Tuur Demeester reveals why Bitcoin is evolving into the world’s default collateral and explains how much BTC investors may need to retire securely in an inflationary era.
Tuur Demeester argues that Bitcoin is entering a new phase as pristine collateral, driving longer and less volatile cycles while drawing capital away from bonds, real estate, and gold. Inflation running 10–15%, deficits above Great Depression levels, and rising institutional adoption make Bitcoin both a hedge and a generational wealth vehicle. He recommends allocations ranging from 5% as “insurance” to 20–50% for those seeking early retirement, stressing discipline in holding through volatility and secure custody via multi-sig. With millennials priced out of housing and sovereign adoption rising, Bitcoin is steadily evolving into the cornerstone of a fairer, more resilient monetary order.
“Bitcoin as pristine collateral really sees its day.”
“As an asset class matures, it should get less volatile over time and we should have longer cycles.”
“Real inflation rates are somewhere between 10 and 15% for the dollar.”
“Adding just a little bit of Bitcoin all of a sudden changes the behavior of your entire portfolio.”
“Think about an amount that no matter what, you can hold for five years, even if it crashes 80 or 90%.”
“It’s very easy to imagine another 4x from here, or even a 10x.”
“If you’re a millennial priced out of housing, why not rent and own Bitcoin instead?”
“One kilogram of gold has been Bitcoin’s resistance for years. Eleven kilograms is the next magnet.”
“With AI, social hacks are increasing by an order of magnitude. Multi-sig isn’t optional anymore.”
“Bitcoin retools monetary energy into a force for peace, scarce, incorruptible money that protects families across time.”
Demeester’s analysis frames Bitcoin as more than a speculative asset, it is becoming the system’s default collateral and a practical hedge against fiat debasement. Whether used to preserve wealth, accelerate retirement, or provide financial freedom in nations under monetary stress, Bitcoin’s trajectory reflects growing institutional trust and individual adoption. With longer cycles, stronger fundamentals, and increasing global relevance, it is steadily transforming into the backbone of a new monetary era.
0:00 - Intro
1:09 - Proto Rig and bull markets
5:33 - Tuur's new report
7:59 - On chain data
11:01 - Change in cycles and Mark Hart principles
17:05 - Bitkey & Opportunity Cost
18:44 - Pristine collateral
22:16 - Global macro
25:08 - Bitcoin/gold
31:25 - Unchained
32:11 - BTC treasury companies
41:25 - Bitcoin/commodities
49:57 - Real estate/commodities
54:12 - Banking consolidation & bitcoin backing
1:17:34 - Allocation strategies
(00:00) If you're thinking about reducing the age of retirement, you could consider 20 to 50% of your assets invested in Bitcoin. If you have more risk appetite, you can still stay in Bitcoin. You go to the treasury companies. It turns into a mania. And we had new treasury companies launching, buying stock in other treasury companies.
(00:18) And it's very easy to imagine another 4x from here or even a 10x. People are like, "No, Bitcoin couldn't be worth more than all the gold in the world." And of course, you and I think, well, of course it can. The money printing is not going away. It's probably likely to increase from here. Those are numbers higher than the Great Depression. You can see that we're in a bull market.
(00:33) If you look at what the whales are doing, they are moving some coins. As an asset class matures, it should get less volatile over time and we should have longer cycles. This is the cycle where Bitcoin has pristine collateral really sees its day. With the Bitcoin strategy companies, we're seeing that kind of on steroids.
(00:53) You used to be able to borrow $40 for every $100 worth of Micro Strategy stock. Now all of a sudden, you have to put up 20x overcolateralization. Now, if we have another crash, everybody is assuming bailouts, stagflation, that that's the decade that we're in. It's like a dead horse. Like, you can pump adrenaline into it all you want, but it's dead.
(01:14) How do you compete with Bitcoin, you know? It's just tur turo. Oh, how the tables have turned. You're sitting in a a seat that I dearly miss. Oh, yes. You're the one who's being grilled today. I don't I don't know if I could take a grilling today. It's been a long travel day. It's a good one. Yeah. And and I got Logan here in my corner, so he he's going to like slip me those uh those questions, the uncomfortable questions to ask.
(01:38) You you'll find that he's not very helpful in that regard. He's uh he he he just puts that I'm kidding, Logan. I'm kidding. Very helpful. If you have if you have hard-hitting questions for me that you want to pass to Tur, make sure you do it. He's he's already doing it in like sign language. We we got this thing going.
(01:56) H it's a great way to end a week. I'm happy that uh I know my flight was a little delayed. Uh as I was telling you, might as well tell the audience audience too. I'm getting back from Georgia where Blocks uh proto team, their proto mining team unveiled their Bitcoin mining rig called the rig and their fleet software.
(02:17) It was a really good event. really good day for Bitcoin I think as somebody's been in the mining industry and I think it's been a bullish week overall uh not only the proto mining event but we had Baltic Honeybadger conference where the ARC second layer protocol is being tested out um with the BTC pay server merchants went swimmingly. Wow, that's awesome. I've heard great things about ARC.
(02:42) So yeah, I'm I'm curious to learn more. Yeah. So, this is like on the tech side. Obviously, a lot of people are focused on Bitcoin treasury companies, what's happening on Capitol Hill, which I'm sure we'll touch on in this discussion, but just like set up this discussion, like I'm incredibly bullish, uh, particularly having seen what I saw this week in person and observing what was going on in other parts of the world.
(03:12) and not my bullish for the those reasons, but you've done something that you haven't done and you're how long you've been writing reports for Adamant. Did you start in 2012 or 2013? I I chose the adamant name back in early 2015. So, the first report was Yeah. like April 2015 or something. Okay. So, it's 10 years. Yep. Yep. and and historically whenever you've written a report, it's been in the depths of the bare market and you have a a very uh phenomenal way of releasing your reports right when the price seems to hit a hit a local bottom. Yeah, I start writing when I feel sick and I usually publish right around the
(03:49) time when I'm starting to feel better and uh that that's worked out well. um sick in the sense that I feel like I'm so bullish and that the the market is just so despondent and just doesn't care anymore and that that's usually the motivation. But yeah, so this time around it felt like I it is a little bit similar only in the sense that I think I still I disagree with the market.
(04:23) I'm just seeing a lot of people that are like, well, they're just not very bullish, you know, and I I'm like, what what's happening? Like you guys, retail is like nowhere to be seen. I think like I'm starting to feel like some friends and family like for the first time now that we're really at new all-time highs, but but that's not a exuberance uh indicator to me. That's just the beginning of public participation to me.
(04:49) So, felt like a good time to, you know, uh, revise the report cuz it's been 2 years since, uh, my last report, uh, which I think was like, what was it? April, April or May 2023. Mhm. I think it was like $27,000 Bitcoin. And the one of the one of the price targets was like, hey, we think this is going to go to 120,000 and beyond.
(05:12) So, now we hit 120. So, that also felt like a good time to to um yeah, just look at the report again and and reissue it. Uh it's not a complete rewrite, but the significant parts I I just, you know, I I like pulled out entire things and I I plugged in new parts that were just completely updated. Yeah.
(05:37) So, let's jump into it cuz I feel like I have the same feeling where even though we're what $7,000 give or take away from all-time highs which were hit earlier this week, people are somewhat bearish in my mind. I don't think I think uh despite the fact that Bitcoin is up massively over the last two years since you uh wrote the original version of this report, we're up 100% 103% in the last year.
(06:04) And if you go back to May 2023 when you wrote the first version, we were hovering around 26,000. So up almost 5x from there, a 6 6x uh 6 1/2x from there. So a 6 and a half return and yet people are still bearish which is fascinating um considering all the tailwinds that we have at our backs right now.
(06:34) But you wrote a 23page report um released it with adamant and unchained. And so what did you feel was most necessary to revise and remind people of at this point in the cycle? Yeah, the the revising I felt like the global macro picture has changed, you know, not fundamentally, but the numbers are different. Uh I think it's more clear where we're going. I think inflation is really ahead.
(07:01) It's already happening. I think we're real inflation rates are somewhere between 10 and 15% for the dollar. So it means like you know we have a every year it's losing 10 to 15% in value. Um and uh and and at the same time we have a lot more regulatory clarity. So we have a very kind of pro- Bitcoin administration which uh was not the case back when I wrote the report.
(07:27) Uh I don't think the ETFs had even dropped yet when No, they hadn't when uh the report was published. And then I think the nation state adoption has changed as well like that picture looks different. uh when I published it um Micro Strategy had uh of course already launched but there were no copycats yet. We just had one TRA treasury strategy company and that was it.
(07:52) Whereas now it's very clearly a trend and probably even an industry in the making. So those are some some big changes. Yeah. And one thing I love about Bitcoin and which actually surprised me a bit when I was reading through your report uh on the plane earlier this week. Uh one thing that I love about Bitcoin open- source transparent ledger.
(08:19) you can really glean a lot of sentiment and know what's happening uh with Bitcoin by just look simply looking at the chain looking at Coinbase Destroyed and seeing what long-term hodlers or short-term hodlers are doing and uh if you look at where we sit from a chain analysis perspective chain analysis in the good way of just reading the ledger to see what's happening it seems like things are are pretty good right now.
(08:49) Yeah, I I think it's you can see that we're in a bull market. Like it's not like back two years ago. Like there there for example, if you look at what the the the whales are doing, they are moving some coins. Um but on a net basis, we're not really like I think this year we haven't passed um any any times where there were more than 100,000 coins at a time that were moving.
(09:14) Um and and whereas in the past sometimes that number would go to like 400,000 coins that were just bam like moving on the chain. Um and uh and and I mean it's not exactly that, but it's the equivalent of 400,000 coins. Uh the the the metric I'm talking about is actually weighed by how long people are holding on to the coins.
(09:35) So they'll if you have one coin that's held for a thousand days, that'll have more of an impact on the chart than if you have 100 coins that were only held for 10 days um no uh only held for like 3 days, you know, then then those would be lighter lighter weight in in the chart. So yeah, that whale activity I always try to look at cuz I think whales are usually the smartest.
(09:55) Um they know what's up. they they know when sentiment is just overheated and then they start, you know, u reshuffling their coins and stuff. But yeah, I mean, we had 80,000 coins that were sold in a very short notice and it only moved the price 4%. Um I think that was a nice stress test just to see where we're at.
(10:15) Um and then another thing I looked at in the report is um is these draw downs. Um just the price draw down compared to the all-time high. Um and so um in previous bull markets that was a lot more aggressive those draw downs. Yeah, that's the one H. Um so uh so the fact that the draw downs are lighter like just not as deep the corrections of maybe 20 30%.
(10:40) Uh to me that's showing that there's just very strong buying activity like people are are gobbling up uh the coins as soon as they they they they look a little cheaper. Um and so to me that means there's probably going to be a longer cycle.
(10:59) That's why I'm so bullish in the report saying like, hey, we could tack on another entire year or even a year and a half to this uh to this bull market. I think that's a big question on everybody's mind like is this different? Cuz I think the first 13 14 years of Bitcoin, let's just say 2009 to 2022. So 13 years, it was a pretty predictable four-year cycle. You'd go up, parabolic blowoff top, retail would rush in. Yeah.
(11:32) Yeah. Everybody would sell over the course of 18 months, you fall, you'd have a capitulation dump, then you'd begin to consolidate at lows and some period after that, 3 to 6 months later, begin to climb up, rinse and repeat. But it definitely does seem different this time. I know those are famous last words for for many people throughout history. However, having been observing this for 12 years myself, it's just undeniable in my mind. It's objectively different in many many different regards.
(11:58) Like you mentioned, ETFs, treasury companies, nation states, maturation of of the industry. It's certainly different. Yeah. And it would just logically make sense that as an asset class matures, it should get less volatile over time and we should have longer cycles. uh like a real estate cycles are famously multi-deade cycles. Um and so yeah, I don't I don't understand why Bitcoin would have to somehow magically keep adhering to fouryear cycles if if none of the other asset classes have the same features. Um especially given that the the effect of the having is is becoming
(12:34) almost ne negligible, you know, with with very little difference in actual supply every every four years. now. Yeah. And that's actually brings up a good point which earlier before we hit record I said was the jumping off point but I think a little pre-con conversation and then uh touching on a conversation you had with uh a hedge fun investor Mark Hart um recently in which he sort of provided what was it six principles of what makes a an invest an asset like really investable and and appealing. Yeah. So, um I thought it was really refreshing to hear kind of again
(13:13) like a a fundamental thesis as to, you know, why would someone be interested in Bitcoin in the first place, but also just like a universal framework. Um and um so he he just he talked me through it, basically his thinking back in I think it was late 2016 or early 2017 when he was thinking through this.
(13:35) Um and so he he told me that, you know, he just went through his own list of of these features. um of what what gives value to an asset or an asset class fundamentally. And so he said first access like people have to be able to access the the the investment. Second they have to be made aware that it exists. Um also thirdly they have to have a sense that it gives them a a feeling of security in some way.
(14:02) It kind of makes them feel like they're hedged correctly or that it kind of covers some risks for them. Um even even and that famously of course Bitcoin like adding just a little bit of Bitcoin all of a sudden changes the the the behavior of your entire portfolio in a good way.
(14:20) Um and then he also said four like obviously return on investment like is it is it yielding? Is it is the past performance anything to to speak of? And then fifth is interesting. He said um patina. He calls it patina, which is like I guess you could call it the vibe or I I could call it the vibe or the the you know whether it it it makes you feel good to own it or not.
(14:44) So for example like something that has negative patina for the past decade or so is is like uh you know coal miners like you know and it's so they're famously valued at a lower multiple compared to other assets other other industries cuz it it's just very kind of you know it's poll you you feel like you're investing in polluting things and and that uh and so and so but also there's the other sides certain assets just have a very positive patina and uh and so it's I think in Bitcoin has made an interesting trajectory in that sense where I've been saying this
(15:16) like in in the you know two years ago in the report I was like hey you know this cycle Bitcoin is going to have the reputation of being a conservative asset that protects you against all kinds of risk and uh and so it's going to get that more positive patina.
(15:36) But then the last one I thought was so interesting what he mentioned and he already thought about that back in 201617 is the ability to use the asset as collateral. So if you have a high ability to be able to use it as collateral that's going to give a lot of wind in the sales for future value appreciation. Um and so that was not the case for Bitcoin for a very long time. Like no bank would ever touch it. Uh you couldn't get loans against it.
(16:01) And then gradually, I think back in 2017, maybe you could start to borrow a little bit against it, that started to to to happen. Uh, but now, of course, with the the Bitcoin strategy companies, we're seeing that kind of on steroids. So, all of a sudden, these publicly traded companies are very successfully using Bitcoin as collateral to to uh to grow and grow and grow.
(16:25) And so you know if you if you compare you know think about the real estate market like why is real estate grown into literally more than 50% of the value of all financial assets in the world is just real estate um I don't even know not even financial assets like you know just assets that people own half of it is real estate and the only reason that was able to happen is is that um you get the best loans uh by giving your your house as collateral and then you can borrow you know mortgages are just the best loans in the world almost. So yeah, so I thought that framework is just super interesting to kind of, you know, maybe reassess
(17:01) Bitcoin and being like, okay, what's what's been changing uh for those six factors. So freaks, this rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey. Bit Key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose. It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a 203 multic.
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(18:28) We don't collect any data. All of the conversions happen in your browser on your local device. It's a great way to recalibrate your life and begin thinking in SATS. Go check it out at opportunitycost.app. That's opportunitycost.app. To really extend on the the thoughts you have on the sixth principle there with collateral.
(18:54) I've I've been saying this for years and it's something that we're pretty convicted behind at 10:31 and have deployed capital into over the last few years is that I think this is the cycle where Bitcoin as pristine collateral really sees its day. You mentioned the treasury companies. They're obviously really leaning into it.
(19:14) Um, you've got companies in private credit markets that are they're beginning to underwrite loans using Bitcoin as part of the collateral package. Obviously, Unchain, Strike, Lein, Dabify, Hottle Hutddle, they've been around, but I think they're products are becoming more popular. People are more aware of them.
(19:34) And then I think what many people are sleeping on and I think it's yet to be determined how big of a theme it becomes this cycle, but I think ultimately in the long run it's definitely going to happen. But with the abolition of SAB 121 and the introduction of SAB 122 which enables uh banks, regulated banks to custody uh Bitcoin uh that the banks may now be able to offer uh lending services. Yes.
(20:04) To to their clients using Bitcoin as collateral. And there's been a bunch that have made announcements that they're working to enable these products for for their customers. Um, nothing's been launched yet, but famously Spare Bank in Russia, right? They're issuing are about to issue Bitcoin bonds. Yes. And what are what are the terms of those bonds, too? I I don't know that. I only know that Spare Bank is a big deal.
(20:28) It's like the biggest bank in Russia. Yeah. Or the third biggest bank. I'm not sure. It's definitely top three. Yeah. Yeah. But again, going back to what we said before listing Mark's six principles, like it definitely does feel like just the gravity and the tailwind the gravity around the tailwinds behind Bitcoin have never been like this. Yeah.
(20:55) And cuz we were talking about the decoupling of Bitcoin and and and you know, altcoins or crypto or shitcoins, whatever you call them, like I think that's really that's been happening the last 6 months for sure, the last year probably. Um, of course now we have Ethereum ETFs, but I I still feel that there's something fundamental that that changed here where all of a sudden we see a lot of government officials that are saying the word Bitcoin.
(21:20) We uh we have famously um uh um um um I was going to say Martin Armstrong. No, uh the Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong. Brian Armstrong who's using the word Bitcoin again after years of not using it. the best money we've ever discovered in his mind. Very interesting. Right. Right.
(21:45) So, so all of a sudden we we see a clarity in people's thinking and I think that's that's that's what's helping to give it this positive patina like you it's being disassociated from all this murky cowboy like scammy uh you know behavior from from the crypto uh crypto world the the the very centralized stuff. But Ethereum, it's going to run the the global markets. Tom Tom Lee told me this and it's like the biggest macro play of the next 10 to 15 years. Oh, I I like Tom Lee.
(22:12) Yeah, but but time will tell. Time will tell. It really will. But so this is like what we're describing right now is what's happening indogenously within the Bitcoin ecosystem and the people trying to interact with it. But there's like ex exogenous factors as well in terms of what's happening in global macro. I think you bet the like you mentioned earlier inflation still high real inflation 10 15%.
(22:37) I would not be surprised that that's actually lower than actual real inflation particularly for core the core basket of goods that people depend on. Well Parker Lewis did the the test with steak right I think he came up with uh 12% annualized inflation just based on if you're if you're a steak eater. Yeah.
(23:03) And there was, I'm sure you saw, but there was a a woman who posted on Facebook, and the screenshot was being shared on on Twitter last week and the week before, but she bought 30 items from Walmart online in uh 2020 three, I believe, and she went back and bought the same 30 items, and the price went from $70 to uh I believe like $196. So, you had like 168% inflation or something if I'm recalling correctly the numbers.
(23:30) And um I think that's one thing that's become very clear. You can't trust BLS. Yeah. And of course you can be like, "Yeah, but it's the tariffs or is this or is that but but but you have to take those things into account as well." Like it's like you know tariffs is a symptom of a deglobalizing world and in a del globalized world prices going to be higher meaning you know everyday consumers they don't really care where the price increases come from. It's just a reality and and it's a structural reality. Yeah it really is.
(24:02) And then on top of that like obviously we have Trump and Pal sort of in this very public boxing match. I wouldn't even call it a boxing match. It's really one-sided. It's like pal doesn't really uh respond to Trump's barbs, but it seems pretty clear that Trump is not happy with where interest rates are.
(24:21) Uh wants them lower, assuming that that's going to create an economic boom. But I think one thing's clear if you look at the deficit, you look at the fiscal side of things, the the theme of fiscal dominance that Lyn Alden's really been beating the drum about, Luke Roman's been beating the drum about for years is is manifesting.
(24:41) And uh it seems like the money printing is is not only not going away. It's probably likely to increase from here. Yeah, it's the only way to to save the furniture in in the short term. Uh I looked at the numbers and yeah, US deficits are over 6% now. Deficits in Europe are over 3 and a half% I believe. And so those are numbers higher than the Great Depression, you know. So that that's saying something.
(25:06) That's really saying something. Yeah. And I think one thing that you've done throughout the years and you've been very consistent about this, uh, which I really appreciate, is you've really anchored to basically denominating Bitcoin in non-dollar terms, whether that's NASDAQ, commodities, gold specifically, and you've been posting the charts for years, but like your your recent analysis of where Bitcoin is trading versus these different goods or basket of goods, it seems like if if I'm a TA expert, It looks like it's brushing up
(25:40) against previous all-time highs and getting ready to make a breakout. Yeah, especially uh gold is so interesting, right? Bitcoin Express and gold. Uh you know, you would think like, oh, we should be at new all-time highs, but actually we've barely broken out. Uh Bitcoin has been trading uh at par. Um yeah, there it is.
(26:05) Um so, Bitcoin has been trading at 1 kilo of gold for the last four or five years. Um and so uh so that's that's this is such a this is one of the most interesting charts I think in the world you know um just just that psychological I remember the the 1 ounce you know when Bitcoin was trading at 1 oz of gold uh in 2014 and then it took like 3 years to break above that um that was a big deal like people thought psychologically like no one bitcoin can't be more than an ounce and then interestingly we had the 100 g resistance then 1 kilo and and then well what's next well you would think 10
(26:42) kilos actually 11 kilos will be gold par so so I mean of course we don't know exactly how much above ground gold exists but but based on the best estimates around 11 kilos is is gold par so I think that's the obvious psychological barrier that people are like no bitcoin couldn't be worth more than all the gold in the world um and of course you and I think well of course can and so I think that's why and that's what I've suggested in my presentation about you know the macro outlook I think that's the next magnet and actually the
(27:14) term magnet I got from um David Bailey you know from from uh Betscy media we we uh we had a dinner uh in in Puerto Rico uh what was it two years ago or something and he was like he just brought that up I was like hey I think gold parody could be the next magnet and I just thought it just always stuck in my head it's such a brilliant way of thinking about it that it's like it doesn't mean it's going to you know it's going to touch the magnet and stick there but at least it'll be the the psychological pull uh for this cycle and uh I think I think that's to and you
(27:49) know Samsung now talks about $1 million as a magnet those are actually in the same range you know as at least right now if gold does a big rally then it'll be higher um but uh but it's so interesting that those those levels they're both psychological milestones. They're actually quite close uh if you think about them. Yeah.
(28:13) Well, let's dig into that, too, cuz I feel like gold's moving in a way very aggressively, particularly in the last year that it hasn't since Bitcoin launched, maybe outside of one or two years maybe or two like blips of an event, but it's very it seems like the world particularly post 2022 seizing of Russia's treasury assets by the US government and our allies has really forced international players specifically to think about diversifying away from US Treasury bonds.
(28:44) And gold's on a run. It doesn't look like it's slowing down anytime soon from what I can tell. And I wonder if it's and I don't mean not like no disrespect cuz people often use like boomers with like a kind of disdain or something, but I wonder if it's it's being rediscovered as a by boomers as a safe haven asset.
(29:02) Uh I actually pretty recently I was in a in an Uber and uh all of a sudden this this older gentleman who was the driver he was like hey what do you think of this? You know what do you think of this thesis that um you know we have uh military age Chinese men by the thousands you know roaming around in the US.
(29:29) What if at some point they they they are activated by the CCP and they start um um um um sabotaging uh electricity plants to to create a blackout across the US. And and then his next the next part of his what do you think was you know what do you think of gold as an investment to to hedge against that and I was like wow you know like regardless of you know whether or not that you know scenario is realistic you know that that's new I 5 years ago I I would have none of my Uber drivers would have ever you know come up with a scenario like that plus the gold answer so you know it's it's of course just one
(30:07) data point but I do I do feel that, you know, the the boomers that already have gold, they feel very much validated. And so maybe why not sell if you have three houses, whatever, or a few condos, why not sell one of them and buy more gold? Um especially cuz you know, maybe your kids, it's pretty clear by now that they won't find work in that area where you happen to have a house, so it it's going to have to go anyway. Yeah, it's fascinating.
(30:36) I wonder like if gold keeps drifting higher does that perturb what seems to be like a long-standing trend in the Bitcoin to gold ratio or does that sort of or is Bitcoin to your to David sees David's term just still stay true to that magnet of like the next order of magnitude I think so it's just you know it's only it's only two trillion you know it's it's it's because Bitcoin has the ability to be so much more than gold is today you like you said, the pristine collateral, you can move it around the world. It's provably scarce, it's
(31:09) decentralized, it's highly auditable, like all you know, you can you can issue assets on on the Bitcoin chain. Like there's just so much so much going for it that uh to me it has to gain more market share against uh analog Bitcoin, which I think is gold. Over 10,000 investors downloaded the original how to position for the Bitcoin boom when Bitcoin was just 27K and it called for 120K plus. That target's now hit.
(31:39) So, what's next? Tur demester is back with the 2025 edition, refreshed for the midcycle moment, packed with new data, new insights, and TUR's latest price outlook. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to charting our way through chaos. Tur's new 30inut Q3 2025 presentation explaining why this bull run might be only just beginning and what forces could push it to the next level.
(31:57) Read the first ever midcycle report from Adamant Research at unchained.com/tc. That's unchained.comTTFTC. And also, if you're using Unchained, you can use the code TFTC for $50 off any of their services. Go check it out. No, and to that point, too, bringing it back to collateral, I'm very interested to get your thoughts on this because that's one thing, whether it's a treasury companies, like I think it's pretty clear uh I would be shocked if Micro Strategy um sells Bitcoin anytime soon.
(32:31) But in the private market, uh, in the private credit markets, like with these new sort of collateral packages and structured credit that include Bitcoin for commercial real estate and other types of longer duration loans, like if you see that trend take off and they're successfully able to pull a material amount of Bitcoin off the market, put it in these longer duration structured credit products like I've been talking to Andrew Hones about this for the better part of a year, more than a year, uh you begin to see like a forward-looking duration curve of an amount of Bitcoin
(33:07) that you know is going to be off the market for x amount of years. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz if you're issuing if you're issuing securities against the Bitcoin collateral, then well, you have to keep the collateral in place to be able to honor those uh you know those promises.
(33:24) That that's a good point and it's true, right? We had announcements of uh uh what is it the the Jack Mers Howard Lutnik um Blockstream as well like you know there's like significant amount of Bitcoin that we knew of course that that Bitcoin was around before but all of a sudden it makes sense for these Bitcoin whales to be like all right let's let's pull some of this Bitcoin and uh and and put it to work like we've seen Michael Sailor do. Yeah.
(33:50) And it's actually fascinating too because I've been digging more into this and so I was actually talking to my brother about this earlier this week. We we went golfing. He works at Unchained so he's like following the space very closely. He's like why isn't the price going up with all these treasury companies are buying so much and um we had the conversation about to your point like a lot of these whales been sitting on large amounts of Bitcoin for many years many over a decade now at this point. And these treasury companies not only are the way to put Bitcoin to work. Obviously, there's risk involved with
(34:22) that, but they also provide like a tax benefit from what I understand. Like it it increases their cost bases to where Bitcoin is today in the tax preferable way. Wait, explain that. Like if you put your Bitcoin inkind into one of these SPVS or pipes, whatever it may be to help the treasury company develop, it's Bitcoin treasury. I from what I understand there's tax benefits.
(34:48) You don't get tax and your cost basis gets bumped up to where it is. Oh, so um Oh, I guess I would have to look at but I I believe you. I I can see that. Yeah. Um and then maybe you could withdraw in kind as well again cuz then that would be not a taxable event if eventually you could withdraw. Yeah. I'm not sure.
(35:06) It's kind of like you're you're putting this is not a great way to put it, but or at least not a perfect analogy, but like imagine if there's a casino in Vegas and they just the house needs more collateral to be able to honor all the all the all the the bets that are being paid out. If you add to that pool, uh, and then you you you get some income from whatever revenue they generate based on that.
(35:32) But then later if you the you could withdraw your collateral again and uh you've never sold it. So that's not a taxable event. Yeah, it's really fascinating. It'll be it'll be fun to see what like just broadly before we get on to the next like Bitcoin Express and commodities chart. Broadly speaking, how do you see the treasuries company theme playing out? Uh, I've been saying publicly like to me it seems like a game where economies of scale are necessary to win if you're viewing these treasury companies as competitive with each other. So I'm under the belief that there's going to be like a paro distribution of companies that are able
(36:08) to deploy the strategy, execute, and really stand out from the rest and uh basically soak up all the capital that is interested in this type of strategy. Yeah, I that does make sense to me. I think there is probably some maybe some unique risk to the the very large ones uh just geopolitically, you know, if if if we get a hot war between like major nations and all of a sudden uh somebody needs a lot of money to to finance things in the short term, then you could, you know, you could you could nationalize one of these big
(36:44) companies. I don't think they would liquidate all the Bitcoin. they would probably nationalize it and then say you know we're going to now issue issue issue our national Bitcoin bonds that are backed by this collateral and you know we're doing it protected to protect shareholders and like in Belgium for example the the the central bank of Belgium used to be entirely private and then the government came in and started owning 40% 50% 60% so even today you can own shares in the Belgian National Bank but of course uh you can never withdraw
(37:15) the gold like that that's there's is there's this goes back decades where there's shareholder meetings and the private shareholders clamoring like ah we want our gold and it's this stock is is criminally undervalued and uh so you know I I I could imagine a similar scenario uh with with the spark being some kind of crisis like either a fiscal huge fiscal crisis very high inflation devaluation of the dollar something or a military conflict that all of a sudden it's like hey you know it's uh times are tough everybody needs to put in the put in, you know, do what they can and so
(37:51) we're going to issue an order, but but still, you know, I think that's not happening right now. Uh, and it could be a few years away. Um, so yeah, I if you kind of bracket that as a risk, I do I do agree with you that the large companies probably they're going to have the best relationships with these Wall Street banks who then have the deepest liquidity when it comes to the bond market, etc. Um, yeah, that that makes sense.
(38:16) my uh in the short term it seems that was so interesting. It was actually also Mark Hart who tweeted about that that um it seems like in the last weeks like four weeks or something uh JP Morgan in particular has cranked up um margin margin requirements for uh strategy stock in particular.
(38:37) So, if you want to borrow against your strategy stock, say you got a million or 10 million uh sitting in your brokerage account and you want to borrow against that, you used to be able to borrow, I think, um $40 for every $100 worth of Micro Strategy stock. Well, now you can only borrow five bucks for every $100. Yeah.
(39:01) So that means that basically from being, you know, being able to borrow with two and a half two and a halfx over collateralization, now all of a sudden you have to put up 20x over collateralization uh for what you're going to borrow. And so it's weird because that would somehow imply that the you know the micro strategy is is something changed fundamentally. They're a lot weaker, but that doesn't make sense.
(39:24) So the question is like are we seeing some kind of concerted effort to try and dampen uh activity in these um Bitcoin strategy companies from from Wall Street? That that remains to be seen, but it seems like that is an underappreciated factor as to why these stocks are lagging currently compared to the Bitcoin price.
(39:43) I was not aware of that. 40% LTV to 5% is drastic. Yeah, super drastic. Uh but then somebody tweeted that my Fidelity has the same uh has kept their rates the same. Uh but then other people were confirming definitely about JP Morgan that they just mysteriously cranked it up massively the requirement and because there are people typically taking out these loans before the change getting $40 per $100 they put up and then going and buying more micro strategy sockets sometimes. Yeah. Right. Sometimes, yeah,
(40:21) if you're bullish, you know, why not be bullish 130%, especially if you're thinking about hedge funds and, you know, and then they may be hedged in other ways and you know, they might have some downside protection, but but if your ability to go to be bullish is curbed, then of course the price is going to reflect that.
(40:42) Like also because like like the six points earlier like if if you can if one share in Micro Strategy all of a sudden is less potent as a collateral in itself well then that's going to hurt the value. Yeah, that's fascinating. I wonder why JP Morgan I was completely unaware of that. Um but moving back to the report and Bitcoin being priced in different things.
(41:12) This is interesting cuz gold it seems like we're brushing up against this previous all-time high. Say it one kilo. I love when Americans have to use the the metric system. 1 kilogram. Is that what Yeah, whatever. People have said kg. I hear that sometimes in the US. 1 kg. One kg. 1 kilo brushing up against that. But if you look at Bitcoin expressed in just a broader basket of commodities, it's already broken out a little bit well over alltime highs.
(41:34) looking at Bitcoin to the US dollar, Reuters, Jeff CRB index. What's What's in this basket? Yeah. So, that one I'm trying to make sure I get it right. I think it's like 20% metals, maybe 40% oil, and then 40% agricultural commodities. Like, it's it's pretty kind of intuitive.
(41:58) Uh, and the cool thing is they haven't changed it in 60 70 years. So, it's just the same index. I think they base it on futures prices. So yeah, I mean to me that's that's kind of you know if you want to if we want to see if something is resistant to inflation, you want to see it go up expressed in these commodities.
(42:19) Uh and of course Bitcoin has done that and and so yeah recently we've broken especially in the last 6 months we've broken north of um of the highs of that resistance. So again, it's, you know, if you're bearish on Bitcoin, well, because of the dollar, you know, a chart that's expressed in dollars, which we know is facing accelerating dilution and inflation, it's a very poor me, you know, way to look at the markets.
(42:45) Um, but but you know, expressed in gold and commodities, all of a sudden we're seeing Bitcoin break out. It's to me that's very hard to stay bearish then you know like all of a sudden we have to assume it just broke out but it's somehow the end of a bull market it just doesn't make sense. Yeah. So do you think people are when you say people are bearish like how for those that are bearish right now and think that we've seen the the sort of cycle top or we're near it how how surprised or shocked do you think they'll be? Um yeah, I mean I I think different people I mean of
(43:22) course you know people who are in Bitcoin there's people who just long Bitcoin and and they might still be like oh you know it's going to top out at 200,000 or something. Yeah, we might run a little more but then it'll top out. Maybe a lot of those people are afraid of just a general stock market crash, you know, like oh it feels like there's dark clouds on the horizon and so traditional interpretation is that oh it means a stock market crash.
(43:50) means a repeat of 2008 and then we get a huge um you know crash in Bitcoin as well because it's you know it's the most liquid asset in the world. It's the easiest to sell much easier than a house or something else. So it might be the first thing that you sell. Um and then there's the no coiners. You know I think they are they're they're going to hurt.
(44:10) You know it's going to be very painful for them to see it go to 150 200,000 and then then you start feeling FOMO. Um and and so the thing is also that back in 2020 2021 all the the crypto stuff that all was dilutive to Bitcoin like it would the money that went to crypto was taken away value from Bitcoin whereas if you look at the market now we have Bitcoin but if you have more risk appetite you can still stay in Bitcoin you go to the treasury companies and then imagine if it it turns into a mania and we got new treasury companies launching And then even imagine some of those treasury companies buying stock in other treasury companies and putting it on
(44:48) their own B like you know that's all I'm not saying that's healthy but I do think it would it would push up the value of Bitcoin. It would just kind of create this mania that that that stays roughly speaking in the same universe the Bitcoin universe.
(45:09) Um so that I think it's very easy to imagine another 4x from here or even a 10x from here if if that kind of mania happens. Yeah, this is something I've been trying to wrap my head around because again, going back to if we crash, you guys can clip it, you can make fun of me, but like going back to this time is different. Like the the different archetypes of demand drivers that are out there. not only like the amount of capital that they have behind them, but just the the the plurality of them, the the just like from a numbers perspective um is unlike anything that's ever existed up to this point. Yeah. And the same for me like, you know, I'm I'm very happy to be, you
(45:47) know, featured as like, you know, this delusional guy. He put out a bullish report just before we crashed 75%. I feel like I can't lose because if if you know the report turns out to be true then it's nice, you know, it's kind that's kind of what I'm planning for and that's great.
(46:07) But if uh if we do get a big crash, I I just I'm going to have another lesson in humility and those are the best ones. It hurts, but uh but it it shows that you you can't um you know, you really can't know the future for sure. like all you can do is kind of uh you know share your your best thoughts and um and and accept that you'll never know better than the rest of the world.
(46:27) Like it's the the price is going to be the price. Um but uh but then again, you know, might as well, you know, it's it's it's something I'm thinking about privately anyway. You're thinking about it privately anyway, so why not just talk about it and share our thoughts? Yeah.
(46:45) Speaking of something I'm thinking about, I mean, you mentioned it. Bitcoin is the most liquid asset. If you have like an equities downturn, maybe it'll be the first to go because it's the most liquid, easiest to sell. But do you envision a scenario where Bitcoin is seen as this like real flight to safety if there's trouble in the equity markets? Well, yeah, because I mean, especially if they paper everything over, you know, because because to me the context is back in 2008, um, we had a big crash and then there was complete disbelief when the
(47:21) numbers started coming out. We had these, um, I think it was Timothy Gener at the time who was like talking about bailouts and we're going to rescue these things and it's going to be like 500 billion, these enormous numbers. And people were like shocked like you what you're going to bail out these banks like Fanny May, Freddy Mack, and then the big banks.
(47:46) Uh and then of course we had a few bankruptcies but but you know Lehman and and a few others but they were just very limited. Um so that was like that was one phase. Then we had 2020 where it was assumed the question was just how much are we going to bail them out like you know how much are we going to print? Is it going to be a trillion? Is it going to be 4 trillion? Like what's the deal here? Um, and so, and so now if we have another crash, I think we have to keep in mind that everybody is assuming bailouts even more, even sooner, even more aggressive, maybe even stimulus to prevent the, you
(48:23) know, the crisis from happening in the first place, which is what Trump seems to be steering towards with wanting like a dovish Fed, etc. Um, you know, with the big beautiful bill, that's another 400 billion in in spending. So um and of course with all the interest payments that are just you know going crazy in the UK and Japan and the US uh you know the the the budget required to pay the interest on the debt is so massive that you kind of need a permanent stimulus anyway to to stay afloat. So anyway like to me it's like if we're
(48:56) going to see a crash I I just I don't see it to I don't see it to go as I do think expressed in commodities. Yes, of course that's what's happening is that it's already happening. Like Apple's stock is completely flatlining against commodities for the past 4 years. So stagnation is here. Stagflation like that's the big word, right? Stagflation. That that's the decade that we're in.
(49:21) Um like sluggish economy combined with inflation. Um so so that's why like you know don't don't obsess about dollar denominated charts. So if we get a crash then to me commodities are going to come down as well. And so then if you look at Bitcoin expressed in commodities it might not be an 80% crash.
(49:49) It might be like a something that looks more like a correction more like a 30% maybe 40% um you know kind of correction and then the structural bull market could could still resume even if that happens like the ne next month or so. Yeah. I mean and on this note Logan pull up the uh real estate expressed in commodities. I think this really visually articulates what you're describing here.
(50:05) And you have some notes here. We're seeing diminishing returns to Fed stimulus, which beefs up private banks ability to issue low interest mortgages. Once we get to a point where commodity prices consistently outpace real estate, a trend reversal, builders and landlords will very likely start facing negative cash flows. So, this is another thing.
(50:25) This chart I had to look at it for a while to really and then like think about what's happening real estate, happening in commodities, too. um to sort of understand what's happening here. But since 2016, the net result of Fed stimulus on housing is now flat. So this is like a stagflation story, which is crazy because real estate prices seem to be going insane. Yeah. It's like a dead horse.
(50:51) Like there, you know, you you can pump you can pump adrenaline into it all you want, but it's dead. And and because the problem is with real estate is that part of your input the the commodities are part of your input costs like you need commodities to build houses and so if those prices sore and at the same time interest rates are higher um so that means people can't easily renew their mortgages and uh the high interest rates affect uh insurance costs right all of a sudden the the the price for home insurance is soaring and then the the cost to just repair your home if you need a new roof or something. Again,
(51:28) you're facing these high commodity prices. So, from an investment point of view, all of a sudden, corrected for inflation, you're actually losing money and that feeds on itself. That's why I I totally expect this this graph to just go down. Like, we're going to see it slide over the next 10 15 years.
(51:47) Uh especially cuz baby boomers, you know, I think they own 10 million homes in the US or something like some huge amount. Um I think it's even more. And so baby boomers next year will be aged 62 to 80 years old. And so a lot of them I believe are going to be selling homes. Um you know of and that's of course we can extrapolate for the rest of the world I think.
(52:15) But um but yeah, so so I think that it's important to look at these general asset classes where where investments have been traditionally parked and the more those are impaired, the bull the more bullish the case for Bitcoin becomes. Yeah, man. Well, I guess uh I don't know if this throws a wrench in that argument, but I I think it does highlight sort of the very weird period of time that we find ourselves.
(52:44) And I'm not sure if you saw this stat yesterday um from Fortune, but they reported that there are now more home buyers over the age of 70 than under the age of 35. That's just so sad, isn't it? Oh my god. And and and like it's not like the the 75year-old is like, "Oh, it's a starter home." It's like, "No, this is clearly an investment asset or something like that." You know, that's just how they're program.
(53:08) I remember my granddad telling me like you know uh I think he was he was a little bit atypical but still he said bonds, gold and real estate that was how he built his wealth over the over over the decades and and and it's fantastic formula as long as it works but I I think especially the real estate and the bond part of that that's no longer that's a different world now.
(53:26) Yeah. No. And I wonder if this sort of pricing out of millennials from the housing market could also be a tailwind for Bitcoin. It's like, all right, I can't go buy a $500,000 million house. Don't have the down payment, but I do have enough to buy $5,000 worth of Bitcoin this month or to put $10,000 in.
(53:47) Well, yeah. And also, if you just simply compare the the rent that you pay with the mortgage payment that you would face if you would buy the same home, if if that's out of whack and and it's much cheaper to rent, then if you have a little inheritance from your parents or something, well, why not rent and own Bitcoin instead of putting it all in the same deteriorating asset that that's a house? Yeah, it's fascinating. That's uh I forget who it was.
(54:20) Uh I was talking to somebody at the uh down in Georgia at the Proto event. I forget exactly who it was or maybe it was a tweet. I think it was a tweet somebody sent, but it was like even though we're doing a podcast here, you have your podcast, we have this podcast.
(54:37) We've been educating people about Bitcoin via your reports for the better part of it for more than a decade. I've been doing the show for eight years. But uh I forget who sent the tweet, but it was essentially like, "Hey, these podcasts are obviously going to convince some people and help them educate themselves about Bitcoin, but like in terms of like creating Bitcoiners and being like a a sort of Bitcoin conversion mechanism, the biggest conversion mechanism is going to be like not being able to buy a house or having your bank account withdrawn by $1 and you get charged 35 or your country shutting down your access to um the money in your bank
(55:15) account uh and limiting the amount that you can withdraw like and it seems like a lot of these themes are happening both here in the west and in other parts of the world and LAM I was saying before um we hit record Bolivia I haven't told you what's happening there yet but I think this is a really interesting indicator that Bitcoin is working as it was designed and people are recognizing izing that it is an alternative to these oppressive uh financial systems that operate under oppressive regimes. So in Bolivia where
(55:48) annual inflation has reached this is like a triple whammy annual inflation has reached 25% and banks have been limiting withdrawal withdrawals of US dollars to $100 a week. Bloomberg reports that Bolivians are turning to Bitcoin and digital assets as alternatives to the Boliviano. Um I'll just read the whole thing. This is from the Human Rights Foundation Financial Freedom Report, by the way. Uh, I'm not the only one using Bitcoin.
(56:11) Christopher Salis, a coffee vendor in La Paz, said, "There's a barber shop over there and a gym that also accepts Satoshi's. For Salis, Bitcoin is both a hedge and a protest, a way to preserve the value of my savings, but also a way to go against the system against bureaucracy.
(56:29) " Bolivia's hybrid authoritarian regime lifted a decade long ban on digital assets in 2024. Good to see. Since then, the volume of digital asset payments has grown more than fivefold to nearly 300 million in the first half of 2025. Wow. The the University of San Andreas allegedly pays its international faculty in Bitcoin.
(56:51) Carlos Nara, co-founder of Colombian wallet provider Muru, I read this I read the stat yesterday on Rabbit Hole Recap, but it blew my mind. Reports a staggering 6,600% increase in Bolivian users since the ban was lifted. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's it's it's the the complete package there. Um and and and um one one example that came to mind as well and it's a link I haven't heard a lot of people make is um you know obviously Trump has been very pro Bitcoin the last couple years but he recently I think it was the last couple weeks he had this uh executive order I think or a I think it
(57:29) was an executive order about basically curbing banks abilities to debank people in the US and he he was very adamant that to give the example that he had been attacked and he had been debanked and he had lost bank accounts all over the US and he had to like you know move money around and all that and I think those two are very closely linked people people um you know just think about somebody's personal experience like you you know you think you think you your wealth is X and you've and all of a sudden you lose your access to your own wealth like that goes very deep I I think for uh to inform somebody's
(58:09) position on how they think about banking and and just you know money in general. Yeah, I definitely think more people are beginning to question like what is a bank supposed to do? What is money? Did you did you see Richard Werner on Tucker Carlson? Did you watch that interview at all? Oh, that was great. Yes.
(58:27) The the guy who who who broke the story about what's happening in Japan back in the 80s. Yeah, that was that was if you're looking for like a a oneshot like understand how the banking system works, how the academic economists at the Fed and in uh in finance are sort of misdefining how money is created and really not telling people the truth about how money is created and how money creation via credit creation is corrupting the system. You have to go watch it. I learned a lot. I got to say it doesn't I mean not to of course not it's just
(59:05) like if you know I'm sure it's the same for you like if if you've been looking at the history of banking and money and investing for 1015 years. It it's it's a it gets a little bit harder to be surprised by an interview and to learn a lot. But I was like wow a lot of stuff I did not know that he was talking about.
(59:23) Yeah. Same. And like I I I don't know what thoughts were running through your head at the whole time cuz I spoiler alert anybody's listening to this who hasn't listened to that yet. Basically, one of his thesis is that like the economy and the financial system goes off the rails the more the banking sector consolidates.
(59:47) So we've seen that here in the United States over the last four decades going from tens of thousands of banks to I believe 7,000 um if I recall correctly. Um, but you use the example of how China post Mao sort of broke out of that that sort of atrocity that happened when Mao was in charge and the I forget uh the name of of the Chinese dictator took over after Ma, but he went to Japan.
(1:00:14) He was like, "Hey, how'd you guys how do you how do you have a functioning economy?" And they said, "You need how many banks?" They asked him, "How many banks do you have?" He said, "We have one bank." He's like, "Well, you need you need more than one. You need a lot of banks and you need heavy competition in the banking sector particularly at different sort of for like different types of banks serving different size companies specifically like so small businesses medium businesses large corporations like you need banks to match um the these sort of balance sheets of of their clients in these subsectors and it's obvious here in the United States that
(1:00:45) the banking sector is consolidating it's accelerating particularly post 2008 but like while he was desribing ing this I was like bitcoin backed chomia mint banks like make a lot of sense like if you actually want to like create an environment where you make it easy for banks to pop out like why not leverage the open protocol that is Bitcoin uh and then some second layers are being built on top of it I'm leaning into chia mint specifically but who's to say there's not other sort of designs that could enable a flourishing of of new bank
(1:01:21) competition Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And um yeah, the other the other thing that surprised me about the interview was um just his focus on credit creation out of thin air specifically going towards asset purchases. So like uh and and his thesis is that actually some actors inside the US, US government probably or banking, central banking, they deliberately pushed Japan to be very generous for their banks to be very generous with creating credit uh real estate backed credit um you know mortgages because they knew it was going to create a giant bubble and then pop the economy. So, it was
(1:02:06) kind of a way to to blow it up, so to speak. And I hadn't considered, you know, that kind of um situation that actually, you know, it wasn't just na they were just naive and dumb, but that it was actually kind of uh pushed from the outside. And then if you think about, you know, what's happening in the west today, it was like, well, I'm not saying that it's outside actors that are trying to blow up the the economy, but it's still concerning that real estate bubble is so huge. And uh and it can take the economy a
(1:02:36) long time to recover from something like that once it blows up. It was fascinating. And we don't have to do a podcast about a podcast, but the uh like yeah it was like a slight of hand by US banks and the central bank and potentially the government saying hey maybe you guys should just like lean into this real estate cuz they were flourishing at the time in the presence of yen like Japan was from what I understand it wasn't alive but having listened to podcasts read books about it like in the 80s people thought Japan was going to be the number
(1:03:08) one superpower in the like all the electronics we were buying here in the US were from Japan. They were dominating industry and Richard Werner uh he uh he basically said the US like did not want that to happen. So they went and like gave intentionally bad advice to Japan to sort of slow that that progression down that dominance down.
(1:03:34) Well, I mean there is implication potentially for the Bitcoin, right? I mean, uh, just to kind of like kind of, you know, bring it back to Bitcoin is that if you I'm just thinking about this out loud for the moment, but but, um, you know, if if if dollar denominated banks are allowed to create credit out of thin air, um, that allows then the international public to acquire more Bitcoin and extract value out of the dollar system using Bitcoin.
(1:04:02) coin, you know, it could also undermine the whole structure, you know, that that whole setup. So, I think that's something to, you know, that's why I'm I'm a little hesitant to be long-term bullish on, oh, yeah, the US government is going to totally be supportive of Bitcoin all activities because there's clearly an element where Bitcoin can threaten the dollar uh big time.
(1:04:28) So, so yeah, it's just something to really monitor, I think. Bet I was told Bitcoin strengthens the dollar because stable coins exist. Yeah. Yeah. That's like there is What are your thoughts on that? Like there's like a very wrong direct conflation with Bitcoin and stable coins which is like they're somewhat tangentally related. But yeah. Yeah.
(1:04:53) I mean the assumption is I mean I guess the the the the the generous take is that everyone is going to copy the model of tether uh which is that you know you you back your stable coin with shortdated US dollars tre treasuries three three-month bonds and then 15% of your profits are going to go to bitcoin so in that sense there is a kind of a situation where especially if then somehow tether can start paying out dividends or something like that where the dollar is kind of shored up.
(1:05:25) But uh but that's those are a lot of assumptions that all that that model is going to be copied. Everything is going to stay that way. Uh nobody's going to just extract the Bitcoin at some point. Uh I mean the other option is that you build up a reserve, but it's kind of like how do you do that? You know, you have like a Bitcoin reserve that then is backing the dollar and then but then it has to be redeemable.
(1:05:50) So, how do you how do you honor those those redemptions? You know, we could have another de gole just like that who who just pulls out all the bitcoin as soon as they can. Yeah. Did you see safe's presentation in Vegas this year? I think I heard about it. I haven't seen it. Yeah, it was like it was pretty con it convinced me. Like I think here in the United States there's this administration and everybody advising them and everybody involved with stable coins more broadly is like convinced that like stable coins are going to save the US treasury market. We're going to drive incredible demand. There's going
(1:06:20) to be a ton of uh there's going to be a ton of adoption and it's going to go from 500 billion of treasury demand as it stands today to trillions and trillions of dollars of demand. And safe basically just made the point like hey if you even if you map this out and you look at the deficits and the interest on the debt like it's not going to make a material dent in demand for treasuries. It is.
(1:06:49) It feels a bit like a Hail Mary or like they're just trying. I mean, at least they're trying something. You know, that that's good. But um but yeah, I mean, the thing that I've always heard um you know, kind of grizzled investors and and and you know, real veteran economists say is that you know, the moment uh a country starts monetizing their debt, you know, the so the debt becomes money.
(1:07:19) Once that happens, that's that's the next huge step towards hyperinflation and uh you know that because the Alinas for example in Fr in France uh which were issued just on the you know that's why the hyperinflation happened those were shortdated treasury bonds that were just used as money. And so if you think about a stable coin it's like well it's almost that right it's it's like they're just shy of sharing the dividend with with the owner of the of the stable coin.
(1:07:43) like that's that's maybe still missing. Yeah. No, and this gets into a good point to jump back to the revised report is like there is especially in Silicon Valley and Wall Street, it's like stable coins of the future. We're going to implement it in everything. We're going to integrate it in everything. We're going to crossber payments. Like you're going to have a stable coin wallet everywhere.
(1:08:01) It's going to be incredible. And I think it's just like missing the forest for the trees. And you're making the point in the piece of like Bitcoin becoming the TCP IP of money protocols that is extremely profound from a competitive perspective. Yeah. I mean Yeah. You you're How do you compete with Bitcoin? You know, it's just it's it's that's why we have what how many 200,000 cryptos that are with arrows in their back laying in the ditch that that have been tried over the past 10 years. Um how do you compete with Bitcoin? It's it's it's so elegant. It has that it has
(1:08:40) that momentum. Uh it has the biggest firewall in the whole world of any kind of digital network protecting it. Um, yeah. So, I mean, you can try and slow down, especially I think it's very it's very heartening to see that more and more companies and increasingly pension funds and that they're starting to buy Bitcoin cuz that that is kind of a shock absorber for the crash that's coming in bonds and real estate and and and you know the the the deterioration in in stock market valuations like that Bitcoin can kind of rescue some of that value so that uh pensioners aren't left with nothing or that insurance companies
(1:09:19) still have something to pay out uh debts. But um but yeah, I mean, let's just hope for a relatively smooth transition because I you know, it's people might accuse us of like, oh, we're talking our own book here, but but um but yeah, I mean, time will tell. Let's let's see how this clip does 10 years from now. It's like I I just think it's superior technology.
(1:09:43) So we have to take into account it winning just how if we were talking in the 1880s we would have been talking about crude oil and how it's just better than whale oil like it's sorry it's we just think it's better you say we think it's better like I think objectively it's better I mean you have Vijay's famous sort of Bitcoin gold fiat comparison chart that'll be timeless that'll be that'll be in textbooks centuries from now but it's like objectively all the properties are superior.
(1:10:14) Yeah. And the nice thing is that people don't have to take our word for it. Like you can kind of go through and do do your own research and do your own work and and like you know analyze the logic and uh and and try to find flaws and then make your own decision. Yeah.
(1:10:32) And when it comes to comparing Bitcoin like Ethereum, Salana, any name your shitcoin, hearkening back hearkening back to what I was saying happened in RIA last weekend with like Arc Payments in the wild. Nobody knew they were using ARC as BTC pay servers at the merchants. You were presented a Lightning invoice. Everybody thought they were paying to like a Lightning wallet, but Lightning was just a connective tissue.
(1:11:05) it was actually going to like an ARC wallet um with VTXOs's and like it's a it highlights the interoperable nature of Bitcoin and the layers being built on top of it and not only protocol to an individual layer above it whether it's the lightning network liquid arc draw me a immense but like then on those second layers there's multiple second layers between each other because of the lightning network. Yeah.
(1:11:25) And what we'll see the critics do is they'll now they have now they're just going to move the goalpost. It's like before they would say like oh you know lightning haha you guys were so bullish on it and and and and you know look at all the limitations and so now we're like well you know now we have another second layer protocol that's interoperable and that's massively extending um functionality and of course you know they'll probably move the goalpost and but that doesn't matter. The fact is Bitcoin is becoming more and more functional and effective in the
(1:11:56) real world as we've been expecting. Yeah. And it's so exciting to see and there's so many people sleeping on it and like and I I think it bears leaning into the credence with which Bitcoiners and particularly Bitcoin protocol engineers have approached building out the protocol particularly in comparison to altcoins that have that have arisen in its wake.
(1:12:27) It's like make sure that the base layer protocol is sufficiently distributed, open, accessible, simple, easy to interact with and then do all the complex stuff on top of that. And there was many there's been many 16 years now of of that very conservative, methodical, slow approach to protocol development that has enabled this flourishing of second layers.
(1:12:53) We didn't even mention Spark from Light Spark like that. I was in Georgia at this proto event. That was like one of the top the the two like second layer discussions were about Arc and Spark. And these are relatively new. I think both maintenance launched earlier this year.
(1:13:17) And we're already seeing people implementing them and others seeing what's being implemented and getting very excited. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, uh, what was I going to say? Second layers. Um, oh yeah, I was going to say there's also a self- selection effect when you think about the human capital in in this whole, you know, blockchain space, so to speak, is that basically if you want to leave a legacy and and and build something to be proud of, you want to be putting your shoulders behind Bitcoin as an engineer or something rather than these, I don't know, these like oneoff projects that that They're like fireworks. Like they're bright for for a year or two and then
(1:14:00) they just fade and everybody forgets about them. It's like do you really want to spend years of your life to that dedicated to those kind of things that just they're going to be buried and forgotten or do you want to do you want to contribute just a little bit to a project that's that has the potential to last for centuries? Yeah. Yeah.
(1:14:24) uh reminds me I was on a panel at uh I was the I was invited as the the Bitcoiner to this event that was uh thrown by a law firm and they they uh support a bunch of crypto projects and crypto funds in the space and they wanted a Bitcoin rationalist uh perspective. I won't say maximalist. I will not give uh Vitalic his flowers there. Uh and it was crazy.
(1:14:49) This is January 24, so last year. And there was to like we were I was on a panel with other V venture capitalists in the crypto world. And two out of the three really leaned into Pump. Fun. Like Pump. Fun is like one of the most innovative projects that's ever existed.
(1:15:12) like the ability for any individual to create any meme point is going to really enable the the uh sort of digital economy to flourish. And it was just like, wow, I'm I'm very proud of we'll go find there's it's up on YouTube somewhere, but I was like, you guys are number one insane. Number two, like what you're doing is immoral. Like we've seen this play out again.
(1:15:37) Do you not understand the dilution effect that occurs when you give the ability of anybody to hit a button and create a token? And how do you expect any of these things to sustain any material market cap for longer than we've seen it with beanie babies, right? Like Yeah. No, but to your point about like what mark do you want to leave? I was very disappointed in and that's that's been the and you touched on it earlier but I do think we are getting to this point where the broader market particularly the smart money um the serious money is looking at a lot of the serious money and not all of it but a lot of it is looking at Bitcoin being like oh this is serious project and looking at everything else
(1:16:13) like this what is this this is childish. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, and it's there's also some poetic justice, of course, like I mean, in terms of, you know, maybe and a lot of Bitcoiners have said this, like, you know, you start off and you get excited about these better than Bitcoin projects and and then you kind of uh, you know, you kind of uh you see some black snows, you know, you're like, oh. And then you get humbled and and uh and so then in a way it's an opportunity to to uh to course correct
(1:16:45) and and and talk to some other people. Yeah. Well, I think our advice here is like focus on Bitcoin. Uh yeah, that's that's what I believe. But, you know, at the same time, you got to at least that's what I try to do is like the the the hardest thing is to know whether you have survivors bias, right? Whether you're just so uh full of yourself because you you just lucky betting on the right horse for 10 years in a row. Uh but then uh you know, you never know. May it's still man-made. Like we're talking about man-made
(1:17:13) technology. So, at least theoretically, something better could come around or there could be some some blind spots that we share about a vulnerability in Bitcoin. So, I think that's why we keep having these conversations just to kind of double check and and have each other's back about um you know, is is this still the thing we thought it was? I think it is.
(1:17:37) Do you think Bitcoin's I mean, that's particularly with themer emergence of the treasury companies. You have a lot of longtime Bitcoiners saying, "Ah, we're getting away from our cippher punk roots. this is turning into something I I did not join the movement for quote unquote. Do you feel that at all or is this an inevitable outcome of the like what what comes with the adoption of a better money? Yeah, I mean Bitcoin either it was always a winner take all like whether either it was going to become big and boring or it was just going to disappear. And uh and of course there is
(1:18:09) a kind of a more dystopian scenario where Bitcoin does become big and boring and people neglect its uh its amazing uh capabilities of of allowing self-s sovereignty and and and autonomous storage and and collaborative custody and all those things. Yeah.
(1:18:31) And then that's that's kind of a then you get a a somewhat better fiat system where where people might still be stuck in Bitcoin banks and things like that. That's not really happening. I think I think we have a healthy culture. But it's it's one of the risks. I think if if we lose that vigilance then uh we could use some of the actual you know tangible perks.
(1:18:50) Yeah. I think you have it in the report, but as it stands today, more than 50% of Bitcoin that has been distributed in the market is held in self- custody. Yeah. Held by individuals in self-custody, I believe. Yeah. That's something that I don't think many people number one understand or appreciate.
(1:19:10) You can't appreciate if you don't understand it. I think there's an assumption that everybody's holding their their coins on the exchange. Also, there's an assumption that all the Bitcoiners are somehow magically on crypto Twitter. It's like, nope. There's huge whales out there that nobody's ever seen or met on online.
(1:19:31) Um, and uh and I think that's for the better. You know, people who uh who just kind of quietly um you know, live their life and and and and take their time to decide what to do with this legacy. Yeah. And for those who haven't decided to uh to get in yet, but are maybe thinking about it, listening to this, reading your report, you have some recommendations for allocation strategies based on risk profile.
(1:19:56) Yeah. So, I think there's a few ways. This is I I tried to just simplify it because of course you can go at it from 20 different angles. But uh but one one simple approach that I think makes sense is just to think of Bitcoin as an insurance policy for the rest of your your investment assets.
(1:20:16) Um similar to how if you own a home, you're going to get homeowners insurance just in case it catches fire. You never know. And uh so I think for homeowners historically they would pay like 0.25% 25% of the value of the home per year to the insurance.
(1:20:35) And um so when I published the report two years ago, I said, you know, maybe 2 and a half%, you know, take 2 and 12% of the value of all your assets, put that in Bitcoin as a kind of a lump sum insurance policy. Um but I think, you know, 2 years later, it's sort of like there's smoke coming out of your kitchen already.
(1:20:55) like you know it's kind of your house is starting to catch fire and so the cost of insurance has to go up then and so that's why I'm I'm suggesting like 5% of your assets in Bitcoin in order to to really you know if there's a bond because people a lot of people have sort of the 60/40 portfolio or you know maybe you have um um I think it's actually most people have 60% in stocks and maybe 40% in bonds that's probably changing and there's a bunch of real estate in there as well but but yeah you Oh, if if one of those catch fire, uh I think Bitcoin is going to compensate for uh for those losses at least so that at
(1:21:27) least you can kind of maintain your purchasing power uh over time. And then um the other way to think about Bitcoin is as a speculative asset. Um, and so speculative, of course, that word has a negative ring to it, but really if you try and define it objectively, I think a a a speculative bet is kind of a bet that you know a little bit better than uh most of the other participants, especially when it comes to government intervention.
(1:22:01) And so specifically because the government keeps printing money, certain parts of the economy at any given time are going to be way over inflated in value and then other parts of the economy are going to be artificially uh lower valued. They they won't have caught up yet.
(1:22:20) And so that's that's why I've been so bearish about uh real estate, for example, is because it was so easy to borrow money to buy real estate. Whereas if you wanted to get involved in commodities and you know growing wheat or uh pulling oil out of the ground well credit was a lot harder to get for those type of companies.
(1:22:37) So that's why they were undervalued for so long. One of the reasons so so anyway long story but from that point of view I think Bitcoin is still really undervalued like that, you know, it's not like you could go to the bank and get a loan to then invest in Bitcoin. That that has just never been the case.
(1:22:56) Um, and so that's why I think you from a speculative point of view, you could think about like 20%, put 20% of your uh of your, you know, so basically allocate one entire basket of your diversified portfolio to Bitcoin uh as an asset class. Um, so so that's the other suggestion. And then the final suggestion is okay, we'll say that you're a younger person and you're thinking about uh reducing the age of retirement and and and being more comfortable with your family, then I think you could you could consider 20 to 50% of your assets invested in Bitcoin.
(1:23:29) Uh and that's of course aggressive, but but you know, the goal is of course an aggressive one as well is to to really drastically reduce your retirement age. Or you could get on zero like some of us and go 100% all in. Yeah. But it's hard to defend that as like you know trying to be a reasonable uh you know financial analyst.
(1:23:49) I'm being facitious. I'm being facitious. But you also have uh advice on like weighing the decision to get in with a lump sum or dollar cost averaging. How do you how do you view those two different allocation strategies? Yeah. So over the years, it's become pretty clear that they both have their benefits.
(1:24:12) If you do dollar cost averaging, that's easier for younger people that just don't have a lot of builtup savings, but they do have steady income. Um, so that's just more accessible for younger people. Uh, have it just a fixed amount, invest in Bitcoin every week or every month.
(1:24:30) Um, and and the added benefit of that is that it's also psychologically easier to to to bear. Uh because if Bitcoin crashes, what comes to mind for you is like, oh, now I get to buy more Bitcoin more cheaply, right? And so you just steadily accumulate. Um but over time, if you have the ability, if you have built up savings, which is usually more the case for older people, uh and you can invest a lump sum, just basically decide, look, I'm going to invest 10% of my portfolio in Bitcoin, so why not just do it today instead of spreading that over one or two years very slowly. let
(1:25:03) it trickle. Um, historically, almost always, you're going to get a better return. You're going to be able to to have more Bitcoin um, if you do a lump sum versus uh, spreading out the same amount over time, which is, you know, logical because of of how Bitcoin has been moving up.
(1:25:24) Uh and then so additionally it is a bit harder to to weather such a decision psychologically because you might have you know you might be underwater for one year or two years or for 3 years you know you might it might take that long to actually uh see your your investment be in the green expressed in dollars.
(1:25:43) Sorry I was on mute because I was screenshotting uh a visualization of these two different strategies juxtaposed. Sil if you want to pull that up just to get some data in front of people so they can see this if you're watching on YouTube or podcasting apps of a video. So number of analyzed per let's So this was WS Bitcoin um wicked Bitcoin is this wicked bitcoin not sure not sure yeah this is a good visualization lump sum does seem to be superior like you mentioned but like you also mentioned I I think particularly for younger people younger millennials Gen Z it's very daunting for them because they
(1:26:25) see Bitcoin at $117,000 I'm never going to make it. But I always like to advise like just start like you said every week, every two weeks, every month, whatever you can stomach, just start and don't stop. Go at it for 4 years and look up and I think you'll be very happy. Consistency is king. Absolutely. And and it's the the same thing with a lump sum.
(1:26:47) Then you know the consistency there is is that you have to commit to holding it for a certain period. And that's why I usually recommend look think about an amount that no matter what you can hold for four, five plus years. So let's say 5 years. You lock it in for 5 years. No matter the price, no m you you even in your mind run through the scenarios.
(1:27:12) It crashes 80%, 90%, you're still going to hold it. So what's the amount that you could do that with? And that's going to be different for everyone. Yeah. Get ready for Hey, who knows? Maybe we're in new cycle territory. Maybe we have elongated cycles. Maybe no more 80% draw downs. Who who knows? Maybe it's easier to stomach for people with lumpsum.
(1:27:35) I mean, there's always the possibility of a panic, you know, where the market is just composed of humans. And so no matter what, we can we saw oil go negative like who could have imagined that, right? Like a like a physical asset all of a sudden trading at a negative price in the world.
(1:27:53) Then you had all the uh all the Reddit traders who were taking futures not understanding that uh if the futures contract comes up negative, you actually have to deliver oil to ComX. Not not an ideal situation to be in. Yep. The uh and I guess last but not least, actually second to last but not least, you get into Bitcoin. How do you think people should look at custodying it? Yeah, I think um I guess what I usually say is just buy a little bit first, you know, before all this the complicated stories about how to hold it and how to, you know, just, you know, just try to get dip your toe
(1:28:34) in the water, like get a little bit of exposure. Uh the chances that whatever platform you use, especially, you know, there's a few suggestions that I have, these are companies that that have been around for a while that that have built up some good reputation. the chance that that company is going to go away overnight is is very low.
(1:28:51) So, so let's just get a little exposure first. Um, hold it on that platform and then once you have it and you start, you know, starting to kind of feel it more, then you can start looking at different ways to to hold your Bitcoin. Um, and so I think that the one way that's described, um, that's becoming probably the least popular now is just simple single signature self-custody.
(1:29:21) And that's not to poo poo that entirely, you know, I think that, you know, they it might work for people. Um, but but I I think it there's a pretty general consensus among Bitcoiners that have been around for a bit longer that multi-IG is is superior. Even if you're going to hold all your own keys, multi- signature is just uh has just more features that make it make it more secure.
(1:29:45) Um especially it loses the the sit, you know, you you you get rid of the situation where somebody compromises just a one location and um and and based on that one, you know, it's like the evil mate attack like she finds your hardware wallet or your backup keys and then she can just withdraw the whole wallet. that scenario pretty much goes away with multiig.
(1:30:06) Um, and so then I think the next question is like, okay, do you do you hold all your own keys in multic or do you work together with other people or other companies to to help you manage those those keys? And then of course the the the last scenario is you you you don't bother with your own keys at all.
(1:30:25) you just deposit it at a third party like a I don't know could be a Fidelity Digital Assassis, could be a Kraken, could be a um any any of the centralized exchanges and then uh you hold it there. I guess that there's one other option is that you buy the Bitcoin ETF or you buy, you know, one of the one of the Bitcoin strategy uh companies that that that would be the last option. Yeah.
(1:30:51) My recommendation would be if you're going to hold it on an exchange, I typically, you mentioned Kraken. Kraken has been around for a while, but I tend to uh to lean towards the Bitcoin only exchanges. So like if you're doing on an exchange like Strike, River are the two that I recommend particularly for us.
(1:31:13) There there's really something to be said for you know bit focused on Bitcoin only it just less distraction for the engineers. You know less distractions means on average probably better execution. Um yeah, I think there's absolutely something to be said for that. Um I think also just based on the stories that I've heard over the years, maybe not hold all your Bitcoin in the same place.
(1:31:36) It's just so devastating, you know, when people have all their Bitcoin in in one, you know, one little basket and then the basket falls and they get hacked or something and you lose everything. like that means your your whatever future you had imagined could be wiped out, you know. Yeah.
(1:31:53) So that's something that I do kind of tell people is like, hey, consider some some different places to hold it, especially if it's a significant amount. Yeah. Could be catastrophic. And the and a lot of people get complacent. There was just a I'm not sure if you saw it, but there was a big exchange account earlier this week at BTC Turk.
(1:32:14) $48 million worth of Bitcoin and other assets just drained from the exchange. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, it's like it's a real risk. I think people we've seen it time and time again. And now also, you know, with AI, it's just getting a little scary. you know, the the the amount of the the abilities that they have to to social hack your account, to pretend to be you towards the exchange in order to whatever change your password or or somehow get access is uh is is increased by an order of magnitude because of AI's abilities.
(1:32:49) Yeah. So, be careful you get in. Practice makes perfect. I like to I like to tell people, spin up a mobile wallet, write down the seed, send a very little bit of Bitcoin, $10, $20, erase the wallet from your phone, delete the app, redownload it, recover from your seed, get comfortable sending and receiving, and then seriously contemplate like beefing up your security because it's important.
(1:33:15) Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's it's true. Um there's there's no there's no real shortcuts, you know. Um it's it's true because, you know, you have to do you have to put in some work, you know. You can even when you're saying like, "Oh, I'm going to work with companies." Like, "Well, then you got to do some due diligence on which companies are you going to work with and and and how.
(1:33:40) " Or even if it's like, "Well, I I'm not going to do that. I don't know." Well, then you got to trust some talking heads that recommend things. So then who you going to trust, you know? So you you you then want to kind of at least put in some work thinking about, okay, who what's going on here? Who am I trusting to make these decisions? Um, and and and is that based in reality? Yeah. Think about it, freaks.
(1:34:04) I want to end it on this cuz I I thought this was a great way to end the piece. Logan, pull up the very last page of the report. I just really like the uh the commentary you put under this. This work is titled the power of the peace. It was created in 1577 to convey and hope the hope of a young belleaguered nation to achieve peace in its territories which was eventually achieved in 1648 with the formal recognition of the independent Dutch Republic.
(1:34:34) The etch by sorry for butchering this van cleave is full of symbolism. It shows how prudence, reason, force and time can work together to control violence in society. The swords and lances from the war are transformed in the sickles and plowshares, retooling society for peace. In the grand furnace displayed center stage, we see a display of technology as a force for good.
(1:34:57) This is also our hope for an expectation of the cipher punk project and its current apex, Bitcoin. Channeling human effort in a way that encourages society to grow more orderly and peaceful. Bitcoin contributes to a harmonious world by serving as a scarce, robust money that protects families wealth through space and time by acting as an incorruptible tool for builders, supporting them and creating honest and enduring institutions.
(1:35:22) And I thought this was a perfect way to end because it really anchors the reader back to why we're in this in the first place in a hopeful future. Exactly. To me that that piece is really helping me reflect about I think it's a fact that capital in itself isn't bad. Technology in itself isn't bad. It can be used for bad things but but we can retool we can retool things uh and and and and start using them for better and and making like like in in the picture, right? I mean you you got swords and you then you create plowshares out of them. So, so all this monetary energy that is in the
(1:35:59) world, we don't have to do we don't have to delete it. We don't have to destroy what's there. We just we're just working on retooling it and and making it so that um people's ability to act in a fair way is is enhanced. And then of course we have to also build fair institutions and networks to do that.
(1:36:18) So that that you know I think that's very important these days because there is this kind of tendency towards maybe like Marxism or nihilism or it's like oh you know business is bad and and and so we need to just kind of take the reigns and and and or or like do the revolution and start from scratch and delete everything. I think that's terrible.
(1:36:41) I think, you know, it's much better to and it's harder to do, but but it's um it's it's the only way to really get to where we want to come is is to go through instead of uh trying to deny the reality and uh and trying to start from scratch. Like nobody's ever achieved that, I think. No.
(1:37:04) For all you Luigi populist out there, um find God first and then find Bitcoin. There's we're going to work through this. Amen. It's uh we're going to do it. Tour, you're a tour to force. Been writing these reports for a decade now. First midcycle update and I appreciate you for spending your Friday afternoon with me to go through it. It was a blast. Thanks, Marty. You go enjoy your weekend and uh we'll link to this in the show notes. Freaks. Go check it out.
(1:37:31) Send it to anybody in your extended network, family, friends who you think is sort of on the cusp of either becoming Bitcoin curious or already is. It needs a little push over the ledge. This report, I think, is the push that could get him over there. Peace and love, freaks, freaks. Thank you for listening to the show. I hope you liked it.
(1:37:55) If you did like it, please make sure you subscribe, rate, review the show. It helps us out a lot. And also, if you like these conversations, I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast. They don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company. We have the newsletter, the Bitcoin Brief, go to TFTC.io. Make sure you subscribe there.
(1:38:12) A lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter. We also have the TFTC elite tier. If you sign up for that, become a member. We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early.
(1:38:37) Logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early, become a TFTC Elite member. You will get that. We have our Discord server right now. conversation between myself and TFTC elite tier members, but we're going to expand that. We'll probably do close Q&As with people in the industry. Uh I may be doing macro Mondays. So, join us.
(1:39:00) Go to tftc.io, subscribe, find the button in the top right corner of the website, become a TFTC Elite member. Thank you for joining us.
