Key Takeaways

In this episode, Bram Kanstein delivers a powerful exploration of how studying money for thousands of hours led him to a single, life-changing conclusion: Bitcoin is the key to preserving value and reclaiming personal agency in an increasingly unstable world. Through the lens of a disillusioned millennial generation—raised with technological optimism but betrayed by economic reality—Bram exposes the fiat system as one built on illusion, debt, and diminishing returns. He explains how Bitcoin’s transparent, rule-based design offers a principled alternative, especially for those wired to question systems and seek truth. Describing the fiat economy as a “high-velocity trash system” that undermines innovation and long-term planning, he argues Bitcoin creates the time and space to think, build, and live freely. As AI reshapes the labor market, Bram sees Bitcoin as a vital foundation for individuals to adapt, maintain sovereignty, and thrive in a future defined by rapid technological disruption.

Best Quotes

“Anything that you would want to fix in the world is broken because the money is broken.”

“You’re stacking nothing. Literal paper.”

“You have to red pill before you orange pill.”

“The only thing you need to do is move to the other money that they cannot mess with.”

“One Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. That’s the whole point.”

“Millennials are primed to understand Bitcoin.”

“Bitcoin lets you get out of the rat race and start walking your own path.”

“The fiat mindset is a zero-sum game. In Bitcoin, value is created.”

“We should stop asking how to value Bitcoin—and start asking how to value everything else in Bitcoin.”

“Even with a master’s in economics, people still don’t understand what money is.”

Conclusion

This episode delivers a powerful call to rethink everything we assume about money, arguing that understanding Bitcoin is less about profit and more about reclaiming personal agency in a world defined by uncertainty. Bram Kanstein shows how asking fundamental questions—like “What is money?”—can lead to a deeper sense of purpose and autonomy. As AI and systemic instability accelerate, Bitcoin emerges not just as sound money, but as a life tool for intentional living, long-term thinking, and individual sovereignty.

Timestamps

0:00 - Intro
0:36 - INTJ bitcoiners
4:58 - The millennial headspace is primed for bitcoin
7:25 - Bitcoin gives time and space to build
15:29 - Fold & Bitkey
17:05 - Seeing systemic problems
26:25 - Bitcoin’s positive feedback loop
33:55 - Recognize your agency
37:58 - Unchained
38:27 - Fiat money creates uncertainty
44:41 - What is money?
54:04 - Money and energy
1:03:43 - Bitcoin allows growth
1:09:02 - Bitcoin/AI
1:31:34 - Optimistic note

Transcript

(00:00) Let's say you're a millennial and mid-30s and you want to retire in 30 years. If you calculate the amount of dollar, pound the euro, yen units. You need way more units of that money than you think right now. They are funding pension funds, but the pension funds are using that money for the people that are actually retiring.
(00:17) No one knows about money. They don't know how debt works, how finance works. But that's kind of how it's designed, right? Like that's what eventually keeps the Ponzi alive. And I just started with the question, what do you think happens if you call the bank and say like, hey, can I get 100 or 200k in cash? Man, you got an editor like in house.
(00:39) That's That's pro. That's uh it's because this setup I'm so far away from the computer. I just need somebody to hit the button. Okay. Okay. the extent the extent of of Logan's job extends far beyond just hitting the button. But yeah, INTJ I think uh I think it was as we rear into what looks to be another bull market.
(01:05) I think getting back to first principles and discussing the challenges of studying and understanding Bitcoin, it's important to to highlight the archetype of individuals who have studied fallen down the rabbit hole and really dedicated their lives to Bitcoin. And this INTJ cohort that exists within Bitcoin seems pretty material apparently. Yeah.
(01:35) I mean, I have many moments where I just realize that I'm lucky that my brain is wired in a certain way, you know. I feel like crazy blessed that I figured out this Bitcoin thing, you know, and that when I ran into certain realizations along the way in my Bitcoin journey that I was like, hm, you know, how does this actually work? you know, do I actually understand the systems I'm participating in, the things that I believe, you know, the the the the people that I abstracted um or or outsourced certain responsibilities to to take care of, for example, my money
(02:10) in the bank. You know, I I think um being wired in a certain way definitely helps in grasping Bitcoin to a degree where you're like, okay, this is the only thing I need to pay attention to, you know, in my life. And yeah, we we jokingly started talking about this because I have the hat here, but there was this um I think it was like like a Twitter poll actually or someone shared it on Twitter and this is already like two or three years old where where someone investigated these MyersBriggs um personality types and I think there's
(02:42) only like 2% of people that have INTJ but like 20% of Bitcoiners have that personality type. So it um it apparently helps. So yeah, I just I just quickly Googled it actually. It says uh the INTJ is the architect. It's a personality type with the introverted intuitive thinking and judging traits. These thoughtful tacticians love perfecting the details of life, applying creativity and rationality to everything they do.
(03:09) I think the rationality part here is what um what uh I think helps you to to gro Bitcoin eventually. Yeah, it reminds me of I forget what the study was, but postco it was a similar distribution of just like 2% of people were highly skeptical of what was going on with the lockdowns and the attack on bodily autonomy.
(03:38) And there was a study that was done about I forget it was bees or some type of fly that they they have like the horde of um the horde of the particular fly I think it was bees has like 2% act as these sort of alarm bells that are on the outside the outskirts of the community and they'll start communicating like hey something's wrong here and people the other flies or bees will be skeptical at first but then eventually uh the alarm bells will be proven to be right that there was some sort of danger around the corner. That's fascinating.
(04:09) Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. I I think we're not that special eventually, you know, like we think we have all this autonomy, but but um yeah, we're we're just wired in a certain way. And I think I don't know where you want to take this conversation, but I think, you know, part of growing up and being an adult is figuring out, you know, how do I actually work and how do I work with how I work, you know? Yeah. No, it is.
(04:36) And as I get older, creep into my mid-30s, which is hard hard to come to grips with, it is uh really falling back on like, all right, I I feel like I have a good perspective on the world and my place in it, and how do I just optimize to make sure I'm aligning my my work and my career, I guess, if you call it that, with what I'm passionate about. Yeah.
(05:00) Well, I also think that is actually why our generation, you know, my my podcast is Bitcoin for millennials. I think uh the millennials are primed to understand Bitcoin. You know, we are in this life phase where big things happen, you know, starting a family or settling somewhere or or making big career moves or decide Yeah.
(05:25) like deciding what am I going to spend like the next 10 20 years on and uh I think it's an interesting phase actually I I don't know how that was for you but but for me like the the 30s were really where I dove more and more into Bitcoin like got got that stronger conviction and also yeah kind of was invited to go further down that that rabbit hole you know and like how I see it now is that that Bitcoin is really the foundation for the rest of my life, you know, like it it gives me time and space to look forward and enthusiasm, you know, like I sometimes lurk on the
(06:01) millennial subreddit, you know, or the finance sub subreddit. And many people in our generation are very nihilistic, you know, they're very unsure about the future. Like some people aren't even having kids because they think they cannot afford it, you know. And uh whenever I read that, I just think like, yeah, I I don't really have those things.
(06:22) But I know it's because of Bitcoin, you know. I I know that Bitcoin gives me, yeah, like I said, the time and space to figure out what's next, like what should I focus on? Like it gives time and space to to try out stuff, to build something, you know, to to to really attempt at at doing something. Where I see many people that don't see that, they are more in the consumer type, you know, like they they just spend the money that's worth the most today, you know, like that's what they're incentivized to do. Yeah.
(06:49) And is is that why you started Bitcoin for millennials is to number one put the put the message out there. Millennials come listen to this. One of you Yes. that is trying to educate you about this. But because this is something I think about a lot is somebody's like dead smack in the middle of the millennial generation and has observed many of the things you just described in my own life, my own network.
(07:13) And that's part of the reason why this podcast exists. And um what I'm trying to do at TFTC is just try to figure out a way to reach into the minds of millennials, hopefully change some minds, rewire some brains to to reorient not totally around Bitcoin, but understand that Bitcoin is a tool that they could leverage to achieve the goals that we were sold growing up that didn't materialize by taking the the path that was sort of scripted for us by by the older generations. Yes.
(07:45) I think that's mainly it right. So yes, the older generations sold us, you know, air quotes, sold us a certain path like this, this is how you build your life, etc. And um, you know, I think every Bitcoin journey is of course first an individual journey. In general, I think Bitcoin is a one by one conversion technology, right? you really um yeah have to challenge certain understanding beliefs preconceptions you know that that you have about many things you know in Bitcoin many things come together but mainly it's about money finance
(08:21) economics right like the the the things we thought were true or or how we thought things worked eventually aren't how they work or at least they aren't designed to benefit our individual life and I think I first had to have that realization and that's kind of where it started for me.
(08:40) I mean, I've been in in Bitcoin since 2014, like on and off, like I usually share. Like, I bought between like 100 and 300. I sold everyone at everything at 4,000, you know. Um, got distracted with crypto eventually. Just realized Bitcoin is the only thing to pay attention to. And it actually was one of the moments uh was in 2017. I worked at a big bank.
(08:59) I was already into Bitcoin. I had a mortgage, you know, I was participating in the financial system. And then I had a colleague tell me, you know, did you know that the money in the bank is not yours? And I was like, what? Like what are you talking about? I was 30 then, right? And we had a like a lunch for an hour and of well, you know, in a financial corporate you could take lunch for for an hour.
(09:21) And so we had a conversation and he explained fractional reserve banking to me and I remember walking away from that conversation just feeling like an idiot like I'm I'm participating in a system that I really don't understand you know and when I connected that to Bitcoin it felt like even though I was into it and and studying it I wasn't really looking at it from like the the the the finance and economics angle or dimension.
(09:50) And then I realized I'm I'm storing my economic energy in a system that I don't understand, you know, and and sometime later I realized, you know, I do understand what Bitcoin is and what I should do is move, you know, I'm just moving whatever I accumulated in the fiat money system and I'm moving that to save that in the in the Bitcoin system.
(10:09) And you know, other things came along that I didn't understand about finance and economics and studied and eventually, you know, just growing my conviction. And I think it was that that really motivated me to just do more, see if I can contribute to Bitcoin. So why not another podcast, right? But then when I was thinking about that, you know, what what type of podcast like who should I talk to? I had like a period of two three weeks, I think, where I had like two three calls with other Bitcoiners I knew from the internet
(10:39) because, you know, the real life journey was very lonely. Um, and with all these conversations, I thought like, hey, it would have been fun to just have recorded this and shared this online and just see what people think of, you know, the the learnings we shared and reflections and and thoughts about the future of Bitcoin.
(10:58) And so that was kind of stuck in my mind. But like in the same time period, I had some meetings with friends, just you know, millennial friends, but there was in particular like one friend and uh he's one of my best friends, very smart, intelligent entrepreneur, and I love him to death. and he uh he sold this company like a few few years ago and so he has quite some money uh but that's all in the bank right he had no Bitcoin at that point and we were going on a golf trip and we would be sitting in the car for 2 hours and I we we I we I I jumped in the car
(11:25) and I said we're going to talk about Bitcoin right like I'm I'm just going to corner you here you're driving you know I'm going to I'm going to talk about Bitcoin here because you know I I that's how I started like I love you but you know um you know we should talk about this like you spent years building a company spending all this time and energy someone was crazy enough to give you you know a really big reward and then you gave it all away like it's all in the bank you know and I just started with the question what do you think
(11:54) happens if you call the bank and say like hey can I get 100 or 200k in cash you know and we kind of talked about that and he was like yeah I don't know maybe they don't have all the bills and it takes a few days and blah blah blah like he he just looked at it as like a nuisance like a practical uh little hump that they had to get over.
(12:14) And then I said, "Okay, but if you call and you get a random person on the phone, right, and you say, "Well, can I get 100K or 200K?" They're going to look in their little decision tree and be like, "Oh, 100K. That's over my threshold." Right now, I have to ask these questions like, "What are you going to use it for, sir?" You know, and like all these things.
(12:30) And I tried to like paint that picture. And mind you, like I think he's very intelligent, right? So, this is it's not about intelligence. I was like explaining and I said like but this is not yours you know if you need someone between you and the reward you got for selling your company then just by definition in my mind at least it's just it it's not yours and he didn't see that at all and so then I said well if you don't think that's a problem then you know the rest of the conversation is going to be a bit difficult you know I first need you to
(12:59) see the problem well then of course we had we just had like a fun weekend I just let it go but then I realized And also after talking to to several other millennial friends like no one knows about money. No one knows about money. They don't know how how how debt works, how finance works. They don't know where money for from mortgages comes from. Like they have no clue.
(13:19) And then I just realized, yeah, that that I also didn't have a clue. But that's kind of how it's designed, right? Like that's what eventually keeps the Ponzi alive. You're just doing what other people are doing and what other people did before you. And that's basically it. And to a degree, of course, it works.
(13:37) Especially if you live in a western country, you know, the money still works for us. But I think slowly but surely that will become less. And especially when I started thinking about retirement, right? So let's say you're a millennial and mid-30s and you want to retire in 30 years. If you calculate the amount of dollar, pound, euro, yen, units, whatever your currency is, and it's being debased at a rate that's in real terms probably close to like 7 8% or what what was it like the last 10 years it's close to 9. You need way more units of that money
(14:15) than you think right now or that your you know pension fund tells you and whatever. And so I think that especially the millennials because the retirement part is so far away they are funding pension funds but the pension funds are using that money for the people that are actually retiring right and even for my mother who's uh mid60s I I don't know if the money is there and so when I started realizing that the retirement for millennials will probably either be gone or be debased to such a degree that you cannot have the life that
(14:51) you're envisioning right now like when you retire. That's kind of when I thought okay if I had to pick a niche for my podcast then why not millennials you know it's a and it's also so we have the problem but I think it's also a big enough niche and next to that actually I think we are primed to understand Bitcoin like we are the generation that really saw like analog technology turning into digital technology really seeing technology new technology take off seeing how that replaced other technology other behavior etc and so
(15:24) Yeah, I think that's a long-winded answer, but I uh that yeah, there's multiple things that came together there for me. Listen, freaks, I know you're tired of me talking about Fold, but I'm going to beat the drum. I'm going to beat the dead horse. If you're a Bitcoiner living in the United States and you're not using Fold, I'm just going to ask one question.
(15:41) What are you doing? You're leaving SATS on the table. They've got gift cards. They've got their debit card. You can use your credit card. Just connect your credit card to the Fold app. Use the Fold out to pay off your credit card. and you're going to stack your credit card points and Bitcoin as well.
(15:56) They even teamed up with Crowd Health to give their members Fold Plus membership at no cost. Don't leave SATs on the table. Go sign up for Fold today. Go to tftc.io/fold. There's nothing to lose except SATs that you could have stacked. Sup freaks. This rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey. Bit Key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose.
(16:20) It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two or three multisig. You have one key on the hardware wallet, one key on your mobile device and block stores a key in the cloud for you. This is an incredible hardware device for your friends and family or maybe yourself who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a long time but haven't taken a step to self-custody because they're worried about the complications of setting up a private public key pair, securing that seed phrase, setting up a pin, setting up a passphrase. Again, Bit Key makes it
(16:47) easy to use, hard to lose. It's the easiest 0ero to one step, your first step to self-custody. If you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't moved it off, tell them to pick up a big key. Go to bitkey.world. Use the key TFTC 20 at checkout for 20% off your order. That's bit.world, code TFTC20.
(17:08) No, it's not only the stra the the ability of the millennials to straddle the analog world with the digital world having grown up and seen it up close and personal. the advent of I've said it multiple times on this show went from star 69 to caller ID to loading up AOL onto your computer with a with a CD to more robust browsers to the open internet the apps and now transitioning into this getting closer to the singularity with AI advancing at the pace it is but not only that the other side of that we've seen all the corruption like that's what always
(17:46) boggles my mind about our generation, others in our generation not really grasping the profoundity of Bitcoin specifically is having lived through the dotcom bubble, 2008, um COVID crash, 2023 banking crisis, mix in a European credit crisis in the middle of all that and the endless wars, the um corruption that Wikileaks and Edward Snowden have surfaced over the years.
(18:16) And it seems like we went through all that in our formative years from early adolescence to teenage to adulthood just constantly being bered with corruption and a dysfunctional monetary system over and over again. And it's like come on guys like this is what we were we've been sort of bred in our lifetime to to understand that there needs to be a solution to these problems.
(18:44) But to your point earlier of people never questioning it, I think there's also like a massive sunk cost fallacy where people Oh, 100%. have come up and built their lives around assumptions that we know to be completely corrupt and at their core from first principles perspective. But people sort of read the script, tried to live their lives by the script, and they're so far down the road where it's like, uh, you're telling me I have to throw this script out, and it it it was completely bunk.
(19:18) And I think I think that's a big thing. So this whole concept of being able to really check your ego and show some humility and acknowledge that there's a potential that you were misled and duped to a certain extent that many people can't get over. don't even want to confront in the first place really. No, I think, you know, I sometimes jokingly, but I think it's also partially true, like you got a red pill before your orange pill, you know, like you you you have to get to that point where you you know, when I go on these subreddits, for example, right? Like
(19:53) people see that there are problems, but they don't understand where it's coming from, you know? And you mentioned all these things that that, you know, we experienced. I also had to think of Occupy Wall Street, right? I think that was like 2011 12ish something like where where did that go? You know, I think those are by the way like the progressive people now that are not progressive, but that's another discussion maybe, but it feels like so I agree.
(20:25) It it it I think many people feel it, but there aren't any tools besides Bitcoin, I would say, that can help you mitigate these problems, right? So if if Bitcoin doesn't cross your path or you're not curious enough or you don't have the you know the problem isn't big enough I think especially you know with FTX and like that whole debacle like people hate crypto and Bitcoin is crypto of course right like I think a lot of people either are and broke or they g gave up right like just the money is running out but I think they also gave up like on just
(21:00) know crypto is is nonsense etc. So, I don't know. I I feel like it's a it's a mix of things. Yeah, definitely. Like in the Western world, you know, money just works. When you were younger, you got some bills and some coins. You went to a store, you got you gave that, you got something in return and and you were like, well, apparently this is money, you know, like this is just what this is just what we do.
(21:24) And um yeah, because we live in in in ultimate luxury. And in general, I think the millennial generation is probably um has grown up in the best time to ever grow up from any person that probably ever lived, you know, like growing up in the '90s, I think, was the best uh and and early 2000, you know. Um so there there isn't that much of a need that that is clear enough, you know.
(21:51) I I think for many people it feels a bit further away and that's also why you know if you just get a glimpse of some sort of red pill type moment you're like no no no I don't need that you know like I'm I'm still good let's just let's just push that away a little bit but I think on the other side of that there's a huge reward there's a huge reward because once you are aware you will also become aware that many people aren't aware you know and that's the big opportunity I I think of uh of Bitcoin again like I really don't feel the same problems as I'm reading
(22:24) about of you know our generational peers and and and I can only attribute that to Bitcoin like if Bitcoin didn't exist but I knew all these things I think I I I wouldn't be able to sleep at night you know like like the the I understand the nihilistic outlook towards the future if you if you don't take Bitcoin into account. Yeah.
(22:49) Yeah, I mean that was certainly me before I found Bitcoin in college. Just that's crazy. Like in college, if that is your outlook towards the future, right? Like just think about that. And I think I have the same I even have that worse with with with people in our generation that that decide not to have children because they think they cannot afford it.
(23:08) Like the idea that a man-made mechanism, tool, system, you know, the fiat money system is blocking you from following your biolog biological urges, you know, like that. That's that's that's a that's a huge spirit spiritual crime even, you know, like you're you're you're taking that progression of life away because of some system made by other people that in general are not better than you, smarter than you, deserve more in their life or or whatever, right? And um I think once I realized that like this is just made by other people that are not better than me
(23:44) that that definitely don't care more about my personal life than I care about my personal life that's also when it kind of clicked that you know in Bitcoin it's rules not rulers you know the whole decentralized structure like I don't have to trust anyone basically everyone is trusting other people because everyone is trusting other people or like because they are following the rules that's basically it right like everyone is following the rules because they know that all the other people are following the rules. So there there's
(24:11) like a really nice positive incentive loop there. Even though that they have this gnawing feeling in the pit of their stomach that the rules are skewed in the favor of a select few that have an extreme amount of influence over the system at large. I mean Occupy Wall Street being a perfect manifestation of that. Yes.
(24:32) But to to tie it back to what you said, you know, about how we grew up, what I I do think and I think that's not talked about enough or just undervalued in general is what I really see in like the Bitcoin culture, the Bitcoin movement is like like raw internet culture. You know what I mean? Like it's just is, you know, the the whole thing like you you can just do the thing, you know? You can just talk [ __ ] on the internet.
(24:58) Like we can do that, right? Because what you said, many people know this, but they're like, "Yeah, I cannot really do anything about it." But that is nonsense, right? Like the people that are doing that to you are a crazy crazy minority. Insane minority, right? And I think you see this too with your podcast. Like I'm I'm doing a podcast too.
(25:18) You can just talk about this and reach thousands of people, millions of millions of people with your thoughts, your reflections, you know, your criticism of certain, you know, development systems, uh, whatever. And it reaches real people, you know, like people commenting on this video are real people, you know, and I and and that is so mind-blowing.
(25:39) Like the internet is such an insane tool to combat, you know, centralized decision making that is usually fundamentally flawed because the incentives that these people have for decision-m are um focused on keeping this centralized decision-m uh party alive, you know, where the internet has democratized the access to all information and you can learn from anyone, you know.
(26:09) So in in my mind conceptually like all these old systems are already disrupted but not not everyone is seeing that yet. Does that make sense? Like there's that just this raw internet culture of Bitcoin. Like sometimes I see Bitcoin memes or like these videos where I just think like yeah this is this is it. Like we can just do this, right? Like you can just build a culture that is on the internet and when you reach people in real life it you already are connected like you you have a certain connection and a certain bond like we we can
(26:39) actually create that. Yeah. And it becomes this very positive feedback loop where and I I've seen this just throughout the years of going to Bitcoin events in person. And I mean, I think the first Inerson Bitcoin event I went to was the beginning of 2015 in New York City. And comparing what that room was like compared to the rooms that you go to these days at Bitcoin meetups, it's just way bigger scale, way more diverse group of people.
(27:11) And you can see sort of this culture has kickstarted this feedback loop that probably mirrors the adoption sort of phases of Bitcoin. But you can see it's happening. That's the other thing like you mentioned YouTube comments and I think this will be an interesting thought experiment and exercise to partake in is there's always very positive comments but always the negative like ah either I'm too late to Bitcoin, Bitcoin will never work.
(27:39) Um, good luck trying to combat the government. And it's the comments that I see and observe that come from a place of defeatism always astonish me because it's like, yeah, okay, like your assumptions are Bitcoin can't work, the government will stop it, and it's too late for me. And it's like, okay, what is what is the alternative of not even trying to make something happen? And I I had a conversation with Brian Harrington a couple weeks ago and to your point about like framing Bitcoin, maybe they need the red red pill before the orange
(28:14) pill, something I've been thinking about for the last few weeks after that conversation is he he thinks we should be out there framing Bitcoin as the path to financial freedom. like you can not only get rich but have the life that you want with Bitcoin and just sort of co-op the Tik Tok sort of uh finance bro influencer of like here's how you get the financial freedom but do it in a right way.
(28:39) Um, which is fascinating to me and I I think for millennials specifically in their mid30s, late 40s looking at their RAAS or excuse me, their IAS or their 401ks being like, is that really going to get me to retirement and just pitching the message like Bitcoin pro probably not. Maybe it will get you to retirement, but the purchasing power will be significantly diminished.
(29:04) shares Bitcoin your actual path to financial freedom and retirement if you so wish. I mean I have a header on my YouTube channel which says discover how Bitcoin can help you secure your financial future. Like this is what I believe because secure is not about like I'm going to become a multi-millionaire. It's more about like you're not going to be poor you know if if you try to use the system that that you're currently in.
(29:30) And I agree. I do also think so he like what he says you mean is like we should go harder. We should go like finance finance bro hard you mean? Or because I do think we're trying, right? But it's it's sometimes it's not humble, but I think many times it is humble. It's like study Bitcoin, right? Like I I I always say like the message is study Bitcoin.
(29:54) It's not buy Bitcoin. Where maybe the message should be buy Bitcoin. I mean, you have Jim Kramer on MSNBC yelling that you should buy something. So, maybe that's it. But um I think especially after FTX and stuff, people have um have a apprehension to towards that messaging. Although I agree with Brian that perhaps that could work.
(30:20) Um the the the the fiat money mindset is a very very zero sum game mindset, right? like I win, you lose. I mean, you see that with this Gary's Economics uh guy. Yes. Yes. You know, horrible takes. But he learned, you know, if I'm a trader and I make millions, there's many people that lose and that's bad.
(30:40) And he's totally right. So, I'll give him that. Right. But what he doesn't see what he what he does is also what you just said, like this just pointing like, "Oh, it's these people, they are bad people, etc." But and it was the same by the way with Occupy Wall Street like bad bad bad but the the crazy thing and that's why I say like progre people that call themselves progressive are not progressive you know it's it's laring it's walking or sorry it's talking right like it's like the fiat fiat money world is like all talk you can talk right and
(31:13) you don't have to prove [ __ ] but in Bitcoin you have to walk the walk like you have to do it right the whole proof of work ethos is like we are walking the walk we are literally dumping fiat money and we're we're exchanging it for Bitcoin. We are leaving this predatory system that is the source of everything that anyone that's now listening like anything that you would want to fix in the world is broken because the money is broken, right? Like the money creates the incentives for people to do stuff and eventually there's certain outcomes that
(31:43) you don't like or would want to see ch uh changed, right? But as long as you don't understand that it's the money, you will keep propping up the money that you hate without knowing. And the only thing you need to do, and it's so [ __ ] simple, right? You just ditch the money. You just move to the other money that they cannot mess with.
(32:09) And I feel like, and I also don't know how I ended up here. Maybe that's how my brain is wired and I'm lucky. But like I feel like all the social justice people, you know, or or all the stuff with with Occupy Wall Street, like it's it's all based on emotion. That's why I could just call it laring. Like it's just it it's like top top layer of annoyance or emotion that they acted upon.
(32:32) But it feels like they didn't do research as to yeah, what am I actually protesting? Like why does this system exist? Like how it exists, where does that come from? you know the whole you know Robert Breedlove what is money uh as the defining question of our of our time you know like they they didn't go further than m person bad pointing or you know putting up a tent whatever um and I feel like that with Bitcoin you can actually make that action right like I actually think we should talk more about that like so maybe we can follow Brian's strategy but I think just
(33:03) talking about like you can do something which is very simple you just exchange one money for another money and then you just wait and and see what happens because what will happen is that they will restrict you from using this bad money to buy this new money there. They will close the doors.
(33:23) They will ask you what you're going to use it for. They will restrict the cash money and all these things. And then is the moment that you have to wake up and understand that you are right about this predatory fiat money and that you should get more people in moving to this other thing because that's really what what brings change, right? But while I'm talking I think like yeah that sounds too good to be true and I know it sounds too good to be true but I do believe that it's true.
(33:50) It's just that it's just that simple. Yeah. I think what you're saying there is people need to recognize that they have agency with Bitcoin. Yes. And I think whether it's social justice warriors or people who are on the other side of the political spectrum when a particular party is in power u around the world like the the solutions to the problem is we've seen it here in the United States over the last 10 years with the flip-flop from Trump to Biden back to Trump which is if only we're in we're in power like we'll we'll make the right
(34:24) decisions it'll make everybody's life better. We again another thing that we've seen time and time again throughout our lives is that it doesn't matter who gets in the office. The system is architected in a way that it cannot be fixed. And the marginal changes that are made are simply retaliatory to the the party that you're replacing.
(34:47) and you just have this flip-flopping of different rulers with different rules that really do not solve the core of the problem, which is that we've messed up the money. Whereas Bitcoin, you just opt into and you don't have to worry about uh a different party coming in and changing the rules and uh you you you opt into something that cannot be controlled.
(35:10) And that actually has a benefit for everybody no matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on or what your sort of economic status is. Even if you are poor, if you're adopting Bitcoin, it is working in your favor over time. I love that you say opting in, right? Um because I say people are forced to use a currency in a country.
(35:34) You're literally forced just because there's no other option. But there what I what I've come to believe now is that what I find so strange is that there aren't receipts right there. There aren't receipts from the government that's forcing you to to use a certain currency that that is actually the best thing to do.
(35:57) You know it it it feels like we are enchanted or you know I think enchanted is probably the right word. We're enchanted by fiat money. Everyone just says money, you know, but if you ask 10 people for what is money, there's 10 different answers. And when you just said like, yeah, different rulers and their rules I'm thinking about there are proposals that I sometimes see in in the in the US where they say we're going to combat inflation by giving everyone an extra $1,000, you know, something like that.
(36:23) And then I think like wow these people have no they don't even know you know like the the people that other people are looking up to like they don't even know what what um what money is. And I think that's how deep the enchantment goes. You know that's also why the what is money question is such an insanely big question that feels stupid or dumb like yeah why why would we ever question that? But in a funny way, that's the whole point.
(36:58) The fact that you never do is kind of like a signal for you because people do see that the receipts are missing, right? Like how we are old enough or well I'll talk for myself that I can say something like well 20 years ago you know I saw this and this in my country. I don't I don't think my country got better in 20 years. I actually think we went back in in quality in in in availability of of housing for example, quality of health care and stuff like that where in my mind towards the future everything gets gets better but I'm old enough now
(37:36) to see that you know from 17 to 37 it some things actually got worse which is strange as I'm living in one of the richest countries in the world you know and again maybe That's how the brain is wired. But I find that very very um strange like there that's the receipt I have and and it's a negative receipt in that sense.
(37:59) What's up freaks? Stop asking how to value Bitcoin. Start asking how to value everything else in Bitcoin. Unchain and strive became Swami's asset management firm just released a new report called repericing the economy in Bitcoin. It introduces a Bitcoin denominated DCF model and shows what happens when you revalue equities like Apple using Bitcoin instead of dollars.
(38:19) This isn't just a thought experiment. It's a framework for capital allocation. Read it now at unchained.com/tc. That's unchained.com/tc. Well, I think that's the discombobulating nature or just condition of our generation. It's like, look at us. You're all the way across the world. I'm looking at you on a computer screen.
(38:42) I'm getting your voice piped into my ears automatically. It is inarguable that technology has certainly advanced to a point where it is better and you the services you can hop on your phone and have a car come pick you up in minutes. You can order food and have it delivered to your house in minutes. You don't even have to interact with with the driver. You pay it shows up.
(39:06) They leave it at the door. You don't even have to answer the door for them to to do the cash exchange like we used to do with pizza deliveries growing up. And you see things like this here in Austin. We have Whimos. We have self-driving cars all over the city. My boys are obsessed with them. We were counting them.
(39:25) Uh that's become the new game in our cars, counting how many Whimos we see on the road and on the way home from wherever we're returning from. Uh and it is inarguable this is incredible advancement of technology and human productivity. But the other side like the real economy of like having to actually go buy stuff that solves the problems that exist in Maslo's hierarchy of needs is becoming harder and harder.
(39:51) So you have this like juxtaposition of this incredible advancement of technology and productivity but also rising costs that make it harder for the things that actually contribute most to quality of life. And I think that that acts as like somewhat of a societal facade that people can look around be like wait everything is getting better.
(40:16) Like look at all this technology. I had to hit star 69 to figure out who was calling me. 20 years ago or [ __ ] 30 years ago at this point. But now I I have a thought about this because I think it's great you're summing up like these things and these things are incredible, right? Like first time that we had a camera phone and we or like a camera phone that could make videos.
(40:38) The videos were pixelated as hell, right? But we could see through them, you know. Um that's also why what I meant like if we would see a pixelated video right now like today, we would kind of be okay with that. like we would be able to see through the pixels, right? Where maybe younger people are just uh um they want to have 4K all day, right? But but we could be we would be able to see through that.
(41:02) But you are summing up all these things and then I'm I'm thinking yes, we have all these things but imagine where we could have been. Mhm. Right. Because in essence the fiat money stifles innovation like we are measuring increased productivity of technological advancements which is deflationary. We have the the you know here's the book the the price of tomorrow by Jeff Booth.
(41:27) It's a very logical um uh definition right like technological advancements eventually are deflationary everything you know prices go down and technology becomes more accessible. We have this crazy superco computer here for $1,000 where you know the first computer that that was uh you know thousand times less or I don't I don't even know probably more you know that was a few million had to be loaded up in an airplane like we see we do see technological advancements so don't don't get me wrong but imagine where we could have been and I I just
(42:01) googled 1960 future outlook prediction. I just googled it. I clicked on the first thing that's in uh on Reddit. It says major newspapers prediction in the 1960s. Why I'm doing this is because you know you know all these old pictures or even the Jetsons, right? Like uh the the ideas about the future in the 1960s '7s ' 80s and '90s were wild, right? Like when they talked about the years 2000, 2010, you know, like crazy flying cars, etc.
(42:33) And so I just clicked on a random link, but I think it's very interesting. This is uh from the time in February 1966. By the year 2000, the machines will be producing so much that everyone in the US will in effect be independently wealthy with government benefits. Even non-working families will have by one estimate an annual income of 30 to 40,000 in 1966.
(42:58) How to use uh leisure meaningfully will be a major problem. Okay, this other one is from New York Times n 1967. By the year 2000, people will work no more than 4 days a week and less than 8 hours a day. With legal holidays and long vacations, this could result in an annual working period of 147 days on and 218 days off.
(43:22) So over 50 years ago, these people were talking about how increased technology would bring us abundance like this guy in this book is talking about. But we aren't there. People are working more for less and and getting by less literally, right? Because in the 1960s there, you know, we have all these memes of one one income families with, you know, just a a teacher with a with a nice Chevrolet in front of the door and a home and three children and a wife at home. That was the ' 60s.
(43:54) And now everyone works and the kids are at kindergarten and people are are putting ends together at the end of at the end of the month. Like, we're nowhere near where these people thought we would be. And yeah, that I just find fascinating, you know, like you you everyone should ask themselves the question like why why is that? Are we dumber? Don't we have technology? Like it all these questions are no and and the real answer is it's the money.
(44:23) Well, and going back to the money question like what is money? It is astonishing. Maybe it's the INTJ. I don't even know if I'm INTJ. I'm just going to assume I have some of those traits. But literally, it's all throughout pop culture. Rap songs all about money, stacking racks, like literally on everybody's minds. Like, how do I make more money? How do I like that was the part of the script was like, if you go to college, you get the degree, you're going to get a job with a six figure salary.
(44:52) You you'll have a starting salary, but you'll move up to six figures uh pretty rapidly by the by the time you're in your mid20s, and then you'll be set. And I back in high school, the thought of making $100,000 was like, "Oh, I'm going to make a lot of money." And today, the thought of making a $100,000 is like, "I'm not making enough money.
(45:10) " Like, how quick I think people don't appreciate how quickly that like six figures like that was the that was one of the tropes when I was in high school. It's like, you get a job of six figures, you made it. Now it's like you need mid six figures to have quote unquote made it now as a salary. And that's only 12 years since I graduated college is not a long time but again going back to the idea that like every sort of decision not every decision but a lot of the decisions that people make revolve around how do I make more money to make ends meet or to actually be able
(45:40) to invest to be able to build the or excuse me buy the house that I want to live in and and build a family and like literally many of the decisions I don't know how many a day are factored around money and yet nobody questions what it actually is. It's literally People still talk about six figures, right? Like it's that I think that's a great example like that narrative is still strong.
(46:06) People still talk like that because their parents talked like that, you know, still if we if we stay with millennials. Um yeah, that's that's I think what is part of the what is sold to us. Yeah, if you make 100k uh yeah, that sounds like a great deal. But there's many people like you said that that that earned that or even more that are um that are not living as comfortable as they as they thought. Right.
(46:33) But I think yeah again I think that is also part of the enchantment. It's just that narrative and just getting out of that is probably the biggest hurdle in order to eventually end up with Bitcoin, right? Like you have to get to some point where you're like man something isn't working. I don't know what, but I'm going to I'm going to do some research.
(46:55) I'm going to figure it out. And I think the what is money question, you know, I I I now see, you know, we can go into that, but I now actually have an idea about what money is. Like before I just used the word money and I didn't even realize what it was. And it was actually last October. Um I was in the US and uh I remember the first evening when I was in my hotel.
(47:20) It was actually funny. I was in Miami. I just went to grab a quick bite, like a burger and a and a and a and a virgin mojito. And I remember paying like $45 or something like crazy. And I was like, man, $45 units for like a burger and and and a virgin mojito. And like in my mind, you know, in my currency or just in my in my mind in general, like a burger is 15 units or of any currency, you know, like 15, I don't know.
(47:51) always in my in my mind. But I think this one was like 30 or something or 28. And I remember going back to my hotel room and just having like a bill in my hand and just just sitting and looking at it and thinking like, yeah, this is something that I talk about a lot that I think about a lot. You know, it's connected to Bitcoin and Bitcoin is the better money, etc.
(48:13) And then I I I was looking at the bill and then I saw like there's there's there's like a disclaimer on the bill and it says like this note is legal tender for all public and private debt you know in the United States of America or something like that and then I was like and mind you this is in October then I was like holy [ __ ] like the the paper even says that the paper does itself doesn't have value right so the one that has a one on is not worth more or less than the one with 100 on it.
(48:46) Like it's just it's just an abstract representation of debt, which is just astonishing. You know, if if you're talking about, you know, stacking racks, you know, like how everyone talks in in the rap videos, you're you're stacking nothing like literal paper and and you're Yeah. enchanted to a certain degree to think that that actually represents value like like time and energy or productivity from another person that created something that you are giving these pieces of paper to.
(49:17) And so even if you're into Bitcoin for a long time and you have a podcast and you moved most of your wealth into Bitcoin, you can still learn that mind-blowing fact. You know, I I just was like, it's just crazy. It's staring you in the face and people are just using it. You know, like that that I think is the the challenge that that we are generally up against here.
(49:40) Not only using it, but coveting it. As you were describing that, I was thinking of, you know, the rapper 6969, is that his name? He's got the crazy color hair. Yeah. He's got he's got like 69 tattoos all over his face. Yeah. Yeah. Uh he's famous for making these videos where he's got like five Lambos in his in his driveway and he just like opens up one of the front trunks and he's got stacks of cash there and he's like flaunting it like there's another 100. There's another 100.
(50:06) And it's hilariously poetic because it's the epitome of the high velocity trash economy with this abject idiot who looks like a [ __ ] fool. Yeah. sort of flaunting that he's got these with millions of followers with these debt notes like yeah you you this is what you wanted. You want to stack thisunded and thisunded and as you just mentioned if you actually read the bill it's like you're just stacking representations of debt that the government owes somebody at the end of the day.
(50:35) That's the other thing like we're coming to this point. I'm sure you're observing from uh across the pond that we're at a pretty critical point here in the United States where it's becoming abundantly clear that the debt that is represented by these these dollars is becoming a problem that the people that we owe the debt to want to solve or are forcing us to to confront.
(51:01) Today I talked to someone who said the US debt is at an all-time high forever. Then I thought that's so good. That's so good. You know, and we saw last week Scott Bassen says like the US will never default because we will keep on raising the debt ceiling. Like again, it's just staring you in the face.
(51:21) It's literally staring you in the face. Like there are no I also say this about Bitcoin like Bitcoin is an asymmetric opportunity based on publicly available information. Like all the information is literally out it's out there you know about the bad money and about the better the better money like you you can find all this information but whether it does something to you you know well we we discussed this but that is something that the individual has to decide but I think all the information is is out there and and like what you said I think
(51:52) the model of America is brilliant you know you just export the inflation and you buy also buy real energy from the ground with paper that you just create and put a number on that yeah that that that's the most brilliant scheme in in the in human history probably. But once people figure out that if they get paid this paid back the the this debt in nominal terms that what that unit represents actually buys them less which is becoming increasingly clear at an ever increasing rate then yeah who's going to buy that
(52:34) debt right and I think if you want to think about the question what is what is money maybe the second question is Yeah. What am I counting? Like what what is the what are the characteristics of the unit that I'm that I'm counting? Right. And once you yeah kind of pull on that thread and then realize okay I can count in the numbers.
(52:59) But if the so I can have more numbers and the graph can be green or have a little uh positive result. It doesn't mean that the amount of units that I have actually buy me more real things. And I think once this is understood on a nation level, which sounds ridiculous to say because I would expect that the people running a country and buying foreign debt would actually understand what they are doing.
(53:31) But I've also come to the conclusion that many many don't or else they would have stopped buying US debt uh a long time ago. I think maybe that's too rational but I I I think that's just it you know like uh I think we both know um sorry I think we both know Leon Wanku. Mhm. He talks a lot about real estate and Bitcoin, right? But he has a masters in economics, maybe even a double masters in economics, right? And he told me, I've never learned what money is.
(54:04) Like I was calculating, I was counting, I was doing all these things, but only later I started questioning what what is money? So if someone with a master's in economics doesn't know what money is, like how does the average ple figure this out, you know? And maybe if we get back to like what is the core message or the things that we should talk about I think is definitely this like that that is the bamboozlement like you you are using something or believing in something or you have the aspiration of stacking something that literally has
(54:39) zero value and that sounds ridiculous I know like in my mind like if I think about myself 5 years ago I think it's crazy I'm saying this now you know but I mean that's the conclusion we end up with I think. Yeah. And I love the way Matthew Mazinius describes it. It's Wickenstein's ruler.
(54:58) It's like what's me like we're we've gotten to the point where money's become so debased. It's like what's money me is money actually measuring anything or the the increase prices actually measuring how much the money is being debased? Like that's that's the predicament we find ourselves in.
(55:17) And I I guess getting into like once you understand that that money really isn't measuring anything, prices are actually telling you how much the money is getting to base by. And how do you get back to what money should actually be, which is a measurement of human productivity and yes, work. And and I think that's a nice way to tie it in with, you know, what what is your outlook on the future? How do you prepare on the future? Like how I look at it now is everyone's future is uncertain like literally like you don't know how much time you have. So your time is
(55:53) absolutely finite. The energy that you can expend in this time is absolutely finite which is your productivity right like how much can you produce by expending this energy in the time um that you have and so if everyone's future is is uncertain you know this is this is what safety nam says like everyone discounts the future we are all um per definition uncertain about the future so what does everyone try to do you try to lower the uncertainty towards the future.
(56:29) But if you use fiat money that's being debased at a realistic rate of like 8 9% per year, that actually heightens your uncertainty towards the future. So you are incentivized to spend all this money now. I had se Bunny tell me a great quote. He said, "You have to realize that all the money that you own right now is the most worth the most right now.
(56:53) " I thought it was mind-blowing like okay so if I wait a day I can already buy less like a teeny tiny bit right but but that is how the how that how that curve goes and so if you translate that conceptually to okay so if I don't spend it now I'll have less purchasing power in the future which makes me more uncertain about the future because I think I need more units like stacking like the rappers do right that is actually what drives your incentives either are doing dumb [ __ ] to make make money like stuff that
(57:27) doesn't add value. I mean the whole only fans thing or like whatever like just just just that you know even the gig economy like yeah that's what I was going to say like even jobs with more dignity like going to your 9 to5 and then hopping but I mean dude like like so respect to all the Uber Eats people like on a on a bike but why aren't there robots that do that again let's go back to the technology right like why don't we have that like why why do we force people to take on a gig that makes them like bike through
(57:56) the snow to liver some unhealthy soy slop. Yeah. Right. Like that. Yeah. I don't know. Like so anyway to go back but but that so people are are forced to spend all the money in the now to not think about the future to not prepare for the future to not build towards the future. And that is actually why you know we say in Bitcoin everything is downstream from the money.
(58:22) If if that is the incentive for you to do that today, how how are you incentivized to deliver actual value or to do something that is very profound or grand or big or or try something crazy, right? Like if you if you really want to innovate, you need time and space to figure out what to innovate.
(58:42) If it works, you probably fail and you have to iterate, right? or even if you want to I don't know create a grand statue or a cathedral or a gallery or whatever like you need time and space to to figure that out you know and I think fiat money because it heightens the uncertainty towards the future it takes those opportunities or literally the time and space away and does the opportunities away for for people to explore that.
(59:06) So instead of being incentivized to be a builder and a risk taker and and an innovator and trying out new things, just like really put your your cognitive capacity at at you know max speed basically you're incentivized to do dumb [ __ ] buy dumb [ __ ] eat dumb [ __ ] literally. And that is I think what is going on.
(59:33) And once you understand that with Bitcoin because no more than 21 million units will exist, it's absolutely finite, verifiably scarce and finite like your like your time in this world. that that that actually becomes a better measurement for you know this productivity that I think eventually you know I know people think otherwise but like I once listened to a podcast I'll I'll get back to my reasoning but the sides I listened to a podcast with Nate Hagens and Aubrey Marcus where they talked about energy and Nate Hagen says if you look around you you have to
(1:00:09) realize that everything you see cost energy to create or maintain and then so they didn't even talk about Bitcoin but that's when I realized that money is an abstract for that energy. Like if I expend my energy in time, which is my productivity right now for something for you and you give me a reward and I want to hold on to that towards a certain moment in in future time and space to spend that on something that I want, whatever that is, that also represents expended energy in time basically. And so if you then realize
(1:00:42) that the money that you're using is is leaking energy, that's that's that that's the purchasing power that you're losing towards the future. But now when we have Bitcoin, we know that that's also absolutely finite. There will never be more than 21 million. and that that is actually a far better measurement for that productivity or for that energy, however you want to call it, than than the fiat than fiat money.
(1:01:12) And so that's why in Bitcoin we obviously say one bitcoin is one one bitcoin. That's the whole point. Like if I earn one bitcoin right now, I know that it is one bitcoin in the future, but it will probably buy me more because more and more people will realize that this is not a leaky bucket or a melting ice cube or whatever the illustration is you want to use as compared to to fiat money.
(1:01:38) And so what I really love is there's a this picture of like an orange uh little pyramid that is Bitcoin and on top of that there's an inverted green uh pyramid like on top of it which is like all the all the money in the world or you know all the money that is stored in other things than Bitcoin and like that green inverted pyramid can grow to infinity basically like we see Scott Ben say but this little orange pyramid is going to stay the same and so all the productivity that could be rewarded eventually.
(1:02:09) You know, all the human productivity will be rewarded by this this orange pyramid that will never grow in size and eventually each unit. So each Bitcoin or fractions of Bitcoin will represent more productivity, i.e. buy you more in the future. And I think for me that is kind of like the case for Bitcoin because if I save the economic energy that I earned today in these Bitcoin units and I save them towards future time and space.
(1:02:41) I actually create more time and space for myself to figure out what can I do here like what am I here to do? What is the value that I can add to this world? and I will actually have the time and space to try that out and even fail and then try something new. And for me that is actually what makes me not be a nihilistic person towards the future but actually be very optimistic because I know that I can try stuff which for me for my personality has been very freeing for for my mind you know I feel like I'm mentally retired like I can I can yeah
(1:03:19) really look to the future with with a lot of positivity and enthusiasm and I hope I make it towards the future right like that is still uncertain. But creating or or having a bit more control about creating this time and space to explore like how can I add value to this world? How can I be productive? I I I think is is really great and I'm very grateful that I've been able to do that with Bitcoin. Yeah.
(1:03:44) Same. I mean, this this whole business wouldn't exist if I love that Bitcoin not only allows you to store the time you've already spent in an asset that will respect that work that you put in, but it actually buys you time in the future. And again, the I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. like the 18 months leading up to the beginning of the newsletter, I was unemployed and I married my wife in the middle of that 18 months or actually towards the tail end of it and I was able to take the time. I was I was trying to get jobs
(1:04:21) over the course of that one and a half year period, but really was being very selective and I had the ability to be selective because I had saved Bitcoin in college and in my first couple jobs out of college and I bought myself time to sit there and think and I and that's one thing I do every once in a while is I was I was very detailed I was keeping very detailed journals just of my thoughts and particularly around Bitcoin and what I wanted to do and I had the time and space. I wasn't living extravagantly. Um
(1:04:54) was definitely living on a shoestring budget and thank God my wife she had a job and um but I was I was able to sort of subsist and live and think and really took a year and a half offended but was not like crazy stressed at any point in time cuz I had savings to dig into. Uh, and I think that year and a half really set me up to go down this path of creating this media business, getting ingratiated with um the the industry um eventually joining 1031 and Bitcoin bought me that time just by saving it when I was in college
(1:05:36) and right out of college. I have a similar experience and I mean man, how inviting is that? If if you know just just that story who who wouldn't want to do that how many people of of of our age are slaving away in some corporate job that they absolutely hate you know I yeah I don't know I think you made the case perfectly and I have a similar experience like this is what you want right and I would also say this is what you need like who has it figured out like from from my high school graduation class there were there are maybe two
(1:06:11) people that were like oh well I know I want to be a a veterinarian and then the other one wanted to be a pilot or something. Well, that's what they did and the rest switched studies, switched jobs, whatever. Like, you don't have it figured out when you're done with college or even when you're done with with um or sorry, with high school or even when you're done with college or university.
(1:06:32) Like, that that's the whole point. The whole point is that growing up is figuring out who you are and what you can do. And you know, if you're stuck and you don't have that, you know, um I think Bitcoin is the perfect way to actually create that time and space to to allow yourself to invite yourself to to figure that out.
(1:06:53) And I mean uh I think it's the same with you. It's brought a lot of quality to my life. Like I feel like I live in the now like very conscious like I I am not worried about the future more than just the uncertainty of uh yeah dying without knowing you know like that but I feel like it's more the natural state of uncertainty around the future rather than the manufactured state of uncertainty around the future that that field money brings. Yeah.
(1:07:22) Now, one one um quote that always stuck with me, had a really good English teacher uh in high school. I'm sure not the only one. Many people read David Throw, but the mass of men lead lies of quiet desperation. It's always been in the back of my head like, how do I avoid being one of the mass one of the masses leading one of those lives of quiet desperation? and and Bitcoin is certainly a tool that can get you out of that that rat race cuz that quiet desper that quiet desperation. Yeah.
(1:07:54) Uh I think particularly today stems from the being forced on the hamster wheel of trying to keep up with fiat money. Mhm. I think I have a tweet that says something like fiat let or sorry bitcoin lets you get out of the red race and start walking your own path right like it's becoming more sovereign autonomous conscious like you can make the decision to have any pace you want in any direction that that you want and it's because you are protecting yourself with Bitcoin um from the from the with your rules, you know, from the rulers of this
(1:08:38) other money that actually force you to stay in a race that you probably don't even understand, you know, and um Yeah. I think that's why we both do what we do, don't you think? Like this is more people should know this, don't you think? I do. Yeah. What are your what are your thoughts? What are you saying? Do you think more people are coming around to this? like how do you think things progress from this point in time specifically? Um, I've been thinking a lot about I I I I think there's a huge and and I don't think that's random, but
(1:09:09) I think there's a huge convergence of Bitcoin and AI, you know. So, if if we talk about like like we talked about productivity, um, I think the internet was the democratization of knowledge and I think AI is the democratization of u doing something with that knowledge. show of productivity basically.
(1:09:29) And so if anyone can build anything and any autonomous agent or any robot can copy any other autonomous agent or robot, you know. Um I mean I can take a picture of this bottle now and put it in AI and it will reverse engineer a 3D render and I put it in some machine and like tomorrow I have this bottle but made by myself, you know.
(1:09:54) And I I think that is an everinccreasing development that is just not going to to stop. And so I think there's a few things that you can think about there like how are you going to measure those exponential technological gains which are increasingly deflationary. Are you going to measure those with uh inflationary money? I think you would offset a lot of uh um wins there like a lot of um progression there.
(1:10:29) So I think Bitcoin is the measurement for value, for increased productivity, especially in an AI age. But also in the AI age, like I mean last week I've been down a deep deep rabbit hole, you know, spending till like 4:00 a.m. just just [ __ ] around with AI and cursor and trying to build stuff. And I'm just realizing so many jobs like strict knowledge and kind of like logic type jobs uh they are dead you know those functions are are are are dead those rules are dead and I think that will be a big shock eventually for the people that that have these roles but I think
(1:11:10) the the the thing I'm trying to say more is like you need to be aware of that like this is where it's going. So, how do you protect yourself in an age of AI where you are going to be forced to take time and space to figure out how am I going to function in in an age of AI and yeah well as as we just talked about I think Bitcoin is the perfect way to do that.
(1:11:39) you just shared your example as well. And so I think that is how people can protect themselves from that incoming productivity shock, layoff shock, uh disappearance of jobs shock, I would say, you know, like it's it's going to be agents and AI and robots everywhere. And um maybe that's even another argument as to why, you know, millennials should focus on Bitcoin.
(1:12:03) Like if you think you're going to work for the next 30 years of your life, like think again. It's think again. It's astonishing what's I think we're falling down similar rabbit holes. I was up till 2:00 a.m. last night working. It's uh Logan, don't worry. You're keeping your job. But um the uh it's insane what what's happening.
(1:12:26) The robot is going to be called Logan, I think. and and most people are completely I mean I think they're aware that there's something happening but I'm curious I would be curious to know how many people have actually touched this stuff and actually gotten past the surface layer of just prompting chatbt and I'm yeah and trying to I'm still working on something but you know if if you listen to the the you know the guys from Silicon Valley they say like we're going to see 100 years of innovation in in like 10 years. That I don't even know
(1:13:01) how to judge that, but it sounds insane in general, right? Like that's that's that's a big thing. But if you just think about the concept of okay so if if AI is like the enablement or like productivity layer of all the information that ever existed and ideas in general like new ideas are just combinations of information is a combination of information and assumptions right and that is what generally makes up an entrepreneurial idea or just an idea in general but if the AI has access to all the information then you could say that any idea is it
(1:13:41) already exists basically. So once you have an idea and you think it's unique and no one is is doing it yet once you put it out in the world the the the concept the the information that makes up the idea is is also out there and then it'll be copied. That's kind of how I view it. So on one side I do think this will increasingly lead to abundance in a sense that any technology will be available to anyone.
(1:14:16) You know even the LLM models that are private now in a sense that you have to pay for them will be public in 5 years and accessible to anyone. Right? So that that's kind of how I view it. Like everyone will eventually have the opportunity that you know we are lucky enough to have now because we can pay 20 bucks a month to have chat GPT or whatever whatever tool.
(1:14:47) So like what is IP? Like what are ideas you know like that just just just going down that kind of like line of thinking. I'm just thinking like that you can start something but it's going to be dead in a year you know in a sense that everyone will be able to use the same technology and someone open sourced it and then you know um it's just it's just copied everywhere.
(1:15:08) So I think that's where it's it's going. And so to either figure out how to make money or provide for your life, I think you have to go on a more inward journey and and you need space and time for that to yeah just figure out like what am I here to do? Like what do I like to do? What am I good at? like what what types of skills do I have and stuff like that.
(1:15:38) And so I I think why AI and Bitcoin are converging is because I think AI will force more people into uh after an initial shock into a stage where they have to figure out like okay what what am I what am I going to do for the rest of my working life you know if that is even a thing you know so I think it's really it's it's difficult to to think about that but I have an um so I I went down you I went down the rabbit hole like last last week, last two days, I think I've slept like fiveish, six hours just up at night trying stuff because I had I had
(1:16:14) an idea for so so to illustrate like how fast things can go. Like I'm not a cyber security expert. I don't have a computer programming background. Like none of that. But like I'm a I'm a digital product. Like I'm a product guy. So I can think in in products in flows and use cases and stuff like that.
(1:16:30) And so I had an idea for like a Windzip type app, but where you secure your files with with Bitcoin. I've had that idea for longer, but I don't know why, but I I I saw a video about AI and all this stuff that I just mentioned, and I was like, yeah, how do you protect digital secrets in an age of AI? Hm.
(1:16:53) and and you know then that idea came back and I just started messing around with um with AI and just asking questions and challenging and just going through that. Anyway, after like 5 hours I realized that I was building uh file encrypting protocol on top of Bitcoin. And once I got a little bit deeper into that, it started telling me like, oh, this is actually pretty profound.
(1:17:20) like this doesn't exist and then I went on and on and like I put it on Twitter and people called me gullible because the AI is very nice to me etc. But I kept on just working and challenging and you know trying to be rational and and figuring it out like I I I want to make it very functional. And now I'm at a point after 12 hours with working with AI I don't even know where it says like if the protocol that you came up with that doesn't exist in the world if that works at scale you you have um like a top 10 cyber security invention.
(1:17:56) And I'm like really, you know, I'm looking at that and I'm like really is this like am I doing this? You know, but honestly I think it's working. I'm almost done. But imagine like e even if I even if it works or not, but just imagine that someone is going to make technological discoveries in a time that is just so far away or or how do you say is is so much less than what people are doing now, right? like just cryptographic research or what just research that took years is now able to be done in hours or in in weeks, you
(1:18:34) know, and I think we're going to see examples of that where just people that are totally not connected to a certain field just by their way of thinking are going to make really big discoveries and I think that is only going to accelerate. So that's a that was a very long answer, but I think the word is accelerate.
(1:18:55) Like it's just going faster and faster and faster. And that's why it's a problem for you, especially as a millennial to figure out, okay, what do I do in that age? Like how do I protect my wealth in that age? How do I prepare for for that age? And well, I I I think the answer is Bitcoin in my opinion, but um it's coming at us at an increasingly uh faster speed.
(1:19:21) And that combined with the fact that fiat money is being debased at an increasingly faster speed, like those two things are an insane signal for you to study Bitcoin. I think agreed. It's it's aligned with the newsletter I sent out this morning, which is like the combination of AI and Bitcoin is going to be the strongest combined force of leverage over the next decade.
(1:19:45) Like if you're building these tools, you're putting them out there and you're able to monetize them, you should be cycling any profits you have into Bitcoin to compound the productivity gains that you're providing with tools built by AI or AI tools that are the the output of what you build. And then you're funneling that into Bitcoin and you're riding the adoption wave as it's happening as these governments are printing as more people are waking up.
(1:20:16) Yes. To Bitcoin. Like the compounding factors of combining AI to build provide the the market with a product that you can hopefully monetize and then shoveling that into Bitcoin is probably the smartest play you can make right now. But then that to your point like does IP even exist? Is this going to be replic replicable? Is there a small window of time where you can actually monetize this? Who Well, who knows? Yeah, I I it's interesting, right? Like on one side that sounds like an opportunity and on the other side it
(1:20:48) sounds like a necessity. Like those are the things you should actually be doing today like figuring out like how am I going to have an edge with with AI? But I do think that the window for new ideas or new companies unless they're like extremely profound companies are not going to exist for a long time because it's just all going to be copied.
(1:21:12) And to give an example, right, so I'm I'm I'm working on this protocol and I think I think it could actually be a discovery. And so I decided, okay, I'm going to feed certain elements of what I'm building, but not telling everything, just just, you know, the abstract in the beginning and just a maybe 20 sentences.
(1:21:34) I'm going to feed that to DeepSeek that has no history of me, you know, working on this idea, whatever. And I said something like, you know, someone I know is working on a paper and he sent me this preview. What do you think it is? And dude, it was like 85% right in the one shot, like the first reply, it just reversed engineered almost the entire concept already. And that really shocked me.
(1:22:04) I was like, "Wow, that's that that is it's insane. No context, nothing, right?" And yeah, again, this is the worst that AI will be ever today. You know, tomorrow it's already better. So if if that is the case, like yeah, what is an idea? Like what is it? What what even is that? You know, is it? Yeah.
(1:22:25) That just IP is gone. I think it's fun, huh? Yeah. Then you get into like the whole singularity like if you or AGI, ASI, are we creating the optimi? Yeah. The optimistic part of me hopes we'll get there because I I I do think that could like bring in like a new renaissance, right? Like so if there's real abundance and there's like base layer comfort or you know stuff is taken care of in our lives just the basic needs in a in a quality degree yeah like what do you do with your time and space you know I I think people are either
(1:23:07) going inward they're going to be more spiritual and be like okay what what is this who am I what am I what is this meat suit etc like why am I here and I think people will go outward you know that That's what I think also about like all the ancient civilizations, they always looked at the stars, right? And for me or or just like the the grandness that that that we live in.
(1:23:30) And that sounds very logical to me like if you if you came from being a hunter gatherer, like surviving to having a little surplus time, my rational mind goes to the first question would probably be like they look up at the sky and be like, "What the [ __ ] is going on here?" like what what is this like you know why does the sun go up and go down and then like the leaves grow and then they fall off and then there's snow and then there's sun again like what what is that you know so I feel that if we really go to a place of singularity
(1:24:02) um where the technology basically takes care of us and I know that's a very positive outlook then that is where we can get like I I love that idea but on the other side I I listen to a podcast it's on uh um diary of a CEO. I think it went live yesterday or the day before. It's like a like a group uh conversation about AI and I don't know if it's Eric Weinstein who says like do do you know that I can like unleash an agent today that's going to stalk Marty Bent for the rest of his life. Like you can do that today
(1:24:38) literally. And it's just gonna go out there and figure out who you are, where you are, what you like, whatever. Like it's gonna it's gonna ruin you, you know, like like you can do that today. I don't know why. Well, they said it on that podcast, but like you can do that today, which is insane. It's insane. Like that's that's a very bad use case, right? So I think there's a very thin line between using AI and accepting it towards like a singularity type point in a very positive way but also just like the total destruction like I I'm not I'm
(1:25:12) not I I don't I don't know what the answer is but I think like those those two sides are very clear like they are both very clear both very tangible like you can do yeah it's wild very scary and I think it's scary because we are using it, but we really don't understand it. So there's there's even far fewer people that actually understand like how does the AI like how does that work? Yeah.
(1:25:39) And because it's changing at such a pace like even when you think you understand it, it's like oh here's another advancement. You got to completely reorient your your understanding of this now. Yeah. So I think a a lot of minds will be blown. I think it's a shock. It's going to be a weird very weird period, but I do think that Yeah.
(1:25:58) again like anchored to Bitcoin. I think we'll be fine. Um yeah, but I wonder about the rest of the world. So I don't know if that's a positive note to come to a conclusion on this conversation, but I mean it's I think it's realistic and maybe that ties back to what we talked about you know what about getting into Bitcoin.
(1:26:18) You have to be realistic about what is happening in the world and you have to act upon that or else someone else will and that means that you are not an actor but you are a subject in that sense. Yeah. This is not the time to stick your head in the sand and say I'm just going to hope for the best and not pay attention. No.
(1:26:35) No. Especially it's like somebody with young kids and it's like again like this story I was telling earlier like we're riding in the car and they're pointing out ways. I'm like holy [ __ ] And it's like it's crazy to me that they're just they have this like natural attraction to the Whimos specifically and they're like calling them out.
(1:26:58) It's like it's like my caller ID story. Like I remember when we got Color ID and I think my oldest at least he's at the point where he'll have long-term memories and we'll remember a time before Whimo and after Whimo and I think he'll have just projecting 15 years forward into his life like he'll laugh about like oh I remember when I thought Whimos were cool and if Yeah.
(1:27:22) Which going to be the Motorola Razor for them or something. Yeah. Exactly. Think about that. Wow. That's Yeah. But even that right like for your children again like a like a millennial topic right if you have young children ev everything and I got this from a recent uh Tim Ferrris and Chris Saka conversation they talk about you also AI in the future and you know Tim Ferrris asks Chris Saka like would you send your kids to law school or or notary school or finance school and he's like [ __ ] no like that's all dead and Tim is like okay you know he's
(1:27:54) like no you got to like whatever you think education is, if you have young children, just throw that out the window. Like education, career, [ __ ] like that is is done. So if you have children that that are just like early age or like in the middle of of primary school, like anything about their adult adulthood that you thought about before is just like you can just throw that away. Yeah. No, it was it's funny.
(1:28:27) I was having uh this exact discussion with my wife in the car this morning. We went on a walk around the lake then went to get coffee on the ride to coffee. She was like, "Oh, I wonder if we're moving back to Philadelphia." She's like, "I wonder if our oldest will come back down to UT." I'm like, "Honey, like I don't know if like college is going to exist in the state that it does today." Yeah.
(1:28:48) Like by the time he's in college. She's like, "Ah, I don't know. Maybe it'll be like a luxury good." I was like, "I don't even know about that." Like no because like why would why would a human like a flawed human why would they teach you? It's the same like why would a flawed human create your money dictate your money? It's the same principle of thinking in my in my mind, right? Like why if I know something better exists, something way more um knowledgeable and and and all these things like why why would I go for the other option, you know, like it's just
(1:29:24) um eventually I think that's a rational decision, but like how to handle that also for us as the parents like how do we handle that? I don't know. That's maybe too much for now, but I think that is that is I I think that's going to ask a lot of us. But again, you need time and space to figure that out, right? So again, like for me, I don't know, maybe that sounds boring, but this is a Bitcoin podcast.
(1:29:45) Like that ties back to Bitcoin, right? Like the time and space you need to [ __ ] prep for the future and and secure yourself in the future is is going to be immense. And if you don't um prepare for that, then I mean, yeah, I'm not preparing in any other way. So I don't know what would happen. I cannot imagine you prepare in another way.
(1:30:05) I I think perhaps that's the road to serve them and then and then CBDC's and stuff like that like the government will take care of you. Maybe it's going to be a dichotomy like that and we'll be sitting in the citadel and overlooking at you know I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
(1:30:21) It's it's uh I think it's very unpredictable. I like you know talking about it but I I think it's just very very unpredictable. So I what works for me is just tying it back to today. like what can I do today? And that's just [ __ ] around just trying this out, learning about it. Like how does this work? How can I, you know, challenge my mind or train my mind or whatever to like work with this? Then obviously Bitcoin and then yeah, just uh yeah, focus on the kids basically.
(1:30:51) I just, you know, figure it out for them as well. help them guide into I mean even now like I I don't know how old your kids are but like what they're learning before 10 is going to be like dead when they're 20. You know what I mean? Like their context of the world is is is old. Yeah. When they're 20, right? Like it's non-existent.
(1:31:15) It's going to be non like it's not going to be the thing that they think the world is. That's not what it's going to be. No. So yeah. No. And I um I think about this a lot. You have to lean in. So you have to test the tools. You have to Yes. Yes. understand what's happening. Touch, feel, see.
(1:31:37) And then the going down like painting an optimistic maybe ending on an optimistic note. Like I'm I'd like to believe that since AI can do all this incredibly productive stuff and starting in the digital world and sort of encapsulated there. do think it's coming to the physical world too, but really shifting the focus of human work and productivity from bits back to atoms like building beautiful things in the physical world and focusing on like going back to like leisure activity like maybe we get to a point where humans have the ability to focus on their
(1:32:13) health, their bodies, their uh maybe sports are the thing of the future that that really are the sports and compet competition are sort of the the things that persist throughout time as as AI evolves because it's one of the sort of thing that is truly human like right like you're exerting physical energy to accomplish a goal as a team like obviously there will be drone races and all that stuff but I do think humans like sports I don't know I'm I'm like rambling now but like this I've always had the intuition that maybe we can
(1:32:53) shift a focus back to the physical world and focus on interpersonal connection. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because that was kind of the conclusion also with with Tim Ferrris and Chris Saka. They were like okay but what should you focus on or if you would start a company now like what should you focus on and they were so I think we are in the right place but they were like yeah it's like your your personal communication your your connections you know the human connections putting people together or having conversations that help people
(1:33:25) thing you know they were really pushing on like the community uh part and I would agree with that and and with what you said like I think that would be the most positive outcome and I think in that sense maybe also the needed uh outcome you know if if we uh if we look at fiat money and the zero sum game that that we talked about before I think this this could potentially help us be more uh cooperative and and hopefully create more like mutually beneficial systems and and and communities and uh yeah really use technology actually to help
(1:34:10) us uh thrive uh as something that uh has happened to a degree but we we could be way further along as we talked about. So maybe maybe that is what it will bring us. I I certainly hope so. Yeah. Yeah. If not for me then for the kids. Yeah. We'll find out. We'll find out. Is that positive enough? I think so. I hope so.
(1:34:33) Now I'm like now I'm like envisioning like a decade from now like me trying to convince my boys to not get chipped and like like that. Don't do that. We're part machine now. It's like am I going to be the lite millennial? Like don't do that. It's uh oh my god we're going to be the boomers in some pro.
(1:34:54) I mean if you ask Gen Z, we already are. Um Bram has been fascinating. I don't know. That's fun. Those are fun jam. I think I'm uh equally scared and excited about the future. I think that's Me too, man. Well, thanks for jamming along. It's been fun. Um, go check out Bitcoin for Millennials Freaks and I'm excited to see your protocol launch.
(1:35:17) It seems like you're pretty close. I'm going to I'm going to tell you about it when we hang up. Okay. All right. Let's hang up. I want to hear about it. Peace and love, freaks. Freaks. Thank you for listening to the show. I hope you liked it. If you did like it, please make sure you subscribe, rate, review the show. It helps us out a lot.
(1:35:33) And also, if you like these conversations, I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast. They don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company. We have the newsletter, the Bitcoin Brief. Go to tftc.io. Make sure you subscribe there. A lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast, I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter.
(1:35:55) We also have the TFTC elite tier. If you sign up for that, become a member. We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early. Logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early, become a TFTC Elite member. You will get that.
(1:36:20) We have our Discord server right now. this conversation between myself and TFTC elite tier members, but we're going to expand that. We'll probably do close Q&As with people in the industry. Uh I may be doing macro Mondays. So, join us. Go to tftc.io, subscribe, find the button in the top right corner of the website, become a TFTC Elite member.
(1:36:44) Thank you for joining us.

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