:50:23 - 00:47:13:18
And, you know, most of the currencies around the world are liability money. And so in order to promote economic growth, the governments in one way or another create new money through new liabilities and, you know, pertains to Japan, it pertains to Europe, it pertains to Canada, you know, all of these different places. And, um, you know, and that's.

00:47:13:18 - 00:47:28:21

Definitely, um, it's definitely, you know, on, on my mind because if you think about credit, you know, credit, um, you know, people need income.

00:47:28:24 - 00:47:29:14

00:47:29:16 - 00:47:33:16

For legitimate reasons. You know, if you're, if you're a.

00:47:33:17 - 00:47:41:11
Pension, you need income to pay your beneficiaries, right? You can't just like not have income.

00:47:41:16 - 00:47:45:21

You have you have firefighters, you have teachers, you have, you know.

00:47:45:24 - 00:47:48:01
Whoever the beneficiaries are.

00:47:48:03 - 00:47:48:24

And you need to.

00:47:48:24 - 00:47:50:14
Be able to meet the.

00:47:50:14 - 00:47:51:16


00:47:51:18 - 00:47:56:01
Obligations that you have if you're an insurance company, you have to be able to pay out on claims.

00:47:56:01 - 00:47:58:11

If you're a university.

00:47:58:11 - 00:48:05:21
You have to be able to pay a certain amount in order to fund your scholarships and your research and whatever your current initiatives are. Any charity.

00:48:05:21 - 00:48:08:06

If you're a family, you need income for for.

00:48:08:06 - 00:48:16:06
Those reasons. If you're an individual, you may need income. So people need income. They can't just not invest in income.

00:48:16:08 - 00:48:20:09

And it's very helpful because you're exchanging.

00:48:20:12 - 00:48:22:18
You know, your capital.

00:48:22:21 - 00:48:23:05

For a.

00:48:23:05 - 00:48:32:29
Current stream income with somebody who has a long term plan. And that's like kind of exchange of capital and how the world works for capital formation and.

00:48:33:01 - 00:48:38:01

Building things, which is good. Um, but if you have this.

00:48:38:01 - 00:48:40:10
Inflation that is happening.

00:48:40:10 - 00:48:41:24

Even though I mean the federal funded.

00:48:41:24 - 00:48:48:21
Debt I ran on, you know, Twitter, I don't and you know, I also read the Wall Street Journal but.

00:48:48:23 - 00:48:49:00


00:48:49:03 - 00:48:57:12
I read on Twitter the other day that the five year compound annual growth rate of the federal funded debt is 9.24%.

00:48:57:14 - 00:49:03:12

That's big, right? And, you know, if you you know, if you have a 7%.

00:49:03:14 - 00:49:12:13
You know, real, real inflation, I'm not talking about CPI or PC or, you know I'm talking about like, you know, if you want to, you know, look at look at price.

00:49:12:15 - 00:49:15:27
In two cappuccinos and a chocolate son, it's $23.

00:49:15:27 - 00:49:16:13


00:49:16:15 - 00:49:22:00
Right. We experienced that this morning, $23 for two cappuccinos and one chocolate croissant.

00:49:22:02 - 00:49:39:21

And that is, you know, $23. I mean, that's like it's a lot of money. That's over 30,000. That's right. It's like 35,000. So that's that's a lot of money. And it's just going up and, um.

00:49:39:24 - 00:49:42:08
You know, everyone sees it.

00:49:42:10 - 00:49:43:00

And Len.

00:49:43:00 - 00:49:54:27
Len all and posted this great graph today, which is, you know, how inflation is reported and it's obviously the current rate of inflation. Oh, it went down so and so forth, how people experience inflation and it's just a cumulative.

00:49:54:27 - 00:49:57:00
The index like over 320.

00:49:57:00 - 00:49:58:03
Yeah exactly.

00:49:58:03 - 00:50:03:17

Right. And and that's that is how it feels. Right. And so if you just get back 100.

00:50:03:18 - 00:50:11:21
Dollars on the you know, you get back PA on your, on your income oriented investment in five years or ten.

00:50:11:21 - 00:50:14:10

Years, that's potentially.

00:50:14:12 - 00:50:17:23
Really value destructive from a real point of view.

00:50:17:25 - 00:50:20:29

And so, you know, essentially if.

00:50:20:29 - 00:50:24:27
You combine actually, you know, a small.

00:50:24:27 - 00:50:26:09

Amount of Bitcoin.

00:50:26:12 - 00:50:28:03
With a large amount of.

00:50:28:03 - 00:50:38:12

It could be even high quality credit. The transformation of those two things protects significantly provides a significant.

00:50:38:12 - 00:50:50:08
Hedge against the inflation risk, provides an upgrade overall to the stability of the income stream. Um, participates in all of this positive kind of.

00:50:50:15 - 00:50:51:19

You know, possibilities.

00:50:51:19 - 00:50:59:02
Around everything that's being built on on Bitcoin. And it really just, it allows for.

00:50:59:02 - 00:51:02:03

A whole new, whole new path.

00:51:02:03 - 00:51:08:09
Of thinking about structured finance that I think is just incredibly fascinating.

00:51:08:12 - 00:51:50:03
And the, I mean, the going back to the like in these credit products, you have a line of fixed income from revenue cash flowing entity your investment in these liabilities in dollars which are deflating over time, you have to get more dollars to sustain the purchasing power you have historically, like you said, like flipping that, adding Bitcoin into this where as a business, as a company, if you have Bitcoin within a credit product, you're equity position within this structure is getting better throughout time as Bitcoin.

00:51:50:03 - 00:51:52:08
Yeah. Monetizes Yeah.

00:51:52:10 - 00:51:52:23

I mean there are a.

00:51:52:23 - 00:51:54:27
Million of examples. Okay, literally.

00:51:54:27 - 00:52:04:03
So it introduces patient capital to this capital structure. Capital that actually works for you. Yeah.

00:52:04:06 - 00:52:06:16

I mean.

00:52:06:18 - 00:52:37:12
Look, 1031 is an amazing, amazing, uh, you know, full disclosure. So, you know, it's a new market founded a company, battery battery finance is focused on built on Bitcoin institutionally oriented asset management strategies that are value added. Right. So and 1031 is a partner in battery finance, but am housing partner but 1031 has called their funds the low time preference funds.

00:52:37:19 - 00:52:43:08
And there's in Bitcoin there's this idea low time preference, lower your time preference.

00:52:43:10 - 00:52:44:28

And Michael Saylor says if you were a.

00:52:44:28 - 00:52:50:27
Creature that had a lifespan of 10,000 years, what would you invest? That's a very low time preference.

00:52:51:00 - 00:52:55:02

But the thing is, I'm not familiar.

00:52:55:05 - 00:52:58:06
With creatures that do have lifespans of 10,000.

00:52:58:06 - 00:53:00:21

Years, right? Like 10,000.

00:53:00:21 - 00:53:04:21
Years ago was what, eight, 8000 B.C.?

00:53:04:24 - 00:53:05:24

I mean, which which are the.

00:53:05:24 - 00:53:06:12

00:53:06:12 - 00:53:06:27


00:53:06:27 - 00:53:11:15
That were maybe a shark that people have found that they say has been around for like a thousand years?

00:53:11:17 - 00:53:15:00
I have this friend who.

00:53:15:02 - 00:53:28:27
Went ahead to do this, but I'm like, it's stomach is going crazy and I'll be right back. Okay? Yeah. Target to 10,000 your animals which exist. The question of.

00:53:29:01 - 00:53:30:14
Oh, I remember when I was gonna say, okay.

00:53:30:15 - 00:53:32:12
Yeah. The question was.

00:53:32:14 - 00:53:33:03
Are we recording.

00:53:33:03 - 00:53:34:11


00:53:34:14 - 00:53:52:23
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I had to take a little break there, freaks. But yeah, the question is like, how does injecting, uh, an asset that allows you to be more patient within a credit product or just more patient broadly into a credit product? Change the future of finance?

00:53:52:23 - 00:53:54:29

Yeah, well, we were talking about.

00:53:54:29 - 00:54:26:00
You know, low time preference, right? And, um, you know, we go right into an example that I was going to tell a little funny story about my friend to propose to his girlfriend, his longtime girlfriend, and they were like real history buffs and, you know, nuts. And they went to Saint Helena, right? And there's apparently there's this hotel in Saint Helena where there's this old tortoise named Jonathan, who's like 200 years old.

00:54:26:03 - 00:54:43:27
And he surprised her by putting the engagement ring on a box and tying a ribbon around the tortoise. And the tortoise, like, slowly walked over. And I don't know, I wasn't there, so but it must have been, like, kind of funny. But apparently then unveiled this wedding ring on the back of the tortoise.

00:54:44:00 - 00:54:59:01

That's like a 200 year old creature, you know? And Michael Saylor is talking about this 10,000 year could this creature with a 10,000 year lifespan. And that's a fascinating, fascinating idea. And I think it's clear you which is.

00:54:59:01 - 00:55:12:07
Bitcoin because as he helpfully points out, you know, Gramercy Park 600 years ago was, you know, was a forest or a swamp and, you know, even the city of London. Right. 2500 years ago, you know, would it be gold? Are you going to hold on.

00:55:12:07 - 00:55:20:17

To the gold for that long, even if you did, By the way, the amount of gold that if I gave you one ounce of gold in 19.

00:55:20:17 - 00:55:37:06
89 and pressed that ounce of gold into your hands. So keep this for your you know, your child is going to be born this year, you know, and give it to them when they're 35 years old.

00:55:37:08 - 00:55:41:00

And you put it in the drawer and you keep it and then your.

00:55:41:00 - 00:55:44:07
Child turns 35 here in the year 2024.

00:55:44:10 - 00:56:06:02

And you still remember it. You pull it out, you look at it's beautiful, it's got all the same design, it's gleaming, it hasn't rusted. It's it weighs the same amount. It's still an ounce of gold, but in terms of purchasing power of the gold gold protocol, it's about half as much because there are around 90,000 metric tons.

00:56:06:02 - 00:56:12:17
Of gold at that time. And now there's about 180,000. And that's because every year gold grows by about 2%. And that's not changing and it may grow.

00:56:12:17 - 00:56:13:25

By a lot more.

00:56:13:27 - 00:56:17:11
If, you know, asteroid mining or deep sea or.

00:56:17:11 - 00:56:18:15


00:56:18:18 - 00:56:22:24
Or maybe even synthetic gold. Right. Just like laboratory diamonds.

00:56:22:26 - 00:56:25:29

And so although the substance itself hasn't.

00:56:25:29 - 00:56:27:00

00:56:27:02 - 00:56:28:09

It's you know.

00:56:28:09 - 00:56:41:09
The denominator of of it has been growing all around it. It's the same effect for for for fiat currency. It's just the denominator is obviously growing much, much more quickly than the inflation natural inflation rate of gold.

00:56:41:09 - 00:56:44:16

Or silver or but Bitcoin.

00:56:44:16 - 00:56:45:26
Has no natural inflation.

00:56:45:26 - 00:56:51:10

Rate. And so that makes it a really sensible tool for a creature with a.

00:56:51:10 - 00:56:53:07
Life span of 10,000 years.

00:56:53:10 - 00:56:54:05

Or for someone who can.

00:56:54:05 - 00:56:56:05
Project 30 years or 50 years into the.

00:56:56:05 - 00:56:57:07

Future and.

00:56:57:07 - 00:57:01:07
Their interest in financing structures. For that, we can talk about an example.

00:57:01:09 - 00:57:06:06

But you know, low time preference, there are things that you actually.

00:57:06:09 - 00:57:08:12
You can't lower your time preference, you know.

00:57:08:12 - 00:57:08:25

If you're going to.

00:57:08:25 - 00:57:39:01
Make an important investment that pertains to the adolescence of of of of of one of your children, the adolescence is a limited period of time. Right. If you want to make that investment pertain, you know, like, for example, if you want to send them to a certain school or provide them with extra education of a certain type, um, or, you know, have a swing set in the backyard if you have all.

00:57:39:01 - 00:57:39:18

Of your money in.

00:57:39:18 - 00:57:48:18
Bitcoin and it's 70,000, you're like, Oh no, I'm hodling until it's, you know, 7 million, you know, no, I'm not selling my bitcoin.

00:57:48:20 - 00:57:49:12

Well, then you're not getting.

00:57:49:12 - 00:57:50:16
The swing set.

00:57:50:18 - 00:57:50:26


00:57:50:29 - 00:57:51:10

00:57:51:11 - 00:57:59:12
Right? Tough luck. And if you're waiting until it's 7 million, which might happen in, I don't know, 20, 35, who knows, whatever.

00:57:59:14 - 00:58:03:20

Well, the kids, they're not going to be wanting to swing anymore, you know, because their.

00:58:03:21 - 00:58:06:07
You know, their time preference match up necessarily.

00:58:06:07 - 00:58:09:28

And so the transformation and the same thing.

00:58:09:28 - 00:58:12:16
Pertains to a business investment. You know, at some.

00:58:12:16 - 00:58:16:25

Point in your life, if you want to open up a pizzeria, you maybe want to start that in your twenties.

00:58:16:25 - 00:58:18:24
Or your thirties or your forties, you want to start.

00:58:18:24 - 00:58:24:07

It in your eighties. Maybe some people do, but not everybody. And so the time preference, you know, Bitcoin is immortal.

00:58:24:07 - 00:58:27:00
But humans are not right. And so.

00:58:27:02 - 00:58:34:04

The transformation of time preference is something that can be facilitated through capital markets because you can.

00:58:34:04 - 00:58:35:11
Exchange some of.

00:58:35:11 - 00:58:43:25

The future growth of the Bitcoin, which you're not going to see because you're not going to live forever. You can exchange some of that future for.

00:58:43:25 - 00:58:45:04
Entities that will.

00:58:45:04 - 00:58:46:05

Live forever.

00:58:46:07 - 00:58:47:03
I.e. financial.

00:58:47:03 - 00:58:52:25

Companies who can provide you with funding to achieve a goal today.

00:58:52:27 - 00:58:56:06
Or a goal over the next year, or the next five years.

00:58:56:08 - 00:59:06:11

And if that goal is starting a new business or investing in your current business, that might be your best path to stacking more Bitcoin in the first place. And so, you know, there are really.

00:59:06:11 - 00:59:35:20
Interesting ideas now to bring it, you know, to to to pilot the plane, you know, down from 30,000 feet to 5000. I'll give you just, you know, just one example. And there are many examples, right? This pertains to commercial real estate project financing and equipment financing and corporate lending. There are many consumer applications. I'll share consumer application because I think it really illustrates the potential.

00:59:35:20 - 00:59:45:11
You know, of course, you have to figure out how do we navigate all of the regulatory, consider all of that stuff. Right. But just as a as a thought experiment for finance in structure, right.

00:59:45:13 - 00:59:49:12

So let's say you want to buy a house.

00:59:49:15 - 01:00:16:04
Um, maybe. Look, I'm. I'm from Philly. Know, I know that area. You know, the best I guess. And you know so median home I think in Philadelphia, something like $300,000 and you want to buy a median home city of Philadelphia, $300,000. By the way, the average age of the housing stock is 90 years. And so that's pretty expensive to maintain, you know, because older homes, they.

01:00:16:07 - 01:00:17:14

They have more maintenance and upkeep.

01:00:17:14 - 01:00:27:26
Costs and maybe have to replace the roof or it has older systems and, you know, all of those issues are embedded into it. And not only does that particular home have those issues, but every home around it and the.

01:00:27:26 - 01:00:29:08

Whole neighborhood.

01:00:29:11 - 01:00:30:08
To a certain extent, the whole.

01:00:30:08 - 01:00:34:04

City. But in any event, you want to buy a $300,000 house.

01:00:34:04 - 01:00:35:14

01:00:35:16 - 01:00:36:06

You finance it.

01:00:36:06 - 01:00:37:14
How do you finance it? Let's say you.

01:00:37:14 - 01:00:42:19

Finance it with an 80% loan to value 30 year.

01:00:42:19 - 01:00:51:28
Fixed rate mortgage. I was looking at CNBC this morning and flashed on the screen National average 6.99%.

01:00:52:00 - 01:00:58:28

So I did a little calculation and um, you know, the monthly payment.

01:00:59:01 - 01:01:01:12
On that is.

01:01:01:15 - 01:01:02:15

A little bit more than six.

01:01:02:20 - 01:01:03:13
Hundred dollars for.

01:01:03:13 - 01:01:04:06

Principal and.

01:01:04:06 - 01:01:06:10
Interest only not pertaining.

01:01:06:10 - 01:01:10:08

To insurance or property taxes, just principal.

01:01:10:08 - 01:01:15:28
And interest so you pay I can't remember exactly 625 or sometimes pay six.

01:01:16:01 - 01:01:21:02

Hundred dollars a month for 30 years and you own.

01:01:21:04 - 01:01:24:00
This house. What do you have at the end of it? Well.

01:01:24:02 - 01:01:24:23

You have one.

01:01:24:23 - 01:01:43:24
Hundred percent equity position in an idiosyncratic asset, highly concentrated risk. It is so emotional right where you live. The only way to access that equity is to either borrow against it again or to sell it, and either one of which may be exactly ideal based on, you know, the time of life or the circumstances.

01:01:43:26 - 01:01:49:20

The value of the home depends heavily on whether you've been able to invest.

01:01:49:20 - 01:01:56:29
In it over time for planned and unplanned maintenance or renovations or changing needs or what have.

01:01:56:29 - 01:02:04:06

You. Not only is your ability to manage those factors heavily influential on the value of the.

01:02:04:06 - 01:02:07:07
Property, but also the properties on either side of.

01:02:07:07 - 01:02:11:14

You and their ability to manage all of these complex factors.

01:02:11:14 - 01:02:12:04
And whether they held.

01:02:12:04 - 01:02:15:18

Onto their job or didn't or moved or how frequently they moved and.

01:02:15:20 - 01:02:20:04
Is or were their rooves repaired and is it painted? Are you live in a duplex or row.

01:02:20:04 - 01:02:27:18

Home or what have you? And then the whole block and then not only the whole block, but the neighborhood. And that's kind of, uh.

01:02:27:20 - 01:02:32:04
Path dependent as well, because some neighborhoods have, you know, gentrified and so they have a.

01:02:32:04 - 01:02:33:28

Yoga studio.

01:02:33:28 - 01:02:37:22
Or some fancy restaurants or some popular restaurants or maybe there was.

01:02:37:22 - 01:02:38:08

A municipal.

01:02:38:08 - 01:02:40:20
Project to build a park in the area. And that's led.

01:02:40:20 - 01:02:51:10

To a renewal. But there are more neighborhoods that haven't had that kind of renewal than there are that have. And not only that, but also the health of the broader community.

01:02:51:10 - 01:02:51:20

01:02:51:20 - 01:02:55:16

In terms of like if you're if you're a public.

01:02:55:16 - 01:02:56:17
School teacher.

01:02:56:20 - 01:02:59:04

And you buy a median home and you're a public school.

01:02:59:04 - 01:03:00:23
Teacher in in.

01:03:00:26 - 01:03:02:06

In in Nashville.

01:03:02:06 - 01:03:04:10

01:03:04:12 - 01:03:05:13

Then the median home that.

01:03:05:13 - 01:03:10:17
You purchased has done better than if you were a public school teacher in Knoxville, Tennessee.

01:03:10:19 - 01:03:12:20

But if you were a public school.

01:03:12:20 - 01:03:22:11
Teacher in Nashville, Tennessee, or Knoxville, Tennessee, you've done better than if you purchased the median home as a public school teacher in Worcester, Massachusetts, or Springfield, Massachusetts.

01:03:22:14 - 01:03:27:29

And yet both places need public school teachers, both places need bookkeepers.

01:03:27:29 - 01:03:34:19
And, you know, all kinds of different. Right. You know, Richard, scary. What do people do all day? Right. There's a lot of different jobs in the.

01:03:34:19 - 01:03:55:25

World and everywhere needs them, you know, butchers, bakers and, you know, bean counters and everything. And just because, you know, I don't think it should be, you know, so arbitrary that, you know, most significant financial asset is this place where you live. And it's heavily dependent on all of these factors. And so, okay, so what does Bitcoin do?

01:03:55:29 - 01:04:01:19
Right. You know, what what can Bitcoin do for this, the American dream?

01:04:01:21 - 01:04:06:05

And, you know, sort of thinking about it, thinking about looking down to the window of the plane.

01:04:06:10 - 01:04:06:15

01:04:06:15 - 01:04:10:24

Saying, well, what if.

01:04:10:26 - 01:04:35:23
I was actually like the genesis of this idea? I was driving with my son and, you know, we talk about finance, which, you know, is probably like a little self dorky, but whatever. And, you know, then we start talking about Bitcoin a few years ago. And one day we were driving along and he said to me, he said, you know, I've been thinking about it before.

01:04:35:25 - 01:04:39:27
We were starting talking about how to integrate Bitcoin into finance. I look back on it.

01:04:40:04 - 01:04:40:26

It was like we were.

01:04:40:26 - 01:04:43:14
Watching television in black and white.

01:04:43:16 - 01:04:48:03

This is now that we're talking about Bitcoin, it's like everything is in color. So we're driving.

01:04:48:03 - 01:04:55:28
One day through West Philadelphia and we're talking about, you know, these ideas mixing Bitcoin with credit and traditionally financeable assets.

01:04:55:28 - 01:05:09:04

And he says, what about a house what if we did it for a house? I said, What do you mean? He says, What if we put some Bitcoin on top of the house? I said, What do you mean, put the Bitcoin on top of the house? He says, Well, you know, like Mario eats the mushroom and he gets bigger.

01:05:09:04 - 01:05:23:06

He gets all of these powers. He says the Bitcoin can power up the house. And we just started riffing on that and we said, Well, let's, you know, let's talk about. And so we said, All right, Sam, House, $300,000. But now add.

01:05:23:08 - 01:05:28:05
Add Super Mario, $30,000 worth of Bitcoin.

01:05:28:08 - 01:05:28:26

01:05:28:28 - 01:05:34:01
Okay, 10%. You know, Bitcoin 30 $30,000, $300,000.

01:05:34:01 - 01:05:38:02

House combine them into.

01:05:38:04 - 01:05:43:05
A financing package, a collateral package, $330,000.

01:05:43:07 - 01:05:45:27

Make the same 80% loan.

01:05:45:29 - 01:05:46:13

01:05:46:13 - 01:05:47:01

Now it's a two.

01:05:47:01 - 01:05:54:12
Hundred and $64,000 loan instead of a $240,000 loan on a $300,000 house, same 80% loan to.

01:05:54:12 - 01:05:57:18

Value borrower has to put up 66.

01:05:57:18 - 01:06:01:24
Thousand dollars instead of 60. But here's where it gets interesting.

01:06:01:26 - 01:06:15:23

Because the lender can also some return from sharing in the appreciation of the Bitcoin and not just in the interest.

01:06:15:27 - 01:06:17:19
And in the amortization.

01:06:17:22 - 01:06:19:23

It provides quite a lot of flexibility for.

01:06:19:23 - 01:06:21:24
The interest and the amortization.

01:06:21:27 - 01:06:23:26

And so instead of a 30 year.

01:06:23:26 - 01:06:29:24
Mortgage with a 7% interest rate, we were just, you know, penciling.

01:06:29:24 - 01:06:31:06

Out how about a 20.

01:06:31:06 - 01:06:36:00
Five year mortgage with a 5.2, 5% interest rate.

01:06:36:02 - 01:06:40:25

And as it would turn out, the monthly payment on a 25 year.

01:06:40:25 - 01:06:46:19
Mortgage with a 5.25% interest rate and an original balance of $264,000.

01:06:46:22 - 01:06:52:29

Is a little bit less per month than the monthly payment for a 200 and.

01:06:52:29 - 01:07:01:07
$40,000 mortgage on a $300,000 house with no bitcoin 30 year amortization, 7% interest rate.

01:07:01:09 - 01:07:09:20

And so before we get onto the Bitcoin, we could say to the borrower, Hey yo, if you make the monthly payment, you will own the home.

01:07:09:20 - 01:07:28:25
Five years earlier for a lower amount per month. That's that's the value proposition. If Bitcoin goes to zero, of course I don't think bitcoin's going to zero. It's gunpowder money. In fact, it's been one of the most well, it's been the most well-performing as of last 15 years by far, especially if you look at it over a medium to long term periods of time.

01:07:28:27 - 01:07:36:21

And we can say to the borrower, okay, now enter the Bitcoin. So every year that the borrower stays in the home and continues.

01:07:36:21 - 01:07:39:29
To pay the interest and continues to amortize the debt on this 25 year.

01:07:39:29 - 01:07:44:15

Schedule, they also vest into.

01:07:44:15 - 01:07:46:16
2% of the appreciation of the.

01:07:46:16 - 01:07:51:03

Bitcoin. So if they stay in the home for ten years, they.

01:07:51:03 - 01:07:53:04
Vest into 20% of the appreciation. If they.

01:07:53:04 - 01:07:54:20

Stay in the home for 25 years.

01:07:54:20 - 01:08:01:16
They vest into 50% of the appreciation the lender gets. The other appreciation share.

01:08:01:18 - 01:08:04:01

And when you start to run the math.

01:08:04:03 - 01:08:13:23
Okay, since May 2020, right. A lot's happened since May 2020, you know, like what are some of the things that have happened in up?

01:08:13:23 - 01:08:14:14
We've been down.

01:08:14:22 - 01:08:28:23
Yeah. Uh, that's one way to put it. Another way to put it is Alameda Celsius Voyager BLOCKFI three arrows. You know, a lot of different turmoil in the digital.

01:08:28:23 - 01:08:30:13

Asset world as a whole.

01:08:30:16 - 01:08:33:08
Right? 69,000 down to 16.

01:08:33:08 - 01:08:38:18

You know, a lot of volatility. But when in doubt, zoom out the compound annual.

01:08:38:18 - 01:08:41:26
Growth rate since the May 2020 have and you know.

01:08:41:26 - 01:08:43:11

What it is as of today about 70.

01:08:43:11 - 01:08:45:24

01:08:45:27 - 01:08:46:25
That's about.

01:08:46:27 - 01:08:47:14


01:08:47:14 - 01:08:49:19
Percent per year.

01:08:49:21 - 01:08:52:22

So if you put this financing formula.

01:08:52:25 - 01:08:53:21
This financing.

01:08:53:21 - 01:08:56:00

Structure, and you just pencil it.

01:08:56:00 - 01:08:58:03
Out, okay.

01:08:58:06 - 01:09:24:17

Then in about year ten, the borrower will have enough money. They choose enough embedded appreciation in the Bitcoin if they choose to fully retire the loan and have a couple hundred thousand dollars of additional equity besides. And now I think I hope.

01:09:24:18 - 01:09:45:21
Actually, honestly, you know, you look at a neighborhood like Germantown in Philadelphia, you know, where there's a lot of older housing stock, there's a lot of needs for repair. And it's not just Germantown in many areas that, you know, fit this description, But Germantown, you know, was founded one year after the city of Philadelphia. Right. 1683. So it's an old neighborhood of the city.

01:09:45:21 - 01:09:56:20
It was incorporated into the city in the consolidation of 1854. But, you know, a lot of older housing stock needs, a lot of repair and upkeep.

01:09:56:22 - 01:09:59:17

And if you you know, if you were to put 50.

01:09:59:17 - 01:10:10:13
Of these kinds of mortgages with, you know, I mean, that would be like putting 25 Bitcoin into Germantown. And then you fast forward 30 years, you have 25 Bitcoin in Germantown in 30 years.

01:10:10:13 - 01:10:12:22

That's a major draw shift.

01:10:12:24 - 01:10:15:22
Of the capital resources of that neighborhood.

01:10:15:25 - 01:10:22:00

And if you power up the houses with this, then my hope is that people won't be like.

01:10:22:00 - 01:10:22:18
In year ten.

01:10:22:18 - 01:10:23:16

Hey yo, I.

01:10:23:16 - 01:10:24:10
Can retire my.

01:10:24:10 - 01:10:25:19


01:10:25:21 - 01:10:28:19
Take my 300,000 extra and run.

01:10:28:24 - 01:10:36:24

To somewhere else. My hope is that they're going to be like, Oh, actually, hold on. I should really stay in this house.

01:10:36:27 - 01:10:42:14
For the rest of the term of this financing facility, because every year I do, I vest into two more percent.

01:10:42:17 - 01:10:46:04

Of the most that's depreciating.

01:10:46:04 - 01:10:51:22
Asset of the last 15 years gunpowder money bitcoin with all of this incredible attributes.

01:10:51:25 - 01:11:03:25

And then of course as the equity of the Bitcoin grows that provides a really powerful and uncorrelated and not the house that you live in and one that doesn't require the roof to be.

01:11:03:25 - 01:11:04:11

01:11:04:11 - 01:11:16:24

Or have any storage costs store of financing potential around that family, that individual can invest in many other things. Right? And that could be.

01:11:17:00 - 01:11:18:28
The maintenance and repair of the house.

01:11:19:00 - 01:11:20:04

Or it could be the.

01:11:20:04 - 01:11:26:04
Initial capital to start a business, or it could be to pay for, um, uh, an important.

01:11:26:04 - 01:11:28:25

Operation or for tuition or to.

01:11:28:25 - 01:11:30:18
Better facilitate a retirement.

01:11:30:18 - 01:11:44:18

Savings. And you think about the wealth creation that is possible, and it's a much better program for the borrower and for the lender. You look at the lender's return, it's much higher. It is protected.

01:11:44:18 - 01:11:49:25
Against inflation, it is non correlated asset. It doesn't have just this idiosyncratic risk on this.

01:11:49:25 - 01:11:50:25


01:11:50:28 - 01:11:54:03
Building in a specific neighborhood, in a specific region with.

01:11:54:03 - 01:11:57:15

All the issues that we discussed, it has that which is good.

01:11:57:15 - 01:12:01:01
Because that provide shelter and it has traditionally been a good store of.

01:12:01:01 - 01:12:01:23


01:12:01:25 - 01:12:03:13
It has a real utility.

01:12:03:15 - 01:12:04:12

But it also.

01:12:04:12 - 01:12:08:21
Has exposure to the best collateral, the most pristine.

01:12:08:21 - 01:12:15:10

Collateral. And by unifying them, you're transforming time preferences in a way that is allowing.

01:12:15:10 - 01:12:19:15
The accomplishment of real world goals. And yeah.

01:12:19:17 - 01:12:49:01
It's every time we talk about I get even more excited because you think about what operate like you mentioned FDX and BLOCK fight all that too. And when you compare what you just described to what they were doing, they were taking Bitcoin and lending it out to to generate traders that were betting on shit coins and losing their money on unleveraged bets.

01:12:49:03 - 01:13:17:02
Look to this. It's like as a bitcoin owner, it's like this actually, if we're looking to build a liquidity base and get to a phase of monetization of stability where Bitcoin is more pervasive, something like this makes a ton of sense where you put it in these structured products and lock it up potentially 25 years. People want to tap out early because the appreciation of Bitcoin is such where they can they can do that.

01:13:17:02 - 01:13:19:00

But our mission is to.

01:13:19:00 - 01:13:25:04
Deliver superior financing alternatives for people who choose to invest and save in Bitcoin.

01:13:25:07 - 01:13:30:23

For people, companies, institutions that choose.

01:13:30:23 - 01:13:33:28
To have as their treasury asset gunpowder.

01:13:33:28 - 01:13:36:02

Money. We want to.

01:13:36:02 - 01:13:47:16
Provide them with a, you know, the best financing tools, the best long term financing tools without mark to market risk that enable them to express.

01:13:47:19 - 01:13:49:14

In the physical world.

01:13:49:16 - 01:14:10:27
The physical manifestation of the dreams and objectives that they have in their mind. Because if you just keep it in Bitcoin and you keep it all in the digital world forever, they're going to be a lot of dreams that and ambitions that are ultimately not realized because of the the, the time preference reshaping and what, you know, the financing.

01:14:10:27 - 01:14:14:00

Products that exist today are very.

01:14:14:00 - 01:14:17:04
High time preference financing products. You can borrow.

01:14:17:06 - 01:14:18:24

On a continuous liquidation.

01:14:18:24 - 01:14:27:13
Basis, full mark to market risk or continuous mark to market risk anytime liquidation for high current fiat interest rates.

01:14:27:16 - 01:14:31:20

And, you know, so if you even if you have you know, if you have a little bit I.

01:14:31:20 - 01:14:34:19
Mean you borrow in a ratio, right? So you know, it scales.

01:14:34:19 - 01:14:49:24

Up and down. But I mean, you know, let's you know, somebody has ten bitcoins, a lot of bitcoin, somebody has ten Bitcoin and $700,000. You know, how much financing can you draw against that, you know, safely? You know, 70,000.

01:14:49:26 - 01:14:51:00
Right? 100,000.

01:14:51:00 - 01:14:55:04

Dollars. 150,000. How about how about 300?

01:14:55:04 - 01:15:09:06
Well, you can't get 300. You're talking about like 50% LTV max. 40% LTV max. But probably anyway, that's like depending on where you are in the cycle. And then you have all this cycle awareness and you're like, well, what if a flash crash and all this other stuff? And anyway, it's 16% per.

01:15:09:06 - 01:15:18:11

Year and how are you going to, you know, you know, if, you know, if you've built up a stack and you're like, you know, I have a dream.

01:15:18:11 - 01:15:19:25
For my hometown and I want.

01:15:19:25 - 01:15:22:11

To I want to buy the movie theater.

01:15:22:14 - 01:15:27:28
And I want to reposition it in this way as a makerspace. And we're in show.

01:15:27:28 - 01:15:28:03


01:15:28:03 - 01:15:29:19
Films and we're going to have an.

01:15:29:19 - 01:15:41:04

Incubation facility and whatever, whatever it is you're going to do, you know, And you're like, Look, that's a $10 million project. I'd like to do this. It's going to take me 8 to 10 years.

01:15:41:04 - 01:15:42:28
To realize that vision.

01:15:43:00 - 01:15:44:05

You can't finance.

01:15:44:05 - 01:15:45:11

01:15:45:13 - 01:15:48:29

On a continuous.

01:15:49:01 - 01:15:53:07
Mark to market, instantaneous liquidation basis.

01:15:53:09 - 01:15:56:05

That's not you know, it's a mismatch it's a basic.

01:15:56:05 - 01:16:03:27
Mismatch of the terms of the financing and the term of the purpose of the financing.

01:16:03:29 - 01:16:11:17

And so what we're seeking to do is to match.

01:16:11:20 - 01:16:16:12
You know, create much more of a match by aligning interests.

01:16:16:15 - 01:16:18:03

With a constructive long term view on the.

01:16:18:03 - 01:16:22:21
Value of Bitcoin for all of the reasons that I think are right splendidly.

01:16:22:22 - 01:16:31:21

You know, clear, right, Usually clear and and I think it's I think it's good for that. I think it's very.

01:16:31:21 - 01:16:34:26
Good for for credit investors also.

01:16:34:28 - 01:16:36:22

Because it provides a very.

01:16:36:22 - 01:16:37:21

01:16:37:24 - 01:16:38:26


01:16:38:29 - 01:16:51:19
In terms of how to address the the biggest risk which is hiding in plain sight, which is also the most difficult risk to deal with in the modern world. It's a slow moving, urgent crisis. Right.

01:16:51:20 - 01:16:53:12

That's like impossible to deal with.

01:16:53:13 - 01:16:54:27
It's like it's getting a little faster.

01:16:55:03 - 01:17:09:25

Maybe so. But like, you know, you know, the two cappuccinos and the question was $23 today, it's not going to be $26 tomorrow, although in Germany, interestingly, at the end.

01:17:09:25 - 01:17:18:11
Of not in Germany, but in Hungary, Hungary had by far in 19 5 to 1946, the worst inflation right after the Second.

01:17:18:11 - 01:17:19:09

World War.

01:17:19:11 - 01:17:40:22
And two stats that are pretty fascinating. I learned them from the Wizard of Wall Street, the great Jeremy SIEGEL, the Wizard of Wharton, you know, one and only Jeremy SIEGEL, who is just a genius in stocks for the long run, is a book that everyone should read. But.

01:17:40:25 - 01:17:44:02

You know, he said he was.

01:17:44:04 - 01:18:02:03
Lecturing one day and he said, hey, um, two facts. I'm going to give you two facts and I'm going to ask you to guess the total value of one unit in number terms at the end of the 18 month grade inflation in Hungary. Two facts are.

01:18:02:05 - 01:18:06:00

At the in the final month of the.

01:18:06:06 - 01:18:14:16
Grade inflation, 1945 to 1946, prices doubled approximately four times daily.

01:18:14:19 - 01:18:18:21

And the second fact is that, um.

01:18:18:23 - 01:18:41:00
You can read newspaper articles about how factory workers ask their their spouse to go to the factory at midday in order to get the wages for the first half of the day so that they could run to the market to liquidate the the the paper money into food and other things that they needed because if they held on to it, it would be double in four times a day and immediately worthless.

01:18:41:03 - 01:18:47:16

So if you started with one okay, and you ended with what.

01:18:47:18 - 01:18:51:03
In terms of what equaled one at the end of 18 months, what do you think.

01:18:51:05 - 01:19:00:19
18 months or one day would be 1 to 4 trillions?

01:19:00:24 - 01:19:01:10

01:19:01:10 - 01:19:08:02

Well, so, um. So you have thousands, right? Trillions. Thousands.

01:19:08:02 - 01:19:10:27
Millions or billions? Trillions.

01:19:10:27 - 01:19:13:05

Quadrillions quintillion is.

01:19:13:07 - 01:19:14:21
Um, what's next?

01:19:14:21 - 01:19:17:03

I'm not sure, but it's three.

01:19:17:05 - 01:19:19:25
If my memory serves something around the vicinity.

01:19:19:25 - 01:19:46:13

Of 3.8, three times ten to the 26th power was worst. I mean, we laugh, but it's actually really profoundly sad. Yeah, right. It's a profound issue and all this happened before digital, right? And so, you know, you think about you think about I mean, if you look at the inflations, when when money was governed by physical.

01:19:46:13 - 01:19:51:05
Constraints of some kind, natural constraints.

01:19:51:08 - 01:19:57:11

You know, the Romans were only able to adjust the silver.

01:19:57:11 - 01:19:59:19
Content of the, say, adjust.

01:19:59:25 - 01:20:02:24

To lower to debase the silver.

01:20:02:24 - 01:20:04:26
Content of the coins.

01:20:04:28 - 01:20:08:24

By the industrial capacity.

01:20:08:24 - 01:20:12:26
Limitation of mining additional base metals to mix.

01:20:12:26 - 01:20:14:22

Them with there was a physical.

01:20:14:22 - 01:20:18:23
Limitation and it took 150 years to manifest.

01:20:18:26 - 01:20:26:00

When you have some physical limitation, you know, and then have a technology step forward and then.

01:20:26:00 - 01:20:45:04
Rates then all didn't rates about as brilliantly and broken money. I mean, everyone should read it. It's an amazing book. You know, The Wampum was easily able to be replicated by industrial tools from from Europeans. So that dramatically undermined the scarcity value of the wampum through the technology.

01:20:45:06 - 01:20:46:05

Then you come in to.

01:20:46:05 - 01:20:49:05
Eventually paper money. To make a long story short.

01:20:49:07 - 01:20:56:28

In printing, that is, you know, it's much easier, isn't it, than mining.

01:20:57:04 - 01:21:04:25
Base metal and melting and restraining coinage and getting that coinage out there because it's heavy and have to get it into people's hands and takes a while to get out there.

01:21:04:25 - 01:21:16:22

But even still, the paper money is physical and it there are some real world constraints to getting out there.

01:21:16:22 - 01:21:19:04
You have to put it on vehicles and take it out to.

01:21:19:04 - 01:21:19:26

The places.

01:21:19:26 - 01:21:23:28
And get it into peoples. And then it starts to circulate. There's a storage in. It's like.

01:21:23:28 - 01:21:30:05

Actually there are real world constraints and but if you if you look at Don Carl Berg's book and.

01:21:30:05 - 01:21:30:21
He has a great.

01:21:30:21 - 01:21:32:03

Table of the 15 great.

01:21:32:03 - 01:21:32:20

01:21:32:20 - 01:21:39:21

That he profiles and by the way, he says he profiles 50, but he could have just as easily profiles 15, but he could have just as easily.

01:21:39:21 - 01:21:42:15
Profiled 50 or for that matter of 500.

01:21:42:18 - 01:21:43:27

The story is the same.

01:21:43:27 - 01:21:44:08
He just.

01:21:44:08 - 01:21:45:06

Chose 15 that.

01:21:45:06 - 01:21:57:05
He thought were representative. These 15 grade inflation, starting with ancient Rome and continuing through at that point. The book was written, I think it was in the early 1990s that he published this book.

01:21:57:08 - 01:22:04:21

But if you look at the rate of inflation, it's actually the it doesn't become exponential until the 20th.

01:22:04:21 - 01:22:06:11
Century inflations.

01:22:06:13 - 01:22:08:01

Until you start prior to.

01:22:08:01 - 01:22:09:17
That. It's not exponential.

01:22:09:19 - 01:22:14:16

Because there are these physical limitations and then in the 20th century it's exponential because now you're.

01:22:14:16 - 01:22:16:03
Talking about money printing, which.

01:22:16:03 - 01:22:26:07

Is, which is still physically constrained but substantially easier. And then you fast forward and you're like, okay, now we have digital money.

01:22:26:10 - 01:22:26:27

01:22:26:28 - 01:22:34:11

Cbdcs and so on and so forth, and the constraints are lowered considerably. And you say, well, what could be.

01:22:34:11 - 01:22:40:10
The outcome of that? Not that it's going to be necessarily, you know, we don't have to like wear our doom cap.

01:22:40:12 - 01:22:57:27

But what could be it could be very, very significant. And if you take that at all seriously, if you take this risk at all seriously, this is a in my opinion, this is the most significant objective.

01:22:57:29 - 01:23:05:12
That investors should be focused on right now, because I think it's a risk that's hiding in plain sight.

01:23:05:12 - 01:23:07:26

Or the question is not like, you know.

01:23:07:26 - 01:23:19:06
Is the 1% allocation to Bitcoin going to have, you know, volatility and maybe be worth 25 basis points if it has a 75%.

01:23:19:06 - 01:23:22:25

Loss? The question is is my 35.

01:23:22:25 - 01:23:40:12
Or 40% allocation to credit baked in the cake of 50% loss in real value, and that's just that a 7% depreciation over ten years. What if it's higher? I just mentioned that all of these are are exponential in the 20th century. We haven't gotten to that phase.

01:23:40:12 - 01:23:44:11

I hope we don't. But what if we do? What if we do? What's the plan.

01:23:44:13 - 01:23:49:11
Like? Actually, what's the plan? And, um.

01:23:49:14 - 01:23:51:18

You know, I think it's really.

01:23:51:20 - 01:24:00:12
Uh, I mean, I've been fanboy in a lot online all. Dan But it's easy to do that.

01:24:00:14 - 01:24:00:28

But she.

01:24:00:28 - 01:24:09:22
Writes, you know, very compellingly. Why pivot later from a position of weakness when you can pivot early from a position of strength.

01:24:09:25 - 01:24:22:27

And here in, you know, the United States where we have so much capital, so much innovation, so many capabilities, so many natural resources, we have every.

01:24:22:27 - 01:24:26:10
Reason to embrace the Bitcoin renaissance.

01:24:26:10 - 01:24:39:21

And every ability to everyone around the world. Bitcoin is for everybody, right? Saylor helpfully created that in Atlantis. This idea, it's a great idea. It's true. But in the United States.

01:24:39:21 - 01:24:41:02
You know, Bitcoin is for everybody.

01:24:41:02 - 01:24:44:04

It is around the world too. And also we have the ability to really.

01:24:44:04 - 01:24:45:12
Take advantage of that.

01:24:45:14 - 01:24:46:25

You know, the fact that MicroStrategy.

01:24:46:25 - 01:24:48:27
Owns 1% of the Bitcoin and is an.

01:24:48:27 - 01:25:20:00

American company that's very powerful right. That's like, you know, the new Carnegie. Right. That's a very incredible, you know, a very incredible position. And if other companies start to embrace this and begin to think about how can they improve their value chain, how can they integrate this incredible technology, you know, I mean, if you're I mean, if you're Proctor and Gamble, you know, how do you integrate Bitcoin, right?

01:25:20:00 - 01:25:25:02

If you're Pepsi, how do you integrate Bitcoin? You know, I mean.

01:25:25:05 - 01:25:29:24
Certainly, obviously, you know, Treasury, right? Corporate Treasury, that makes a lot of sense.

01:25:29:26 - 01:25:38:13

But into pension, but not only into that. Also you think about, you know, these industrial applications, if you have wasted energy.

01:25:38:13 - 01:25:41:27
If you're Chevron and you have flair gas, why not monetize it why like.

01:25:41:29 - 01:25:42:12

Why not.

01:25:42:12 - 01:25:43:19
Monetize it?

01:25:43:22 - 01:25:52:28

Or if you have the need for heat in some component of your industrial processes.

01:25:53:01 - 01:25:54:10
You know, should you just.

01:25:54:10 - 01:25:56:12

Burn fuel to make heat? Well, I mean, I.

01:25:56:12 - 01:26:11:05
Guess that's one alternative, but another clearly better alternative would be to burn fuel, to make electricity, to make Bitcoin, to produce heat as a byproduct, to create the heat that you need. And now you're talking about these circular approach.

01:26:11:06 - 01:26:43:00

And then, you know, you have a really a dynamism and Bitcoin delights people, right? When you adopt Bitcoin, it is delightful, right? You start to hang out with people that have creative solutions, that are driven, that are constructive, that are cheerful, that are working to upgrade the world. And it is delightful. And imagine if we take the companies, the institutions, families, small businesses, not just publicly companies, but also divisions of government.

01:26:43:00 - 01:27:01:04

And we think about how can we integrate Bitcoin in a constructive way into these. And we think about it over night like, you know, 5 minutes or five days, which is hard because it's a very volatile asset. And so it's hard to get.

01:27:01:04 - 01:27:04:06
Away from the short term.

01:27:04:08 - 01:27:05:27
But actually in today's society.

01:27:05:27 - 01:27:11:01

Yeah, I mean, you know, I was thinking about.

01:27:11:04 - 01:27:14:19
This this morning because I was watching CNBC right before I came over.

01:27:14:19 - 01:27:18:03

Here and they had this panel.

01:27:18:05 - 01:27:21:04
Of, you know, very intelligent people.

01:27:21:06 - 01:27:38:20

And they were all talking about, look, the jobs number came in. It was 332,000. You know, what does that mean for interest rates for right now, for this, for that, for so on and so forth. And there you know, this person says this for durable goods and this person says that for this it's like and they're all talking.

01:27:38:20 - 01:28:05:10

And it's like I'm thinking it's like you're standing on the beach, okay, and you're watching the water wash over your feet and you're saying, what are the you know, what are the things that I can see in this little water, in this little frame right in front of me right now? And you just looking down. And yet if you avert your gaze to the horizon and you look out and you're like, Oh, hold on.

01:28:05:16 - 01:28:11:11

When in doubt zoom out, you know, and it doesn't make for good TV to talk.

01:28:11:11 - 01:28:16:25
About long term trends on Squawk Box. That's the issue, right?

01:28:16:27 - 01:28:20:03
They're long term. We're going to squawk about what's going right.

01:28:20:03 - 01:28:22:29
Right. It's not changing that often.

01:28:23:02 - 01:28:24:23

Like people don't read the financial.

01:28:24:23 - 01:28:29:06
History section right. They're reading. You know, if you know, if they're reading, they're.

01:28:29:06 - 01:28:30:08

Reading the newspaper.

01:28:30:09 - 01:28:31:03
You know, or they're reading.

01:28:31:03 - 01:28:56:24

Headlines or they're watching the ticker. Right. It's like all very you know, what is happening now? What is the rate of change? But if you zoom out, if you think about it in, if you allow yourself to imagine, what could I accomplish if I took careful steps over three years, five years, seven years, ten years, let alone.

01:28:56:25 - 01:28:59:13
30 years, or the creature with the 10,000.

01:28:59:13 - 01:29:16:01

Year lifespan, and you integrate Bitcoin into that which is a non debatable digital granite. What you can build on that foundation is absolutely remarkable.

01:29:16:04 - 01:29:56:29
But you can not only build, but really let's go to like your Germantown example, rebuild, right? Revitalize right, reestablish, which is very much needed right now in terms of thinking long term about these problems, too. Like you mentioned, Saylor, MicroStrategy is 1%, most like in terms of population that own Bitcoin. Americans are leading the way from an individual perspective, like individuals in America own the most Bitcoin on a per capita basis of everybody in the world, I believe.

01:29:56:29 - 01:29:59:10
I think that's still true.

01:29:59:13 - 01:30:00:02

That's wonderful.

01:30:00:02 - 01:30:38:01
And when it comes exactly when it comes to the government's perspective and their posturing towards Bitcoin, you're taking the debt situation, the the unfunded liabilities situation considerations. Like I said this on another show a couple of weeks ago, but it's like if you want the path of least resistance, solve these problems, you have to embrace bitcoin. Yeah, and you have to let people like yourself and others begin to incorporate it into these things that need to be revitalized, rebuilt because they've got a poison in them, which is the toxicity.

01:30:38:05 - 01:30:38:20

01:30:38:25 - 01:30:42:03
Yeah. And bitcoin produces an asymmetric advantage.

01:30:42:03 - 01:30:42:24
An antidote.

01:30:43:00 - 01:30:44:27
An antidote. That's exactly.

01:30:44:27 - 01:30:46:12
Right. Yeah.

01:30:46:15 - 01:30:51:20
So it's really exciting. You know, it's.

01:30:51:22 - 01:30:53:28

It's great to be able to wake up every day.

01:30:53:28 - 01:30:59:29
And be able to build on Bitcoin. I mean, that is just great, right? And it's like.

01:31:00:01 - 01:31:05:10

The tools make sense. They are fit for purpose, you know, It just.

01:31:05:10 - 01:31:06:26

01:31:06:28 - 01:31:22:05

Being open minded, right? A little bit, you know, because when I mean, it's like that with everything, though. I mean, you know what you know, the you know, the Teamsters logo is right. Teamsters logo. It's there's two horse heads.

01:31:22:07 - 01:31:22:26
And the.

01:31:23:02 - 01:31:26:24

Spoked wheel. But you know why?

01:31:26:26 - 01:31:27:13

01:31:27:16 - 01:31:39:08

Because they're team drivers of horse carriage, as you know. And that's how you get the items to the place where they're going. And when Jimmy Hoffa was coming up.

01:31:39:10 - 01:31:42:24
And the strawberry boys rebellion, the Kroger.

01:31:42:27 - 01:31:51:25

Foods, you know, the big thing that was under debate, right, was should we you know, Jimmy Hoffa really wanted to.

01:31:51:25 - 01:31:52:23
Embrace the mechanical.

01:31:52:23 - 01:31:54:00

01:31:54:02 - 01:31:54:12

01:31:54:12 - 01:31:55:14
The car? Yeah.

01:31:55:16 - 01:31:56:20

The truck.

01:31:56:22 - 01:31:58:12
Right. That's the mechanical horse.

01:31:58:14 - 01:32:18:10

And there was a group of people that said, well, hold on. Right. We are interested in horses. We have horses on our logo. We've been with horses forever. You Know. And I'm sure that somebody probably said, hey, hold on. One of the, you know, muckety mucks, one of the bigwigs on the board of directors, do you know they have a stable?

01:32:18:12 - 01:32:38:23

And do you know that daughter combs, the man of the horse every night? Like, what is she going to do, Like pet the leather on the mechanical horse? This is not going to work. You know, you can't do this you can't do this. This is not traditional. This is unproven, you know, untested. But the thing is, is that all new ideas.

01:32:38:23 - 01:32:41:01
Are unproven and untested and.

01:32:41:04 - 01:32:57:12

Old ideas that aren't working are proven to not work right. Like it has been proven that it isn't working. And so you have to try something that is unproven, but around which we now have 15 years of data and which we're not interested.

01:32:57:12 - 01:33:10:24
In because we have some like, you know, faith in, you know, in, in, in, you know, Dogecoin or ah, pirate coin or.

01:33:10:26 - 01:33:16:08

You know, whatever. Like it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do.

01:33:16:08 - 01:33:39:28
With finite supply, scarce new issuance, invisible, weightless, transportable, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, anywhere around the world. Extraordinary innovation is on layer two that make it instantly transportable at virtually no cost. Protected by the largest computer network on Earth. Eight and 37,000.

01:33:39:28 - 01:33:43:02

Whatever blocks 568 quintillion.

01:33:43:02 - 01:33:45:10
Calculations per second.

01:33:45:12 - 01:34:09:03

Right. All of these factors fully auditable. That and not only that, but can serve conservative in the sense of conservancy and therefore tied directly to the electrical infrastructure of the earth, creating all of these industrial applications that are doing things like methane emission.

01:34:09:03 - 01:34:10:19
Reduction and.

01:34:10:22 - 01:34:26:13

Orphan oil and natural gas well, you know, pollution abatement and monetization into, Bitcoin and electrifying villages, remote villages. You listen to Fred Teel talking about mining as a service. I mean, he hasn't used.

01:34:26:13 - 01:34:27:00
That expression.

01:34:27:00 - 01:34:30:27

But the way that I interpret what Marathon is talking about is like.

01:34:30:27 - 01:34:33:00
Software as a service, it's mining as a service.

01:34:33:00 - 01:34:36:19

And when he's saying, look, we're saying, can we do some.

01:34:36:19 - 01:34:38:10
Test projects with.

01:34:38:13 - 01:34:51:16

You know, Scandinavian cities who heat their cities with, with, with, with, with, with, with steam, you know, under the cities and hot And what if we heat that hot water with Bitcoin and.

01:34:51:16 - 01:34:54:16
Marathon enters into some kind of co-venture.

01:34:54:19 - 01:34:58:21

To distribute the heat over there or the same thing with an agricultural.

01:34:58:24 - 01:34:59:20
Plant that.

01:34:59:25 - 01:35:02:19

Instead of combusting the plant.

01:35:02:19 - 01:35:23:05
Material after processing and just polluting the environment. Also, by the way, just wasting the fuel to combusted, that doesn't make any sense. Why not bio You know, why not anaerobic digest it, create a bio gas, turn the bio gas into electricity, turn the electricity into bitcoin, use the heat byproduct to facilitate the decomposition in the anaerobic digester.

01:35:23:05 - 01:35:27:19

And if you need heat or cooling in the power plant or in the industrial plant that.

01:35:27:19 - 01:35:28:21
You have for some.

01:35:28:21 - 01:35:43:04

Other reason, you can do that too through heat exchange. And you know, you have that spa in New York City that is heating the largest Jacuzzi in New York City through Bitcoin. Like these are just sensible conservative.

01:35:43:04 - 01:35:45:27
In the sense that they are conserving energy.

01:35:45:29 - 01:35:47:13

In a much more rational.

01:35:47:13 - 01:35:48:15
Way than capital.

01:35:48:19 - 01:36:11:19

And capital. And and it just creates these amazing possibilities. And, you know, you got like, you know, the boxes right upstream, you know, like, let's put that box right there. Right. You have wasted energy. You have some extra electricity, boom. And you know, then you have a heat that comes out. I mean, it's a much better idea in the future, isn't it.

01:36:11:22 - 01:36:13:03
For everyone's hot water.

01:36:13:03 - 01:36:15:08

Heater to also.

01:36:15:08 - 01:36:17:00
Be a bitcoin miner.

01:36:17:03 - 01:36:26:03

Right. We need some technological too. But wouldn't it be great if you could go to Sears? Does that even exist anymore? But wouldn't it be great if you could go to, you know, the five and dime?

01:36:26:03 - 01:36:30:28
It's not the five and dime anymore. You know, the 50 and 100 set.

01:36:31:00 - 01:36:33:12

Wouldn't it be great if.

01:36:33:14 - 01:36:37:20
If if, if you could go and.

01:36:37:23 - 01:36:38:04

The hot.

01:36:38:04 - 01:36:40:13
Water heater for your house.

01:36:40:16 - 01:36:43:14

You know, maybe you still have to pay for some electricity.

01:36:43:14 - 01:36:53:17
Because maybe it's not super, but maybe there's a way to make it efficient where you're also, you know, and then you're distributing hash, Right. Which is good for different reasons.

01:36:53:20 - 01:37:00:12

And the last 5 minutes have been all about, you know, mining and all about that.

01:37:00:14 - 01:37:03:26
You know, sort of.

01:37:03:28 - 01:37:05:26

Area value.

01:37:05:26 - 01:37:07:07

01:37:07:09 - 01:37:09:16

But we haven't even we've hardly even scratched.

01:37:09:16 - 01:37:16:01
The surface in this conversation on remittances and payments and set streaming and cyber walls.

01:37:16:04 - 01:37:18:03
And interesting escrow.

01:37:18:04 - 01:37:42:19

Yeah. Insurance applications like, you know, digital gates, physical gates scared the value of scarcity and, you know, and of course Bitcoin is infinitely divisible. That's useful. But people that have a lot of Bitcoin are also going to be able to lease it for these use you know make MicroStrategy Bitcoin development company. I've been thinking a lot about what they mean when they say that.

01:37:42:21 - 01:37:50:25
And I think that there is a lot to do with that idea. A lot a lot to do. So it's great, man.

01:37:50:25 - 01:37:57:11

I'm just Yeah I love it. It's it's wonderful when you know.

01:37:57:13 - 01:38:18:04
It's wonderful when you can work in in a space that is making sense that, you know, inspires creativity, that you can develop novel solutions that are fit for purpose. I mean, every day you work.

01:38:18:04 - 01:38:20:20

And you feel like and not only that, but everybody.

01:38:20:20 - 01:38:21:24
Is working toward the same.

01:38:21:24 - 01:38:25:15

Object and each in their own way, right? You know, I'm not out.

01:38:25:15 - 01:38:37:21
There trying to figure out, you know, immersion or different kind of, you know under clocking, you know, or whatever the case may be. But you know what?

01:38:37:24 - 01:38:41:25

What AJ and Drew are doing is helpful to what.

01:38:41:28 - 01:38:45:00
You know, to what I'm doing indirectly. Right. And it's like.

01:38:45:00 - 01:39:03:20

Everybody is building on this common foundation in building, building, building. And then if you integrate that into, you say, look, if you're a pizzeria owner and you want to expand your pizzeria and you have a little bit of Bitcoin, you know, should you put your pizza oven on the credit card, should you borrow at a low.

01:39:03:20 - 01:39:06:09
Teens interest rate from Stripe?

01:39:06:11 - 01:39:07:29

Should you sell your Bitcoin?

01:39:08:02 - 01:39:09:10
That's obviously not.

01:39:09:10 - 01:39:25:29

Ideal. Oh, well, what if we could offer a low interest rate loan supported in part by the Bitcoin that enabled the capital expenditure to buy the new pizza oven or the new equipment? And instead of a high interest rate that puts a strong burden.

01:39:25:29 - 01:39:26:16
On the business.

01:39:26:16 - 01:39:30:02

Right now it's a low or a very low interest rate, but we also.

01:39:30:02 - 01:39:32:11
Share in the appreciation of the Bitcoin.

01:39:32:13 - 01:39:39:12

And that enables that pizza owner because that's the life dream of that person. Let's say, you know, whatever the life dream is.

01:39:39:19 - 01:39:45:02
You know, I worked at a pizzeria when I was a teenager. I, I love that idea. But.

01:39:45:04 - 01:39:49:16

You know, whatever that life dream is like, that's probably that.

01:39:49:16 - 01:40:03:18
Person's best path to acquire as much Bitcoin as they can is to pursue their their passion and their life dream. And if they can build that up by obtaining stable, long term financing structures without mark to market.

01:40:03:18 - 01:40:06:11

Risk transforming time preference.

01:40:06:13 - 01:40:09:29
By combining Bitcoin with traditionally financeable.

01:40:10:01 - 01:40:10:16

Then that.

01:40:10:16 - 01:40:23:15
Becomes a very robust financing paradigm. And that's really what we're looking at here is, you know, a new a new financing paradigm.

01:40:23:17 - 01:40:36:06
Yeah, it's really exciting. And as you freeze may be able to tell and was very eloquent in describing all this, and every time I talk to you, I feel like I get more energized and thank you.

01:40:36:07 - 01:40:38:01

I get energized when I'm talking to you, too.

01:40:38:03 - 01:40:40:23
It's a great way to, uh, to begin the Friday.

01:40:40:25 - 01:40:43:13
Yeah, man. We got a great weekend in store.

01:40:43:16 - 01:41:03:07
Yeah, it's, uh, it's exciting, and I hope that's. That's one thing, because I think, uh, you know, this is. Well, I know you're going to jump here soon, but I put on the black pill hat every once in a while. Duma is. And that's why I love talking to you is because you put such an optimistic view and perspective on what this can be.

01:41:03:10 - 01:41:40:18
I think particularly when we're trying to pitch this either to to people who are thinking about allocating to Bitcoin or to governments or trying to decide what do we do from a regulatory perspective with this thing? Is it a competitor that's going to take us down or is it something that we should embrace? I think the way in which you pitch the optimistic vision of the future, um, that is riding on Bitcoin, particularly in America, is extremely effective and persuasive and something that more people in government particularly need to hear we can win.

01:41:40:20 - 01:41:51:26
Yeah, Bitcoin is a big innovation. Embrace it and just let the American citizens do their thing and get to work to to integrate it to what we're doing. Yeah.

01:41:52:01 - 01:41:56:13
As 100% on a percent, I'm going to wrap with a shameless plug.

01:41:56:15 - 01:41:57:13
Plug it.

01:41:57:15 - 01:42:00:17

So we got the bitcoin. John in Philadelphia.

01:42:00:17 - 01:42:01:08
What is a John?

01:42:01:14 - 01:42:04:22

A John what is a John? Isn't that the question? Yeah. I mean, what do you think.

01:42:04:22 - 01:42:06:04
A John is.

01:42:06:07 - 01:42:09:01
John is whatever you need it to be. The point in time.

01:42:09:03 - 01:42:10:09
It's a very useful word.

01:42:10:09 - 01:42:10:25

01:42:10:25 - 01:42:27:08
Right. So we got the Bitcoin John, which is our Philly Bitcoin meet up and it's a great group, really terrific. Matt does a great job. We meet on the first Monday of the month. Lately we've been meeting at the Grand Palace restaurant.

01:42:27:10 - 01:42:28:10
Six in Washington.

01:42:28:10 - 01:42:38:06
Six in Washington. So, you know, count on Twitter, Bitcoin. John You know, there's definitely, you know, take a look. We've had some wonderful guests.

01:42:38:06 - 01:42:40:26

You were very helpful in.

01:42:40:26 - 01:43:03:22
Launching it as the first speaker at the Bitcoin, John. And we had some freaks that form that core group who came out of some of the you know, some of the awareness that you raised around that. But we've had just incredible people. I mean, I'm, you know, going to not remember all of them. But, you know, Dennis Porter came and he's doing amazing work at the state level.

01:43:03:22 - 01:43:04:29

And he came, by the.

01:43:04:29 - 01:43:11:29
Way, like a year and a half ago. We started the John in November of 2020 to basically the bottom of the bear market.

01:43:12:01 - 01:43:16:05
And the first question I got was like, what do you think's going to happen to FDX? Right?

01:43:16:05 - 01:43:16:18
And then on there.

01:43:16:19 - 01:43:17:16
And then before it blew.

01:43:17:16 - 01:43:28:19

Up. That's right. And then like the following day was when the shoe dropped actually for the first several jaunts, it was like the day after each. John, some crazy thing happened.

01:43:28:22 - 01:43:33:00
So we started talking about the John effect. But I mean, obviously it's a little silly, but.

01:43:33:02 - 01:43:34:16

You know, Dennis Porter, he came.

01:43:34:16 - 01:43:42:20
Really early on and since then he's done incredible work with Satoshi Action Fund. And you see all the success that's happening in Oklahoma.

01:43:42:22 - 01:43:43:20

You know, we haven't again.

01:43:43:20 - 01:43:46:18
Another topic we haven't even discussed is how exciting.

01:43:46:20 - 01:43:52:08

The interest is building at the states. And states is a laboratory.

01:43:52:08 - 01:43:54:22
For innovation within our federal system. Isn't that.

01:43:54:22 - 01:43:55:11


01:43:55:18 - 01:43:58:08
Tennessee, Texas, Wyoming, Oklahoma.

01:43:58:16 - 01:44:00:07
Hopefully Pennsyl, hopefully Pennsylvania.

01:44:00:07 - 01:44:00:24
Let's go.

01:44:00:24 - 01:44:14:10

Right like and you know and in Pennsylvania make sense because it's an energy state, too, you know, And it makes sense because it has a lot of landfills, too. And it makes sense because there are a lot of communities that would benefit from this kind of reinvestment, too.

01:44:14:10 - 01:44:17:08
And it makes sense because it is the birthplace of this country. Right.

01:44:17:09 - 01:44:22:28

The Keystone State. You know, so Philadelphia, you know, there's a lot there's a lot to be said.

01:44:22:28 - 01:44:29:24
For that and a lot that can be done. And what Dennis is doing with his advocacy and his model legislation is is is terrific.

01:44:29:26 - 01:44:32:16

He was a speaker at the John we had Jason Mayor come.

01:44:32:16 - 01:44:37:01
With his Progressive's case for bitcoin. We had.

01:44:37:04 - 01:44:40:01

A regulatory Jason uh you know.

01:44:40:01 - 01:44:42:01
Come and talk about his.

01:44:42:01 - 01:44:46:29

Perspective. Grant McCarty From the Bitcoin Policy Institute, we've had so many.

01:44:47:02 - 01:44:52:24
Terrific, terrific speakers that have come and also we review the news. You know, just this month we had Lynn.

01:44:52:25 - 01:44:54:01


01:44:54:03 - 01:45:01:22
Came and gave just a tremendous presentation, broken money. We had maybe 100 people who came out and a fireside chat.

01:45:01:25 - 01:45:02:01


01:45:02:01 - 01:45:16:00
We got a chance to really hear from Lynn about, you know, how she views the future of, you know, Bitcoin looking 20, 40, 60 years in the future. And of course, she had fascinating perspective and.

01:45:16:02 - 01:45:22:25

Yeah, it's open to all comers. So if you're in Philly on the first Friday of a month, come on down, check it out on Twitter. You know if.

01:45:22:25 - 01:45:25:14
You if you want to come present, you know, let us know we're.

01:45:25:14 - 01:45:31:07

Open right It's open community and we love to, you know, and I mean, just more generally, I mean, I've been to meet.

01:45:31:07 - 01:45:40:27
Ups probably, I'm sure, obviously nowhere near as many as you've been to. But I've had the chance over the last few years to go to meet ups in Austin and New York and.

01:45:40:27 - 01:45:43:13

Chicago at Strikes Office.

01:45:43:14 - 01:45:57:04
Going back to years, How I met Dennis Porter actually was at we both happened to be at a meet up in Chicago for Chicago beat Debs that was happening at the strike office more than two years ago, three years ago, whatever it was.

01:45:57:06 - 01:46:03:24

You know, and other places as well. And it's like you have these.

01:46:03:27 - 01:46:18:01
These communities and everyone, again, is working together and all supporting, you know, this this common initiative. And it's a very powerful force. It's a really powerful force for renewal.

01:46:18:07 - 01:46:19:14
And it's only getting stronger.

01:46:19:17 - 01:46:20:02
Only getting.

01:46:20:02 - 01:46:28:05
Stronger some more of these like John's two years old, there's more popping up all over. It's really exciting. I'm happy to be on this journey with you.

01:46:28:07 - 01:46:28:16
Thank you.

01:46:28:22 - 01:46:40:22
Very excited for what? You guys are building a battery and what's going to happen over the next decade as we begin to infuse Bitcoin into the traditional world. Thank you. Safe flight.

01:46:40:22 - 01:46:42:07

Home. Thank you, sir.

01:46:42:10 - 01:46:43:19
I'm sure I'll see you soon.

01:46:43:21 - 01:46:44:27
With pleasure. Thank you.

01:46:44:29 - 01:46:47:05
Thank you. Peace, love, freaks. Because.


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