Key Takeaways

Marty Bent and Sam Abbassi, CEO of Hoseki, examine a major policy shift by the FHA that now allows Bitcoin to count toward mortgage creditworthiness, so long as it's held on regulated exchanges, a move that clashes with Bitcoin’s self-custody ethos. Abbassi explains how Hoseki is building tools that let users prove ownership of self-custodied Bitcoin through cryptographic proofs, enabling them to leverage their holdings without giving up control. The conversation highlights Bitcoin’s accelerating integration into traditional finance, the cultural divide between Bitcoin and broader crypto, and the urgent need for engagement with policymakers to ensure self-custody is respected. As the legacy system adapts to Bitcoin, platforms like Hoseki are laying the groundwork for a financial future rooted in sovereignty, transparency, and individual empowerment.

Best Quotes

“You don’t own your money if you have to ask someone for access to it.”

“Bitcoin natively enables property rights without a monopoly on violence.”

“Bitcoin doesn’t need a legislative body to validate ownership, proof is embedded in the protocol itself.”

“This isn’t the financialization of Bitcoin, it’s the Bitcoinization of finance.”

“We’re moving from horses to cars, there are no gas stations yet, no traffic lights. We’re still building the infrastructure.”

“The frustration wasn’t just needing to sell my Bitcoin, it was having to move it at all.”

“Culture is the big differentiator. Bitcoiners think in decades. Others think in pump cycles.”

“The ability to audit the entire Bitcoin supply from your laptop is unmatched by any other monetary system.”

“If El Salvador becomes the Singapore of the West, and Bhutan the Hong Kong, everything changes.”

“We're not in it to make money, we’re in it for the money. Literally changing the money.”

Conclusion

This episode makes clear that the financialization of Bitcoin is not a threat but a transformation led by Bitcoin itself, with tools like Hoseki bridging the gap between sovereignty and regulatory compliance. The FHA’s policy shift marks a turning point in mainstream recognition of Bitcoin as a legitimate asset, but it’s up to the community to ensure that core principles like self-custody and privacy remain intact. As protocol development, financial tooling, and political engagement accelerate, the legacy system is beginning to adapt to Bitcoin, and the foundation for a Bitcoin-native economy is already being built.

Timestamps

0:00 - Intro
0:42 - The proof of reserve problem
5:38 - More on Hoseki
9:56 - Bitcoin meeting tradfi
17:01 - Bitkey & Opporunity Cost
18:40 - Market opportunities from self custody
20:34 - Property rights
23:33 - Unchained
23:58 - “It’s all crypto”
31:47 - Cypherpunk ideals
41:17 - News cycle bombardment
45:50 - Proxy exposure
48:18 - Final thoughts

Transcript

(00:00) will consider Bitcoin as an asset but you got to give up your keys It's moving much faster than I anticipated or expected Let's say a 50% kagger over the next decade One half of the.1% will be Bitcoiners in 10 years And that is a lot of wealth The administration does realize is like the opportunity of Bitcoin 2.
(00:19) 14 trillion market cap It really is going to be the next global reserve currency It'll be hundreds of trillions of dollars We need to integrate Bitcoin into as many people's lives as possible without having direct exposure Bitcoin and their pension plans or dual collateralized with real estate When we talk to banks I mean I'll tell you no one cares about anything else except for Bitcoin private property rights That's something that's under attack I just realized at that moment I don't own my money Emergency rep late on a Friday My guest here has a wedding in a little
(00:48) bit I'm uh braving the storm on the back porch in my father-in-law's beach house right now But something to talk about Uh the FHA Bill PE Bill P came out on Wednesday while Sam and I were both at the Bitcoin Policy Institute summit and announced that they are essentially taking away the spending provision that Biden put in in 2022 which basically made it so if you want to get a mortgage as a Bitcoiner and have your Bitcoin count toward your net worth you need to sell that Bitcoin hold it in a bank account hold the cash in a bank account for 3 months and then the value of that Bitcoin you sold could
(01:31) be recognized towards your net worth and towards your creditworthiness Bill PTE came out on Wednesday and said "Hey we're changing this Bitcoin and crypto holders your your wealth that's held in these assets will be recognized However they need to be held on a regulated third party exchange and uh step in the right direction massively beneficial that Bitcoiners don't have to sell their Bitcoin and their assets are being recognized towards their net worth in the eyes of banks and mortgage underwriters Um but not perfect Nothing is perfect Uh and so
(02:08) I thought let's bring on Sam Abasi co-founder CEO of Hoseki which is working to solve this problem to basically give uh institutions the ability and or individuals the ability to prove that they own Bitcoin uh while retaining self-custody to institutions Uh that was a long- winded intro so I'll throw it to you Sam Uh if you have any color to add there Thanks for having me on again Marty Um yeah good not great but you know with government stuff I think that's probably the best you can ask for It seems like we'll consider Bitcoin as an asset but you got to give up your keys So obviously not you know
(02:47) pretty anothetical to how we view the space developing and I think an antithetical to this audience and how they want to hold their assets in the first place but um it shouldn't be understated I mean that's that's a that's a huge development Yeah And we were texting back and forth about this last night Like I imagine I wrote a newsletter about it yesterday and I'm just running with the assumption that the sort of clause that says you have to hold it on a third party exchange probably stems from a lack of
(03:16) understanding of the technical bit details of Bitcoin by people uh in FHA and they're probably running through the problem in their head like all right if somebody goes and they try to claim that they have a certain amount of Bitcoin to count towards their net worth how do we know that it's actually theirs Like are they just showing me their brother's wallet their mom's wallet Did they have somebody send it to that wallet before Like how do we know it's actually associated with that individual trying to take out this loan And so I imagine I
(03:45) don't have any inside information but I'm just running with these assumptions that the trade-off they made was like all right if they have it on an exchange associated with their name that is a way in which we can confirm that it's actually theirs and they're not trying to dupe the mortgage underwriter Yeah and and we're getting more information in real time too to better assess sort of what the um what the idea was and what the inspiration was for this I mean more granularly as to why assets have to be held at a at a custodian It's just it seems like it's
(04:12) more in line with how traditional finance functions These are qualified custodians There's one publicly listed um exchange in the US that you can use So for them it just felt a lot more comfortable probably you know it's it likely has to do with the lack of understanding um with some Bitcoin fundamentals Um which is sort of been our whole purpose I mean we started the company because I couldn't get a mortgage with my self-custody assets Um realizing that they probably just want a statement something that looks familiar enough or looks legitimate enough to get you through the door Um but I think
(04:44) explaining to regulators and legislators um the nuances of actually holding your keys and being able to prove that uh you are the owner is really important I I've always sort of related this to multi-IG and multi-IG companies That's a Bitcoin primitive That's what Bitcoin does the protocol level Um but what you need is you need companies and you need services that are nice wrappers around that that you know my mom could theoretically be able to use And so we're doing the same thing um with with with Bitcoin I think the most um commonly known way to do
(05:12) this and the most like generally accepted way is by signing and verifying a message Um most Bitcoin users probably haven't done that unless they were around in 2012 13,4 Um but that is a core part of what Bitcoin does and we've just developed a nice you know experience around that Um so yeah I mean again it's a step in the right direction It's not perfect but still good Yeah And so let's let's dive deeper into like what you guys have built at Hosei for anybody listening to this Sam was on the podcast a year year and a half ago U when we did a a full like debrief but I
(05:49) think for anybody who may have listened to that or anybody who hasn't listened to that yet just I mean you briefly described it but I think diving deeper into the details of what you're doing and really leaning into the idea and illuminating the fact that you can get sort of institutional grade asurances while still being able to retain the the institutions can get the asurances from individuals holding Bitcoin in self-custody Yeah So I mean our our whole purpose for existence is to help financialize
(06:22) Bitcoin uh build tooling build a platform that makes that easier makes that more accessible um and ultimately empowers sovereign individuals people that are holding their own keys Um so when we did the first podcast it might might have been maybe yeah maybe a year and a half or two years ago at this point Um it was predominantly sort of an API connection um platike sort of experience and that's what we were selling to banks And the objective for that was to just give you more data points on your customers uh Bitcoin and they're interested in more than just
(06:51) Bitcoin but like Bitcoin holdings um whether self-custodied or on exchanges and a lot of that was education A lot of that is sort of explaining to them that you can hold this asset in different ways Uh you can actually hold them yourself which is just such a break from how traditional finance works You know you don't hold your own stock certificates you don't have gold bars in your house but in this case you can actually hold physical thing itself in your home And so that's always been a challenge in terms of education Um through a ton of feedback and a lot of iteration what we realized is um Bitcoin
(07:22) needs like sort of a platform or a set of tools in order to enable the property rights that are baked in So the coolest thing about Bitcoin is that it natively enables property rights without a monopoly on violence Um it settles and it itself is the traditional system outside of any other system be it digital or physical That's completely unique as it relates to money um it probably is sort of underemphasized but that's something we recognized early on Just like developing markets you have assets and let's say in uh the global
(07:54) south you have real estate but you don't have the frameworks to turn that asset into capital And we realize that Bitcoin's in the exact same place that global south countries are in today except we move at a much rapid and a much more accelerated pace So um sort of like the American frontier uh being able to claim like issue a claim which is what they called it back then on property that you are using that you are inhabiting that you really do practically own is really important in order to represent them and build credit
(08:25) and debt instruments on top of on top of Bitcoin So um at a very fundamental level what we do is we allow people to self-custody Bitcoin to um prove that they own that they own the UTXOs that they're trying to prove ownership over Um whether that's through manually generating a signature or it's through plugging in your treasure your ledger or whatever other cold storage device Um signing a message uh and in which case we never have access to private keys That's a really important point that we always try and emphasize with our retail users is we never touch your private
(08:57) keys We can't touch your private keys We don't want to touch your private keys and we also don't have custody of the asset itself Um so all you're doing is is is providing this data um that you have control over over to a counterparty In the in the in the first iteration it was just a statement So you have a mortgage broker you have someone that you have a relationship with that you just need to formalize your Bitcoin holdings with Um but we've enhanced it significantly where now um a counterparty be it a bank any other
(09:23) financial institution OTC trading desk um can request certain information from you So typically just that you meet a minimum balance threshold and you on the other end um in a nice like CRM docuign like experience uh can connect your Bitcoin uh prove that you own it that you have control and then share that information with what the counterparty is You see all the information that they're requesting you can request you can approve or reject it and you can always revoke access as well Um so so that really is what the platform does at a fundamental level Yeah And it's incredibly important
(09:59) because this is the way it should be done And I I think we all wish that FHA was cognizant of the ability to do this out of the gate uh when they when they made the announcement on Wednesday But I think it's important really for anybody out there whether you're at FHA or just a large institution to really internalize this this concept here and what you guys are building at Hosei because it is massive in terms of creating the ability for individuals to store their own wealth protect it but then leverage it as capital as you mentioned Um being
(10:38) able to to lay claim to the capital that they do truly own And there's been this disconnection between Bitcoin and the traditional financial system for since it launched And it does feel like we are at this inflection point where it's certainly becoming more and more understood that Bitcoin is here to stay Not only is it here to stay it is going to be integrated into our economy And I think uh it is important for us as Bitcoiners who care about being able to leverage the properties of Bitcoin to to really highlight this Not only that highlight the advantages that models
(11:13) like this provide not only for individuals but institutions as well like being able to easily verify that you own to get out a loan or whatever it may be Yeah And you know the frustration was um wanting to be able to use your Bitcoin or my Bitcoin um without having to sell it first off but also having to move it So you know there's there's there's obvious like collateralized Bitcoin lending products but I wanted an experience or I wanted tooling and I wanted the opportunity for sovereign individuals to simply be able to do something without without even having to move it There's you know um certain
(11:49) stack or a certain amount of your cold storage funds that you probably aren't that comfortable moving or you would rather not if you had some tooling or some type of credit product that would you know enable you to do something with it without actually having to move it So I think this is the first step for sure Um with mortgages specifically what's so exciting about this is there's three different qualifications for like stock portfolios that are required in order to use them um in a mortgage agreement And
(12:16) um the main thing is that it has to be considered verified And so there's three points as to what that actually means One is uh ownership proving that you own it Uh two is that it's not pledged elsewhere Um which is really important And then three is liquidity Um and what's so exciting is that the platform itself um sort of front running all of this supports all of that um today and and and will so in perpetuity ownership is done by sign message Um there's cross cross accessation protection So if someone claims ownership of a certain wallet or a certain amount of Bitcoin um no other person can do so Uh we have a
(12:49) timeout period Um there's things like you know uh um refresh signatures So basically proving that you do continue to have control throughout the duration of whatever the agreement might be Um the uh the not pledged elsewhere part is critical So being able to have like almost a clearing house of um Bitcoin data your own Bitcoin information that is being shared with a different counterparty categorized for whatever the share might um might be for Um allowing other institutions to see that this is pledged or might be pledged to elsewhere um just makes for a much more
(13:22) robust financial system the the liquidity bit is just being able to prove that you can actually sell it So that's where a little bit of the nuance comes in Connecting a Coinbase account for example and your brokerage account uh and also confirming that you own your private keys um should basically be sufficient for you to show that you can send those funds to an exchange or um elsewhere and be able to sell them immediately if if the terms of the agreement call for that Um so you know I mean our existing system is built on Cobalt Um I think trying to like monkey patch and rearrange things in a legacy
(13:53) system is probably um it's probably too late And what's cool about Bitcoin is all this stuff is natively part of the system and the controls that you can have are so so much better Um you know just understanding sort of um well being able to enable people that have held Bitcoin for a long time and giving them some sort of benefit for that is really the the crux of this But um yeah being able to monitor balances being notified when something falls below a certain threshold or goes above a certain threshold and giving the user the sovereign individual all that control um
(14:23) we're just really excited This isn't something we thought would happen this fast to be honest So we were sort of building um in anticipation of this in a few years but I guess with this new admin it's sort of you know mandated and ordered and uh now they'll have to comply Yeah Trump was literally just behind the podium singing the praises of the industry It's an incredible industry It's going to we're going to dominate it We're going to beat China And so that's what uh that's why I'm very thankful for Bitcoin Policy Institute because that's like the one thing I worry about Um as
(14:54) the administration becomes very favorable towards our industry and you consider the large amounts of money surrounding him Um some I think we definitely agree are friendly and others not so friendly really forcing bad ideas on the administration And so the Bitcoin Policy Institute doing things like they did this week with the summit are massively important to getting in front of representatives senators and people within the executive administration to make sure that we're giving them the correct and right and best information
(15:25) Um but building on what you were just describing in term let's dig into like uh pledging funds making sure that funds aren't double pledged or rehypothecated on an individual level if you will How do you guys go about that So we have the data with um we we have the data with respect to what wallets or what addresses are being shared with any other counterparty So those are categorized and we'll have to iterate as well based on what the government needs Um but those are categorized according to what the terms of the sort of we we
(15:55) call it a share request but basically what the terms of the of the of the pledge collateral are If they're used for um collateral that can be called upon later if they're simply data points for them to assess their customer better um those are all different parameters that we have that the institution can see on their end that the customer also um uh voluntarily submits So um to improve sort of having this well the network effects are critical So having like this clearing house model where you know that certain assets that are being shared with you are already being shared in another location at a very minimum at
(16:28) a foundational level um gives you some some some better data as as to as to what the funds are being used for in the first place Um so I think a lot of this is building from first principles which frankly I mean just on your point with the BPI that's I think what they're doing so well is merit really does pay off and I think those guys are thinking about have been thinking about the space from a first principles perspective that does show and carry on in this case to legislators and regulators and they see that Um and I think just sort of staying true to your conviction has really paid
(16:57) dividends Um so yeah can't can't be more thankful to uh to BPI Sup freaks This rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey Bitkey makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a 203 multiig You have one key on the hardware wallet one key on your mobile device and block stores a key in the cloud for you This is an incredible hardware device for your friends and family or maybe yourself who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a long time but haven't taken the step to self- custody because they're worried about the complications of setting up a
(17:33) private public key pair securing that seed phrase setting up a pin setting up a passphrase Again Bit Key makes it easy to use hard to lose It's the easiest zero to one step Your first step to self-custody If you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't moved it off tell them to pick up a bit key Go to bit.
(17:51) world Use the key TFTC 20 at checkout for 20% off your order That's bit.world code TFTC20 Sup freaks guess what We launched a browser extension It's called Opportunity Cost and it helps you see the true cost of everything in Bitcoin Convert prices to Bitcoin as you browse the web Opportunity cost automatically displays fiat prices in Bitcoin or SATS helping you think in a Bitcoin standard It works on Amazon Zillow X your bank account QuickBooks So you can convert everything to Bitcoin It's really cool It's also 100% open- source MIT license We don't
(18:25) collect any data All of the conversions happen in your browser on your local device It's a great way to recalibrate your life and begin thinking in SATs Go check it out at opportunitycost.app That's opportunitycost.app Yeah Let's paint the picture for all the politicians and members of the administration potentially the president that are listening to this episode Uh what does giving an individual the ability to preserve self-custody and do all these things what does that open up from like a market perspective and consumer protections perspective Yes
(19:02) Well I mean we can speculate but I think if you understand Bitcoin's ethos and Bitcoin sort of fundamental principles then um not building something like this and not sort of going in this direction is is doing a disservice to the space And I just don't think it'll be something that would possibly play out I mean the sovereignty you have with holding your own assets just can't be understated Um you know I remember I think one of the things that orange filled me before I even knew about Bitcoin was trying to get money out of an ATM um hitting my max needing to take
(19:33) more money out calling the bank and being told that the money in my account is mine but the card that I'm using to withdraw those funds I don't own And um I just realized at that moment I don't I don't I don't own my money Uh there's a million different constraints and hurdles between me and the money that I am supposed to own or supposed to have access to Um self-custody completely turns it on its head And I think building very basic um frankly I think in retrospect things that will be very obvious tooling that enables you to do
(20:05) things with it which at at the most basic simplest levels being able to say this is mine and I think the this might sound sort of like metallicy but I think the I think the things that you can build on top of this will sort of um surprise a lot of us I think in a world that's becoming increasingly unstable um not that we want it to go in that direction but simply is I think empowering the individual um and and giving them tooling to do that is going to unlock just a whole new sort of set of financial products
(20:35) Yeah it's uh and we discussed this when you're on the podcast last but I I think it's important like when you look out at the world and how the flourishing economies are actually able to emerge it all comes back to private property rights the ability to protect your private property And I think to your point about the world getting more chaotic and more uncertain that's something that's under attack is private property rights whether that's via um overt uh extreme taxation or just simply asset forfeite Um that was more of a risk under the Biden administration
(21:15) but I think we'd be naive to think that it could not be a risk in the future And Bitcoin as a peer-to-p peer distributed network that runs on private public key cryptography really sort of cements private property rights for money in the 21st century which cannot be understated and to your point I don't think we have even scratched the surface of the types of systems that we can build on top of that primitive Yeah and I think I mean the two main points I emphasize and if anyone from the admin is actually listening or anyone high up like these are two uh key
(21:50) takeaways that I hope people just take away in general um one is Bitcoin's audit function which I I really do think is probably one of the most underhasized um features of of of the Bitcoin protocol The fact that any third party can download a server or download something and audit the entire supply of this money is I mean um it's just completely novel Um and also it's unmatched I mean you can't do that with US dollars There's no USD server I can just download as as SAM Um and also no one knows how many US dollars exist Um Euro dollars makes that worse obviously Um but even with gold no one knows
(22:30) exactly how much gold exists in the world um even just above ground gold and obviously you're finding gold mines you know sort of as time goes on Um but that that function of Bitcoin is so so important as it relates to like any economy but you're talking about a jurisdictionalist global economy and the money that powers it So so that point is is really really important which is where the proof of reserves bit um comes in But the other point is the property rights It's it's these property rights are baked in Um there there is no legislative body There is no uh
(22:59) regulatory body that has to do anything here um the protocol itself can confirm and you can prove and you actually have the sovereignty to say that this is my asset this is what I own Um and you don't have the legal hurdles in between I mean doing that with I mean there's a reason why we have title insurance for homes Um that's a difficult problem even in our current system with probably the most basic asset that most people do own which which is their home Um so if you can apply that sort of if you can find a fix for that problem and do that at the level of money I again I mean um yeah I
(23:30) just I just think it's I think it's incredible Serious about your Bitcoin Start acting like it Unchain just launched the financial freedom bundle a curated pack that includes a premium Bitcoin book a new hardware wallet guide and access to a private macro event with Tur de Mester Legend It's time to take control of your generational wealth Go to unchained.comTFTC to request yours That's unchained.
(23:56) comTFTC Pretty hot package freaks Go pick it up There's a bit of a tangent but um uh recalling Alex Gladstein speech from the summit earlier this week And that's the other thing about this uh I'm sure you've seen the memes too about what FHA put out on Wednesday It's like it's all crypto is in encompassing the this this sort of new guideline And that worries me cuz like they just bundle in Bitcoin with everything else And doesn't worry me like and that's the other thing There was a lot of misconceptions people
(24:30) thought it was like you can use Bitcoin as collateral for loans which you can using some services like Milo and others that already exist But um in terms of like separating Bitcoin from crypto I don't want to say it rubbed me the wrong way but it does worry me that everything's getting lumped together because as we both know and most people listening to this know Bitcoin is starkly different from crypto and has a completely different risk profile So in terms of creating a precedent of just like lumping them in together via this it's it's a bit unnerving too And I think we
(25:07) have to continue to do a good job because I think the last few years industry has been really good about drawing a line between Bitcoin Bitcoin and broader crypto But like when it comes to things like this like proving your actual net worth like I think it's safe to say that uh net worth proven because you hold Bitcoin versus holding Fartcoin is probably more legitimate and accurate over the long run I mean a lot of this again is is cultural Um we see this in our conversations with banks all the time like they don't know what Bitcoin is and by virtue of that they also don't know what anything else in the space is
(25:47) either So for them like we have to and it's like chewing glass We have to we have we have to say crypto and use the term crypto because that's just what they know and understand while still advocating and emphasizing Bitcoin as a completely different thing um in the space So that's always been a challenge I think it'll continue to be a challenge Not for too long Um so I don't I don't really uh knock PY and the uh the FH um FA for that too much just because I think I think they're using language that most other financial institutions also use purely because of a lack of
(26:17) familiarity Maybe not even education but just but just familiarity in the space Um but in terms of being worried about it I mean you know Bitcoin is going to prove its merits on its own and and it has And I think over time that sort of separation is getting um stronger and stronger Um when we talk to banks I mean I'll tell you no one cares about anything else except for Bitcoin Um and stables is a is is the close second but that's really it Um so I can't ever I mean I I really don't imagine mortgages being um underwritten with anything but Bitcoin for now Uh maybe also stables
(26:50) but I think that probably would be the extent of it because they're very conservative I mean traditional finance is a very conservative industry Well I mean within within a reason it should be conservative but um at least at a policy level it's conservative So I I don't I'm not too concerned about you know um things getting muddy too much I think I think over time it'll be it'll be rather obvious if it isn't already Yeah And I I don't want to be the boy who cried wolf because I've been saying this for like two or three cycles now but I do feel like this is the one where it's it's
(27:20) become abundantly clear that Bitcoin is different If you just look at the the the pairs of Bitcoin and any other uh ETH BTC Soul BTC whatever it may be it's all going down And the signal is with the pristine collateral asset which is Bitcoin And that's what's really exciting about this cycle is like Bitcoin is pristine collateral is beginning to be recognized Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean the performance itself obviously like it's just number go up is really what most people especially outside of the space care about Um but you know culture shouldn't
(27:53) be understated either I mean you mentioned the VPI They intentionally called themselves the Bitcoin Policy Institute when they could have picked a bunch of different names that were maybe more encompassing or more friendly or more familiar to the people that they'll be talking to but they you know put their put their stake in the ground Um lucky for us and lucky for the whole space And if you go to these I mean I've I've said this a lot on different um panels but if you you know if you compare this is now kind of dated So
(28:18) this is really like 2019 type of 2018 almost type of conference knowledge but if you go to these different events and you meet different people there's a clear difference in how they approach the space and not to discredit other communities but you know the Bitcoin space is much more serious Um I mean early on I think that seriousness was more cipher punk and maybe see would have seemed a bit more threatening but I think at the sort of professional level which is sort of where we're where we're at and where we're going towards um they are just a lot more I don't have a
(28:48) better word but legitimate um having conversations with Bitcoiners with serious Bitcoiners who are trying to promote policy and trying to move the needle as opposed to having conversations with Ripple folks or with folks that are trying to promote DeFi um is categorically different And I think the culture is really just taking care of itself Yeah It's like we're not in it to make the money we're in it for the money which is like literally changing the money you see and I I completely agree and it's it's I guess it's hard to
(29:17) describe to any outsider who hasn't experienced it for themselves But I think when I like this week when you meet for Bitcoin like we're thinking 30 40 years down the line thinking about our children the world they're going to live in where DeFi is thinking about like all right what's the next token that's going to launch and how are we going to how are we going to make a bag on that and then rug and it's like it's completely unserious to the point where it's becoming laughable or it's like it seems like you don't there's been no consistent principles u even if just I
(29:48) think Ethereum's the great example of the uh like a caricature of just like a shitcoin that thought it was going to compete with Bitcoin and just completely changed its principles on the go once every other year it seems Um whereas Bitcoin's been pretty consistent It only ever be 21 million nodes run the network We're going to mine as much we're going to get as much hash rate as we can We're going to preserve sovereignty and we're going to integrate it into the financial system Yeah And I mean to your to your point
(30:19) like everything here is long-term um our perspective is long-term We think in decades which is how empires typically think as well Um in the Ethereum space I mean I think I think the the demographic that's been most amendable to Ethereum's like world's computer world's computing platform narrative is has been have been people that made a lot of money in the com boom Um I think I think that that seems like a parallel if you know um that was a good outcome for you And I can see why that might be you know um enticing too because it seems like it's that exact same thing but a little bit
(30:53) more enhanced Um a little bit more complicated unnecessarily but a little bit more enhanced And um and I think Bitcoiners see that that's not really the value here um you might be able to do some uh like relatively interesting things on you know an inferior sort of database with um like inferior logic But if you're here to fundamentally change the way money works or if you recognize that money is fundamentally changing um then the answer is pretty obvious So yeah I think I think with DC and I've spent more time there now than I care to
(31:28) admit but in DC it's like I think they're starting to see that Um the admin has been incredibly helpful as well and we have you know crypto ZAR Um so that's so that's helping Um but yeah the culture for me is the big is the big differentiator Yeah Yeah And that's I mean and it's I'm very happy to see that DC's waking up and and this was discussed and I think we've discussed it before but you mentioned it too like uh the early years of Bitcoin very cippher punk focused very serious ideals and I think
(31:58) those ideals still exist at the base layer of of Bitcoin both socially and at the protocol level but as we've seen over the course of years particularly during the Biden administration like you may not care about political power but it cares about you and you have to engage un with that understanding in mind and we've done a good job of doing that in the last two years and I think hearkening back to Trump's comments that I mentioned earlier I think the administration does realize is like the opportunity Bitcoin at a 2 trillion 2.14
(32:31) trillion market cap and if it really is going to be the next global reserve currency it'll be hundreds of trillions of dollars so the opportunity to really win in this market is on the table if you're thinking at a nation state level And it it makes sense that if you understand that that you would try to make sure that your country is positioned well uh in terms of the industry being enabled to flourish And again I've said it earlier but I think that's what most Bitcoiners particularly those of us with the cyber punk ideals that the network really grew up on worry about is like getting cucked by
(33:10) traditional finance and you've been having conversations with banks That's one thing I'm interested to get your perspective on is like who influences who more Do the banks influence Bitcoin more Does Bitcoin influence the banks more over the long run or the financial system Because I've I've been running with this mean everybody is saying the financialization of Bitcoin I'm saying no it's the Bitcoinization of finance which isn't a bad thing Yeah Yeah Yeah Exactly I mean I think that's what we're seeing to be honest at from a from a
(33:35) company perspective as a CEO we've been sort of prepping for either outcome because we may have our um assumptions but we're not sure which is going to play out But I think it is a latter I think I hadn't heard I hadn't heard that term but that is I think what's happening is the Bitcoinization of finance which is so exciting to see Um just your point about like nation state adoption I mean the leaprog effect is what I'm is what I'm most excited about is you know sort of obviously it's the ones that have the least to lose or just
(33:58) getting destroyed by the existing system that are going to adopt something that's like I mean I guess technically unproven over a long over a longer time um horizon Um but you know if El Salvador genuinely does become the Singapore of the West and if Bhutan becomes like Hong Kong um things things shift and and that's just exciting to watch and and sort of live through Um one thing I one thing I'm honestly a little bit apprehensive about and um not to be a wet blanket but just to just to be cautious is sort of the apolitical nature of Bitcoin and um being too closely aligned with one side or the
(34:33) other Um I think that's important because you know administrations change politics itself um there's this there's this phrase that politics is like an orphan child Um it it's it's it's it sort of goes with the wind and you've got to be careful and you got to be pretty cognizant of like what you relate yourself to closely to So you know I'm I'm I'm incredibly thankful for now not you know living in fear that my corporate bank account my personal bank account might get closed That's nice Um it feels you know less like I'm in the Soviet Union Um but at the same time you
(35:03) know I think as Bitcoiners we got to you know it's the whole tr uh don't what is it tr uh don't don't trust verify ethos including with politicians I agree with that uh that last statement but I push back like yeah uh I don't know Look what's going on in New York City right now Like those people will never get Bitcoin Like overt socialist like I'm talking about Zo Zoran uh Mum Donnie whatever his name is who just won the Democratic primary Like that's I agree Bitcoin is for anyone It's for everyone who wants to use it both sides of the aisle But there are
(35:39) and I I tweeted this out I'm not sure if you saw the um the email that Peter Teal sent suck uh Mark Andre and a few others in 2020 asking like the millennial question and basically brought out the fact like people our age uh you and I uh most of us uh most of our demo like has student loans can't buy a house delaying family formation many still living with their parents and they have this like um they have this very negative outlook on the future because they can't build capital and they're turning to these
(36:15) socialist ideas which many were forced on us via indoctrination via the schooling system but nevertheless they're like identifying the problem which is wealth gap inflation can't afford anything and a lot of them are moving to the wrong solution so I I think conservatives specifically recognize that obviously socialism isn't isn't the solution but I I think we should lean into that recognition because uh of millennial and now Gen Z specifically sort of leaning towards socialist tendencies because they feel like they have no no
(36:52) other way to to make it in the world So they're just going to take things from others to really embrace Bitcoin Like a tweet I sent out is like any conservative who really cares about the encroachment of these socialist tendencies across the country should be vehemently incorporating Bitcoin into as many verticals as possible Yeah of I mean I would I would I would I would relate that more to libertarianism Um because Bitcoin I think is the application of libertarianism It I don't think there was any practical way to actually be a libertarian or do anything
(37:24) about that until Bitcoin came into play So if you're a libertarian and not a Bitcoiner you're probably confused Um remember in politics it's all about power I mean money is a function of power What's surprising to me is the lack of left-leaning um left-leaning governments and left-leaning even provincial governments that are that are looking at Bitcoin or been thinking about adopting Bitcoin Um I think technically Belly as a populist I think he was a little bit more leftleaning with respect to Salvabadorian politics But if it if the
(37:54) if the game is power consolidation um it it it should work just as well for them as it does for the conservatives Um and knowing that conservatives and and really just any political party that happens to be in power is looking to control and maintain power as best as they can And Bitcoin as an asset that's appreciating in value and will have economic influence globally just serves that function So I don't know I I I've been thinking about that too the sort of conservative and liberal dynamic and which way it sort of goes into and I'm
(38:26) not convinced it's either way I just think at a governmental level it's about power consolidation Yeah No And I was uh I didn't get to bring that up but I think the the point I was like being an opportunist as a Bitcoiner like when you see that one party like and that's why I think I think having like the Human Rights Foundation in Bitcoin like this I won't I won't beat around the bush like I definitely have more conservative values I'm I'm been married since I was 25 I've got children I care about their education I don't want the school system transing my kids Like I I'm very conservative in that regard and
(39:05) it just seems opportunistic right now to really lean into the conservative side of the aisle who recognizes these problems and we can highlight to them hey Bitcoin can help you achieve uh a lot of the goals that you have and solve a lot of the problems that you have But that's why I love the human rights foundation You go like the other side like the human rights activists which typically associated with the left like hey Bitcoin can empower these individuals too That was my favorite track on Wednesday was the hourlong track of all the activists explaining
(39:34) how they use Bitcoin in Iran uh in uh Gaza in Russia in Ukraine in Venezuela You have like all these different sort of problem areas of the world that many people feel uh very passionate about on both sides of each individual problem Um Bitcoin's just there in the middle for anybody who's subjected to the the uh the horrors of either an infringing external army or a despotic government um internally And so you can like I guess the point I'm trying to make is like Bitcoin so dynamic that you have the ability to sort of like lean into whoever needs it most at any given point in time Yeah exactly That that's that's
(40:16) what I think is so incredible about its flexibility Um and remember we're looking at this from from the perspective of a US political spectrum and it's different globally I mean Europe generally is just more left-leaning so that spectrum just looks different Um but yeah I mean I think the point I'm trying to make here is just that it it I still think it's apolitical I know in the US it uh is being embraced by the conservative side of the political aisle um more so And that's a great thing for us I mean there's
(40:42) nothing wrong with that and I'm happy about that Um but because it's jurisdictionalist and because it it really doesn't function any different as it relates to the culture that it's implements in um and the political nuances whatever that culture might be leaning to at that time period or otherwise Um Bitcoin's still going to blocks are still going to get mined and transactions are still going to process through And so um I just yeah just just just just being aware of that fact I think is something important in sort of this wave of adoption that we're going
(41:10) through and this like zeitgeist and this insane amount of dopamine hits that we're getting just watching this thing happen That's been a big theme of mine on this show and in the newsletter the last two months is like they're hitting you with dopam Matt and I just talked about rabbit hole recap like the US bombs Iran's nuclear enrichment facilities last Friday That feels like a month ago It feels like that narrative is already beginning to be swept under the rug We had Elon saying that Trump was on the Epstein list like the week
(41:38) before that And there's a number of these dopamine hits forgotten that only happened a month ago And what I've been telling people just blinders on stay focused keep building Uh if you're working a job make sure you're not you're saving more than you're spending saving that in Bitcoin just like that's what I I've been intentionally trying to stay out of the day-to-day morass of the news cycle because it's just completely distracting and nothing ever happens Well and that's why it's important to think like and I and I mentioned this earlier like um just geopolitically you
(42:14) know Iran China Russia these old empires and and the remnants of really do you think in terms of centuries um and they're willing to you know people are sort of expendable in that pursuit as well and and that is incredibly austere for people living at whatever time they may be afflicted by those kind of things But for the empire itself it does it does generate a longlasting culture And I think in the US you know we've got a really short memory And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we're still so young Um you know Iraq was not
(42:45) long ago and we're getting the exact same the like the like the exact same pitch deck on going to war again to the Middle East And um you know I haven't I haven't seen any comparisons side by side And I was pretty young when when we when we first went into Iraq but from what I remember what I what I've researched and what I'm seeing now it's the exact same talking points And frankly a lot of it's the exact same people as well promoting this And we have that short-term memory which I think can be disruptive in the short term But Bitcoiners and I think it's important to like emphasize this do
(43:16) think on a longer term perspective Obviously you've got your day-to-day stuff You've got your bills to pay dayto-day So you have to make sure those are accounted for and taken care of But having that decades long you know we're individuals so thinking in centuries is a bit ridiculous unless you're Michael Sailor But for us thinking in decades I think is really critical And that will enable our survival um either as sovereign individuals or as a collective culture and hopefully it's the latter Yeah Weapons of mass destruction back on the table Hey I remember that one I remember I was down in South Carolina
(43:44) and 911 happened a couple years after And I vividly remember being like fourth or fifth grade and like them having like straw polls for like going to war and the school was like beating the war drums like we're going to Iraq and it was like what like this is insane Uh luckily today we have better communications technology to get good messages out there And I do think I think we saw first in Syria when Obama tried to bomb them um for the chemical weapons stuff that was very handwavy Um social media people got on social media like this And I think that's happening with Iran right now Hopefully it is happening with Iran right now too
(44:22) Um but to your point going back to like long-term thinking and um money is power particularly within politics it reminded me of a presentation Tur de Mester gave at Bitcoin Park Austin last year uh during the Bitcoin urbanism little event that we had there and it's like it is crazy when you think about it Bitcoin continues on this trajectory and I think this is this is manifested in the last two years with the political activist activism that Bitcoiners have been engaged in Like as Bitcoin continues
(44:50) let's say the 50% kagger over the next decade like it's I think the stats tour throughout there is like one half of the.1% will be Bitcoiners in 10 years So that continues and that is a lot of wealth that can be used to affect the change that we want to see in the world Yeah that's I mean it's a it's a good thing and a bad thing think you can get a bit jaded you know especially being in your 30s and having seen what's sort of happened live streamed over the last 10 years and continues to be Um that's a
(45:20) good thing and a bad thing I mean you know what how are bitcoiners going to be seen in that world Um how are bitcoiners going to be seen in a world where there generations that never even had the opportunity to look at and own Bitcoin um like we did Um granted this wasn't just by accident a lot of us suffered and and and put in the work But um yeah that's something I think about quite often is is is if this does play out to scale which it is what um yeah how does how does the culture change and and how are we perceived in that in that culture And I don't have an answer yet Yeah I
(45:51) think we had this discussion over coffee a couple weeks ago the uh the uh that's why like I think what you're doing is so important not only you but others like I completely agree with that that sort of thought experiment like all right what are people and like I in terms of like my next 10 years like the push I'm making over the next decade is we need to integrate Bitcoin into as many people's lives as possible without having direct exposure so that they uh experience the benefits of having even like proxy exposure to Bitcoin and their
(46:23) pension plans or if it's dual collateralized with real estate and like in in their neighborhoods if there's enough Bitcoin um sort of dual collateralized buildings and houses in in a neighborhood that it helps keep the neighborhood afloat um while inflation continues unabashed like that I think that is something that we don't talk about enough and like why tools like hosei are so important because it just normalizes and makes bitcoin simply another option in the incumbent system like that's I think I won't speak for everybody but that that's like personally what I think
(46:59) like the the number one goal should be is like if people aren't going to go on Cash App on Strike on River and like Smash Buy DCA with their paychecks like it's incumbent on us to make sure that they have exposure without even knowing it Yeah And I know you agree with this but the idea of sort of building and having my own citadel on an island by myself or with my tiny little community like isn't that enticing What's more enticing is enabling something that can get rid of these forever wars that can get rid of this you know debt slavery that we live in Um that's exciting and
(47:32) that's the world that I think a lot of us are building towards So yeah we're starting with hey I'm Sam I own this Bitcoin Let me do something with it And um you know I'm obviously speaking in simplistic terms but I think that's the building block for an incredible new world Yeah But it's like again it's normalizing like that's why we launched opportunity cost to just like normalize pricing things in Bitcoin for people like create that mimemetic power to get out there But like simple things like being able to go to Plaid and like oh there's a hosei button What is that Like
(48:00) click that Oh you can you can connect your hose via plaid It's becoming completely normal Like Bitcoin is part of the economy You can go to Steak and Shake and buy uh buy your burger and and milkshake with with Bitcoin Like it's it's incredible I'll I'll take that as a win Yeah Yeah All right So let's bring this back to the core subject of why we're here to talk which is this FHA FHF FA whatever the acronym alphabet soup um agency for housing that owns Fatty May Freddy Mack Like what would you like to see from them moving forward just engaging um with us and recogn like how
(48:42) how can we best um equip them with the knowledge to understand that people should not only be able to but can hold Bitcoin in self-custody and verify that they own they own Bitcoin Yeah So we built this from first principles If we want to see um this Bitcoin financial system take place then this is how it will have to function So now now that you know FH FA has you know sort of ordered this and now that it's been approving or approved in a more um uh governmental sense uh judicial not judicial but in a governmental sense um now it's sort of question and answer
(49:20) time So what I would love to see is engagement is um you know first of all understanding from them exactly what the requirements are um at a more nuanced level to really get this underwriting process going um and then two is hearing from us as well um as to what this asset can do because again I think I think the first push with having to move your funds to exchanges in order to qualify for these types of things is is probably just lowhanging fruit and it's the most obvious thing I think for um a much more m mature industry which is where we're at now but um really taking the time to
(49:52) understand the the the asymmetric benefits of what Bitcoin can do is critical So I would just love more engagement from the government Um again folks from the BPI are doing all the leg work um in terms of providing all the educational resources and providing the resources for these questions Um but yeah I'd love engagement Let's engage Bill Py Logan we're going to clip this We're going to clip that last part We're going to get it going on on Twitter Noster wherever We're gonna start the conversation Bill I know you're a Bitcoiner I don't know if you
(50:22) remember he was doing like Bitcoin giveaways during COVID Uh he was a he like retweet this and I'll give one random person like $10,000 worth of Bitcoin He he gets it Um at least he had exposure to Bitcoin But no I think it's uh and again I do want to reiterate it's not perfect but it's a step in the right direction and that is incredibly encouraging to see especially considering what we just went through in the pre previous administration um for four years And I'm incredibly bullish Uh and let's end it on your
(50:55) thoughts like how how are you thinking about I know we're thinking in decades but in your mind like what is the highest priority in the next year two years three years I mean really just continuing in the direction we're going into I mean it's moving much faster than I anticipated or expected Um I'm writing a piece now that hopefully I can sort of put my thoughts together a little bit more um uh succinctly but um I think understanding where we are and what we're trying to accomplish is critical So my perspective where we are is a third world country Um
(51:32) you know we are just moving from cars from horses to cars There's no infrastructure for these cars There are no gas stations There's no traffic lights Um roads aren't paved And we're in that exact same spot now Things are moving quickly Roads roads pretty much are getting paved We're still missing some gas stations But um I would just love to see uh more Bitcoin financial products more interesting Bitcoin financial products Um hopefully leveraging our platform um and really expanding this to the capability that it can get to Um but yeah the uh or the way you put it the the Bitcoinization of
(52:05) finance is what I really want this next year to be focused on We're going to make it happen Where can anybody listening to this learn more about HOKI what you guys are up to and how they can use it Yeah we're at um www.hoski.app um hoseiapp on X or Twitter and Sam Aabasi um on X or Twitter We'll link to all that in the show notes Sam I know you've got an event to attend to tonight I hope you enjoy your Friday night and thank you for hopping on quickly this this Friday afternoon I think uh the timing was perfect for this
(52:36) Yeah No I appreciate the time Thanks Marty All right Peace and love freaks Freaks Thank you for listening to the show I hope you liked it If you did like it please make sure you subscribe rate review the show It helps us out a lot And also if you like these conversations I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast They don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company We have the newsletter the Bitcoin Brief Go to TFTC.io Make sure you subscribe there A lot of the topics
(53:05) that are discussed on this podcast I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter We also have the TFTC elite tier If you sign up for that become a member We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early Logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early become a TFTC Elite member You will get that We have our Discord server right now conversation between myself and TFTC
(53:42) elite tier members but we're going to expand that We'll probably do closed Q&As with people in the industry Uh I may be doing macro Mondays So join us Go to tftc.io subscribe find the button in the top right corner of the website become a TFTC Elite member Thank you for joining us

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