Key Takeaways

In this episode, Pascal Hügli shares his journey from Austrian economics to Bitcoin maximalism, framing Bitcoin as both a personal enlightenment and a philosophical antidote to fiat’s moral and monetary decay. Through his book Bitcoin Enlightenment, co-authored with Daniel Yung and Ricardo Salinas, Pascal draws connections between historical monetary sins, Nietzschean philosophy, and the rise of a new economic order anchored by Bitcoin. He warns of the growing influence of modern monetary theory, positioning Bitcoin as a necessary counterbalance rooted in discipline and individual sovereignty. As institutions begin to adopt Bitcoin, Pascal sees not hype but a structural shift led by individuals with conviction, who may soon steward a saner, freer financial system.

Best Quotes

“I found my Bitcoin zen.”

“The establishment of the Bank of England was the first monetary sin.”

“Cutting gold’s anchor is akin to killing God.”

“If you use a ruler to measure a table, you may also be using the table to measure the ruler.”

“Be the Bitcoiner you want to see in the world.”

“Fiat creates useful idiots; Bitcoin converts them.”

“In an MMT world, control gets tighter, because you can’t print real resources.”

“Bitcoin gives you optionality. That’s what freedom is.”

“We don’t print Bitcoin, so we must print Bitcoiners.”

“Maybe Bitcoin is here not to destroy fiat, but to make it great again.”

Conclusion

This episode frames Bitcoin as a moral and philosophical revolution, far more than just money, offering individuals a path from fiat decay to personal sovereignty and meaning. Pascal Hügli’s journey reflects the broader transformation many experience as they grasp Bitcoin’s implications, while the conversation explores the rising clash between fiat-driven systems like MMT and the disciplined ethos of Bitcoin. As institutions begin to adopt Bitcoin, the challenge becomes one of stewardship, whether principled Bitcoiners can guide this shift with integrity. Bitcoin Enlightenment serves as a beacon for those ready to understand what’s broken and how opting into Bitcoin might fix it, starting with ourselves.

Timestamps

0:00 - Intro
0:36 - Zen at ATH
6:31 - The Bitcoin Enlightenment
10:11 - Fix the money, fix the world
15:35 - Bitkey & Opportunity Cost
17:10 - Origin of corruption
21:06 - Cutting gold, killing god
29:56 - Bitcoin as a yardstick
36:28 - Unchained
36:56 - The point of the book
40:29 - Bitcoinization of finance
1:00:01 - Flag theory vs staying put
1:05:31 - Saif House

Transcript

(00:00) It was Ricardo Selenas that was all over the internet when you googled for a Bitcoiner. He's the owner of 24 companies, 170k employees all over Latin America. I'm not a banker myself. I find myself among investment managers in one of Switzerland's top banks. Does Bitcoin fix everything? I mean, where would you say the corruption of the system began? Started with the establishment of the Bank of England. Yeah.
(00:26) [Music] How can we tie tennis to Bitcoin? I think one thing you just said it's uh it's a mental battle. It's it's you're all by yourself on an island. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. How can we tie it? How can we tie tennis into Well, this is actually this is a great segue. You we were just talking about tennis.
(00:52) Wimbledon final was yesterday. Centerbeat, Alkazar, and Pascal was just explaining to me he's been getting into tennis and it's a it's a transition for you cuz you played soccer your whole life, team sport, high contact, moved to tennis, one-on-one mental battle. I feel like this is something Bitcoiners know all too well.
(01:18) the the internal mental battle. You're basically know something that most people in your immediate life do not understand or grock and you're constantly battling volleying with them. Yeah. Trying to explain why Bitcoin can lead to a potential enlightenment which you wrote a whole book about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No, that's actually a good way to segue into this.
(01:39) Yeah. I mean, the mental struggle is real with Bitcoin for sure. you know, I mean, I I've experienced it my my entire life or like my entire life, like my my the last nine years, I would say, you know, like it's it's just been Yeah, you you come across this thing, it really dawns on you and and for me, I have to say like my Bitcoin story is really because I I've been into Austrian economics. I I was really curious during my university years.
(02:06) So, it did click once I found it, which was wasn't that early, 2015ish or something, you know, when I was I think I told you last time I was in Auburn, Alabama at the Mises U summer school and and it clicked for me immediately, you know, and I was like I was Yeah, I was hooked from the first second and then obviously, yeah, just grasping everything.
(02:32) the more you get to know, you want to talk to people about Bitcoin and and they just sometimes they just don't care, you know, and then you have to sort of talk to yourself and every now and then if we have the all-time highs that people come and they ask about Bitcoin and how to make a quick buck and you're like, well, now is not actually the time I want to tell you about it.
(02:51) Why haven't you come a little earlier? And then, you know, it's just this really this struggle. And at some at some point, I was like, okay, better just stick to myself, you know, do my podcast, uh maybe do a group of people that maybe want to join me and follow along. And and and I'm still sort of here in Switzerland a small have a small following, you know, of a couple of hundred people, but they are now really interested and obviously they have have had the mental journey as well and they have have tagged along.
(03:17) But for everybody else, it's just yeah, I I feel like I could have wi-i w with the curiosity that I have, at least in in in my friend circle and stuff, I could have helped maybe other people financially, but in the end, it's also not it's not it's not my obligation, you know, if if people don't want.
(03:37) But that's the that's the thing, and that's why I I I just always tried to Yeah. be my own co coach and and learn more and and that's what tennis is about you know you just nobody you you can talk to coaches but in the end it's with every sport but with tennis particularly you know you really have to go go into the flow and at some point you feel like now now I'm getting it you know and uh it just becomes natural and so that's that's that's the amazing part about it as well yeah you reach a level of zen where you where you know
(04:11) the basics you put in your 10,000 hours and you could just sort of operate. That's where I feel like today, especially as it pertains to Bitcoin. I found my Bitcoin Zen. We're meeting at another all-time high. Currently sitting like right under $122,000 per Bitcoin, which is hard to It's not really hard to imagine when it's like, uh, we all think this day is going to come. Yeah.
(04:37) And we've been proclaiming that it's going to come for for many years, but now it's here. It's like, "Holy crap, Bitcoin's $122,000." Yeah. I mean, the excitement isn't isn't like that's what I sometimes get, you know, people who are close to me that are like, "Dude, you don't seem to be ex as excited anymore, you know, as you used to be.
(04:57) " And and obviously this is probably also some sort of marginal return or declining marginal not utility but something is like obviously when it was in 2017 and we had this first push you know where where I was involved I was yeah like stupidly even making videos to some of my closest friends you know like headbanging my head uh to the all the meme songs that we had and I pull them up every now and then on my iPhone they're Dude, what what was I doing here? And and nowadays it's like that's that's what I hear, you know, why where's the excitement? And I feel like a lot of Bitcoiner, you and
(05:34) others for sure as well feel that. It's like, yeah, it's the vindication obviously, but we're so mentally in that in this thing that we're like, yeah, it always had to come that way. It had to the fulfillment was pre-programmed, so to say, you know, and now it's actually happening.
(05:54) And so maybe, yeah, it's this meme, you know, with the candle, you go like, okay, 122K and now, let's go next alltime high when it's coming. Yeah. There's a diminishing marginal return on dopamine hits you get from uh from Bitcoin pumps over the years. That's probably it. Exactly. Yeah. You get to your zen zen state, it's like, okay, it's happening. Let's try to usher as many people onto the lifeboat as possible while we can.
(06:19) not be too pushy, but put the content out there. It is here if you want it and writing it. And that's what I mean, diving fully and transitioning fully into the Bitcoin enlightenment. Um, I'm still waiting to get my hard copy, but you guys did have uh a chapter available on uh the safe house.
(06:45) So, I read that this morning, took some notes and I guess let's just start before we jump into maybe we can talk about chapter 4, the economic murder of God. But it's the book overall. You co-wrote it with um Ricardo Selenus and um one other gentleman whose name's Daniel Yung. He's a Swiss uh fellow colleague of mine. Yeah. Yeah. So, you Daniel and Ricardo got together. How did you three connect? Yeah.
(07:11) Why? Why this book specifically? Yeah, it's sort of a a weird story. I mean, uh me and Daniel, we've been longtime friends. You know, I've been in Bitcoin. I sort of maybe orange peeled him. One of the people I I managed to orange pill because he has this natural curiosity as well. And at some point, he was like, you're in this Bitcoin thing.
(07:29) Can you tell me more? And then he he got interested himself and did his own sort of study and stuff. And so, we've just been longtime friends. And then we started our journey as digital nomads, sovereign individuals where me, my wife and him because again he was just the one really tagging along.
(07:48) We asked some other people if they would join us on this journey and he was the only one that would really uh come along and then so we went to all these different places all over the world experiencing what Bitcoin culture is like in these countries like Pakistan, Argentina, other countries and one of the countries was Mexico as well and I was googling to see if if I could interview or talk to any interesting people who are in Bitcoin in these countries you know and in Mexico it was Ricardo Selenas that obviously was all over the internet when you Googled for a Bitcoiner, a real Bitcoiner, you know, and I was like,
(08:20) "Wow, that's an interesting dude." Like, he's the owner of 24 companies still, you know, his conglomerate is 170k uh employees all over Latin America, mostly Mexico, and I think into the US as well. And so I was like really impressive that somebody like of his ranking and status could could really have the time to to to also focus on on Bitcoin and and be that knowledgeable from from what I read online. And that's why it piqued my interest.
(08:50) I reached out to him um and his team and uh had to do a couple of rounds until they sort of figured out, okay, that dude knows one or two things about libertarianism, about Austrian economics, topics he's interested in as well. And that's why he then said, "Okay, you can come to the headquarters and we we do an interview.
(09:09) " And we did that interview with him. Got sort of viral on on YouTube. Uh went really well. And so that's uh why the book was born because I then followed up and asked, "Would you be interested in in sort of co-authoring a book with us and he was like, "Yeah, yeah, sure. Let's do this." And then we had a a couple of more back and forths with him.
(09:33) In the end, we were the ones writing it, uh, putting in the hard work in terms of like really doing the typing and everything and and we just spun a lot of, uh, the sentences and ideas in the books off of his, uh, sort of ideas that he shared with us and and we were just impressed.
(09:50) Uh, even though, as I said, he doesn't have that much time on his hand with all the companies, he's still pretty well informed and and just an amazing dude. And so, uh, yeah, that's that's how it came about. And um just for us obviously a great opportunity to do something like this with with a person of his profile. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean this has been a theme or a sub theme within Bitcoin for a while.
(10:16) people like I truly believe that Bitcoin is one of the most revolutionary pieces of technology specifically monetary technology the humanity's come into contact with in quite some time in innovation on par with the internet steam engine printing press name your pivotal technological advancement over the last two millennia and Bitcoin I think stands in the pantheon of those sort of demarcation technologies and I We truly believe and fix the money, fix the world is is something we say a lot here at TFTC.
(10:51) It's outside of our studio in Austin. Bitcoin fixes. This is a very popular meme. And I think it's one that when I put out there gets the most push back. It's like Bitcoin doesn't fix everything. Like we're not going to fix if we fix the money, it doesn't mean we fix the world. There's so many other bigger problems.
(11:16) And I I agree, Bitcoin directly is not going to solve these problems. But I do think indirectly, falling back to like economics 101, positive and negative externalities exist as a concept. And I think the negative externalities that emanate from a broken monetary system do inevitably touch everything. And so if you can fix that problem at the core of the system, which is money, money is one half of every transaction, arguably the most important tool we use as humans.
(11:47) Like if you can fix that core issue and turn those negative externalities into positive externalities, you can begin to fix everything. And I think getting to that point of understanding does uh it it it sort of you need to have this enlightenment moment personally to get to that point. And before you even get to that enlightenment point, most importantly and what I can gro from chapter four from the book is you have to understand how everything got broken and the core of the system.
(12:25) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Know that's true. Maybe maybe to your point when it comes to like the does Bitcoin fix everything. I mean that's a question that I've been grappling with myself for quite some time and even writing the book you know like like really okay on what levels does it really fix things you know and maybe maybe this is something I'm still grappling with as I said you know and and and even writing the book like maybe sometimes Bitcoin get over their skis as well in in terms of what it actually
(12:59) fixes you know and and or I have to put it this way I'm I'm like I had really had to in the book as well that's what we did differentiate between different levels you know the individual one uh like where it can really for for for like individuals uh like me you and others it can really say uh like fix stuff you know and and and and help them to to turn a better life and stuff society I'm I'm with you in the sense of like if if the core foundation is really broken a lot of things emanate from that which are really bad but at the same time writing the book, doing the research, really digging deep into
(13:35) monetary history as well and kind of figuring out how how like amazingly big or even like frighteningly big the the government's um sort of uh grapple or how would I say um strangle of money has always been. That was that that's something that really impressed me as well.
(13:59) you know, money had always the state always really had this overarching hand over money and and even though there's like two stories to money, you know, with the market emerging money, governments always wanted to co-op money and they have always. And so, long story short, I'm I'm still sort of at the point where I'm like, okay, will we really be fixing it on a societal um sort of um level or or or is Bitcoin just really the tool that challenges the old system but maybe never really supplants it? But I mean, that's that's maybe a story for another other day, so to say. But that's why we also then really hard like um um separated the
(14:38) topics in the book you know that we said okay we want to talk to the individual and really show the individual what has gone wrong you know on a societal level and then how he can really save himself and then we do speculate a lot about a little bit the societal aspects and where he might be going but there we're we're a lot less sure in in in the sense of like okay hyper hyperonization will really mean that everything else, all the fiat currencies, everything will go extinct, you know, and so um yeah,
(15:08) that's that's sort of the separation we we we make in the book. But as you said, it's it's really important to really obviously then also show the individual where things went wrong and and why he's experiencing what he's experiencing, you know, like uh yeah, that's because a lot of people feel that something with money is wrong, but they just really can't really articulate and that's what we try to do as well. Yeah. Sup freaks.
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(16:31) It's called Opportunity Cost, and it helps you see the true cost of everything in Bitcoin. Convert prices to Bitcoin as you browse the web. Opportunity cost automatically displays fiat prices in Bitcoin or SATS, helping you think in a Bitcoin standard. It works on Amazon, Zillow, X, your bank account, QuickBooks. So, you can convert everything to Bitcoin. It's really cool.
(16:50) It's also 100% open- source MIT license. We don't collect any data. All of the conversions happen in your browser on your local device. It's a great way to recalibrate your life and begin thinking in SATS. Go check it out at opportunitycost.app. That's opportunitycost.app. And so if you were to try to pinpoint exactly where in chapter 4 you talk about two monetary sins which is the creation of the central bank and the abandonment of the gold standard. Mhm.
(17:25) Does the story of corruption of that monetary system start with the introduction of central banks or does it even go further back? You're mentioning government control. Yeah. Over money. Where would you say the the corruption of the system began? Well, I mean, yeah, that's that's really hard to pinpoint. And yeah, and as I said, I I believe that human beings probably also crave some sort of authority and and just some sort of fiat structure and they have always, you know, and that's what I mean when I when we go back in history. uh but it never
(17:56) could really get out of hand until maybe the really the foundation or the establishment of the central bank you know and and that's when you look historically exactly uh governments they were around they were messing with money you know with different gold currencies that they sort of debased we all know the story you know all the bitcoiners know and we we we delve into all of this and really try to show that this has been historic constant for people who might not know this, you know, culminating maybe in something called
(18:28) the great depression or the the great debasement. Sorry, that's what it was called, you know, in in England when some of the kings were really uh going full fiat already back then, you know, debasing the gold coins and the silver coins.
(18:48) And there's this interesting story actually something that we learned from Ricardo himself because he was always reciting this. It it was really Henry VIII, I think, was this king back then, you know, and and and he was debasing uh the English currency back then as well. and and people didn't know that this was happening. But then at some point they figured it out because the coins he would then really remelt them obviously and and they had like a a core which was out of copper and just sort of a silver coating and and and because they had his face on it as well on on the coin itself, there was like this little nose that came a little further apart from from from from the
(19:24) coin so to say. And when that was uh rubbing against like the bags that the money was kept in, it came off. You know, the silver coating came off. And then you saw the copper coming here, the copper nose, so to say. And that's why this King Henry VII um he g he went down as as Sir Henry copper nose.
(19:44) And that's really when when people figured it out that that he was tricking them, you know, and so uh that that was always the case. Um but it wasn't until the the foundation of uh the central bank where this really got institutionalized and we called it the first sort of monetary sin. Exactly.
(20:07) Because then uh they really found the way to to perpetuate you know to continuously stealing from the public by by having this entity that could finance wars and and then also where they could bring in the private sector as well. you know because the the central bank the bank of England was really this sort of private entity um in the beginning and it sort of merged then with the king and it was this hybrid and until today we have these discussions going on you know with the Federal Reserve in the US is it is it private is it public but it's this weird hybrid
(20:38) thing uh and and this was already the case with the bank of England and so um yeah for us this was really the the starting point because everything else followed from it you know the development of the bond market, the currency, the public currency, and it all is so instrumental in in in in making this institutionalized money printing that we have possible.
(21:04) And and so we we called it and said it's it started with the establishment of the Bank of England. Yeah. Yeah. And the second monetary sin is the abandonment of the gold standard which set us clearly down the uh civilizational civilizational path towards fiat and you put a nichian lenge on it. Cutting cutting gold's golden anchor is akin to killing God. Um so interested to hear you elaborate on that. Yeah, exactly. Well, exactly.
(21:36) I mean the first sin was the establishing of the Bank of England and this really had to then go a long way in establishing as we said uh public bond markets where you could really borrow from the public and you don't have to go to all these private people again and then you could also have the central bank like uh secretly buying up uh the bonds and everything.
(21:55) So that was all going on but obviously there was always this gold anchor remaining you know and and and with every war in the US and then also during the Napoleonic wars and stuff countries sometimes went off the gold standard because it was really this this sort of hinge you know or uh the the shackles that was holding them back and at some point they just uh went full field and that's that what we then called the economic murder of God you know in 1971 and Bitcoiners obviously know this all too. Well, but we then wanted to put a sort of a philosophical
(22:28) framing around it as well because I I studied political um philosophy in university obviously read um Nichi and was always interested in in hearing what he had to say and for me he was really uh so uh visionary in the sense that he said well he was describing what was happening.
(22:54) A lot of people think Nichi is is like an atheist and he was really against God and I don't even know if he was but I think he was just describing a system and and human beings uh were sort of fostering that and the same is with money you know um and and then he there is this book where he writes about this dude with the lantern you know that's what we quote in the book it is this guy who runs to the marketplace and he's like we killed God we killed God where will we find him what would we do and all the people laugh at that guy.
(23:19) And then he really uh rambles this amazing sort of uh text, you know, where he says, "Who are we that we wipe away the horizon with a sponge? We kill the sun, you know, no more anchor. We don't know are we going up, are we going down, are we going sideways?" And when I read this and he obviously ner himself didn't at least to my knowledge make any connection to to the money but it it all reads so clearly and you could just apply to the money you know because that's what happened when we really unhinged fiat from gold you know that that something we hear today quite often
(23:57) like okay um is be is bitcoin going up or is fiat going down we don't know you know it's it's sort of uh the price signals are all distorted and so I I think even Nietze unknowingly called it and and and the saying we we quote dstoyfski another guy you know the Russian writer who said like if if god is dead everything is permitted everything is allowed and obviously it's the same if gold is gone then fiat is full fiat and everything is allowed and then we see what springs from that you know all the all the meme coins all the shitcoin trading all the companies that
(24:34) have no value but trade at immense highly pees and stuff. So yeah, there is a philosophical angle to this for sure and that's what we tried to explore in this uh chapter 4 that you mentioned. No, it was uh I was very happy to see sort of that thread in chapter 4 when I was reading it because independently last week when the price went up to like 118 I tweeted out like this is great and the price goes up obviously it feels good as an individual Bitcoiner because you're being validated something you've been screaming for the rooftops for from myself for the better
(25:14) more than a decade now at this point like it is being validated in real time. Uh but more importantly, the price signal is a fact is a signal that other people are getting it too. We're getting closer um to the point where we're bringing back monetary sanity to the world. And I did specifically use the phrase like we're going to anchor the global economy back to reality.
(25:40) um which I think many people don't realize and they they understand it that that things are wrong and things are getting more expensive and uh even though we live in this incredibly advanced technologically advanced society with the internet we're streaming from different parts of the world right now we'll upload this in high definition later on will be distributed globally um and the cost to do so is very low but even So there are still these negative externalities that have emerged throughout society. You see them in deaths of despair. Um here in
(26:16) the United States, how unhealthy people are. Uh there's an argument to be made that some people are getting stupider. We've got birth rate decline in developed countries around the world. And it just feels like there's this this odd fe feeling that we're untethered from from reality and all these negative things are extending from that.
(26:43) But I do hope that Bitcoin adoption increasing which is evident by the price going up um does send the signal like okay this is the money we should be organizing around and if enough people do that you can anchor back to reality bring opportunity cost back to the economy and force better capital allocation decisions that that lead to um better outcomes for everybody.
(27:05) But uh and I think you guys dive into this in chapter 4 too. But then I think the best way to describe the sort of intuited knowledge that things are wrong, but you can't really put your finger on it is the fact that we live in a world that is measuring things with Wickenstein's ruler. Um which is something that you guys write about. And yes, it's it's hard to be anchored to reality when you have the measuring standard of things you're you're the the decision the the ruler that you use to measure uh the inputs uh that base that you base your decisions off of
(27:41) is constantly changing. So that leads to bad decisions at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Because of this economic murder of God, you know, because like the foundation or the monetary truth or reality was sort of murdered, we then entered this this age of monetary relativism.
(27:59) That's what we call it, you know, and that really follows from it. And it's exactly it's this Nasim Tap quote, you know, the Witkinstein's ruler. I mean, he he elaborated on this on his book and it's sad to see him nowadays [ __ ] on Bitcoin as well, but because he would be among the ones who should really get it.
(28:18) But he had this quote, you know, saying like really I have it here up unless you have confidence in the rulers reliability. If you use a ruler to measure a table, you may also be using the table to measure the ruler. the less you trust the ruler's re reliability, the more information you are getting about the ruler and the less about the table itself, you know, and and that's exactly the problem, you know, and and so it's it's really like if if you if you uh have sort of uh if you wanted to to measure the length of a meter stick by using a a rubber band, that's the
(28:51) same thing, you know, because the rubber band is just too elastic. And so you don't know in the end, okay, what is it? How long is it really? what's the right measurement and then so there's all these sort of um analogies that you can uh in the end draw I mean we had now this cover you can see you know it's really like the dark age and lightning we also had the idea of a of a lighthouse you know maybe with with Bitcoin being really in in a roaring sea because that's the other thing like uh yeah if if if you are on a roaring boat tossing in the high seas and up and down and and and then you don't really know
(29:26) okay what's up, what's down. You need some sort of lighthouse, which is Bitcoin, you know, absolutely scarce, so you can measure things against and uh yeah, it's it's just amazing that this nowadays exists and and people like you and others are building these uh I so I don't remember the name, you know, but this add-on that you can now use to to measure everything against Bitcoin.
(29:49) And I think that's that's so important for people to really figure out what's happening here, you know, and now we have it. We we can actually do this, which is amazing. Yeah. Opportunity cost opportunity cost.app if you want to add the add-on or extension to your browser. It does. It's crazy. I I've been in Bitcoin for a while now and it wasn't until I built the extension and started using it.
(30:14) Like even myself having been in it is jarring when you price everything in Bitcoin on the internet. It really does induce that sense of, okay, I need to make sure that I'm really honing in on my expenses, making sure that I'm saving in Bitcoin as much as possible. Yeah. No, and and I mean maybe just to add to this, you know, in the end, this is really the problem.
(30:38) If if monetary relativism you don't know what's happening then again a lot of things will follow from this you know and we we have this other subchapter in chapter 4 where we talk about the financialization of society also not the first to do this you know but that we just wanted to really um write on show that there's so many things which are also criticized by many fiat people people on the left you know like in terms of companies who have their their main business is nowadays not their actual business anymore but some sort of financialized department that they have and that's where they're getting all the money from you know it's so a lot of car companies
(31:14) are actually not selling cars but they are doing a sort of uh car mortgages and loans you know and that's where they get the money from or Macy's is a store that when I was in the US obviously I know it the department store as far as I know most of their money is coming from from another business which is sort of then also tied to to finance financial credit and everything, you know, and and and there's many other uh like air airlines is the best example, you know, that you can point to. Uh which is crazy and and so this is really the financialization
(31:49) and and then uh yeah, a lot of people don't see this, you know, and and they pinpoint something uh maybe superficial and don't see it for the real cause. Uh, and that's that's that's a problem that we wanted to address as well. Yeah. And something as we're diving down this thread of the conversation sometime like and that's I think that's one of the harder things being in Bitcoin is people will ask like all right like I think the one word sort of rebuttal that people have put out there that highlights this overarching question of when will we know we're on a
(32:27) Bitcoin standard or more importantly when will if it's not now when will Bitcoin be reliable as this rule ruler, right? And the one question is like, ah, I can't nobody no merchants. I can't spend my Bitcoin anywhere, so therefore it can't be money. Um, but that's something I wonder like we're sitting at $122,000 now.
(32:49) At what price point, at what market cap, at what level of merchant adoption will we know that that Bitcoin is a a ruler that can be dependable um to make long-term economic decisions about? I think for long-term savings, it's obviously dependable. Maybe it already is a better ruler than the fiat system, but during this adoption and monetization phase, how do you how do you sort of know when you've crossed the Rubicon of Bitcoin being the the standard ruler that you can be comfortable with? Does that make sense? Yeah, I know. I mean it's probably a hard question to really uh answer and
(33:25) and and and and to say on again and it goes back to the point that I was making earlier in terms of like individual wise and then society wise you know like I don't want to judge for society and it's really hard to really also extrapolate and and and really pinpoint and and say okay at this point in time maybe all of society will sort of use this ruler and they will have adopted it and and I probably I hope that this will happen But I'm just not really sure and and and I don't want to sort of miss the forest
(33:55) for the trees, you know, like all speculate about when it's going to happen in society. But but I should be and that's another quote that we have in the book, you know, like uh Bitcoin be the be the change in big like all the Bitcoiners should be the change they wish to to to happen in the world. they should something like borrowing from Muhammad Gandhi, you know, but I mean that that's what I see for myself and and I would say personally it already in in in a lot of ways is is my standard uh uh that I go by, you know, in terms of like the the easy thing that we heard with with consumption. Am I going now
(34:32) will I do that type of consumption? um will I will I consume that or will I forgo the consumption because I know I could put put it somewhere else and then also you know in terms of like a bigger stuff like a house um should I now go for this or or isn't doesn't it make sense to maybe wait another year and have a longer time uh horizon there all these type of things I mean that's where Bitcoin for me is already very very uh valuable and and my standard and the more people that adopt this uh I mean at some point
(35:10) we might reach this societal point where where it's actually there but it's probably really hard we will only only know in hindsight you know probably some historian will only know in hindsight and can then tell okay this was the time everything switched we are that sort of in the midst of it all we probably don't have the ability to really zoom out and say okay now I think it's switched and and and it's just a gradual process. You know, market is really a process. It's not like this zero or one thing. It's
(35:43) probably just Yeah. gradually still and not not that sudden, but I mean sometimes we have the sudden faces. Yeah. Like now Yeah. Yeah. No. It's similar like great wars throughout time. You don't really know that they've started once they have started. It's only in retrospect where a historian goes back and says, "Well, actually World War II started here.
(36:08) Um, World War I started here with the with the assassination of France Ferdinand." I don't think at that time it was like World War I is on. It was like, "Oh, France Ferdinand got assassinated. Things are getting heavy." And then things escalated. And in retrospect, somebody comes in, it's like, "Yep, that's when World War One started." Yeah.
(36:27) No, probably that's that's a good uh analogy as well. Yeah. At $122,000 Bitcoin, the boom is still just beginning. Are you positioned for the decade long rush? On July 22nd, Tur de Mester joins Unchained for a live session. The boom is just beginning. You'll get a full macro briefing and a brief intro to how to properly secure your Bitcoin for the long haul. Register now at unchained.com/tc.
(36:50) That's unchained.com/tc. Don't sit on this, freaks. Take advantage of this alpha. What what other like if if you were to sort of think of the book that you written and think of like the one overarching message you're trying to get through to the audience to the readers reading it. What would that be? Well, yeah, that's that's the thing.
(37:16) Uh that's what we were discussing internally as as well like what is the overarching message? I mean in the end it's probably several me messages you know uh because we we wanted to also write a book that's accessible to uh to different uh groups of people to some hardcore Bitcoiners and that's why we have some of the historic chapters in it as well you know where it really goes deep as I explained with the Bank of England and everything and so that's that's really the Bitcoin nerdy stuff and then we have chapter four where it's probably more to the average Bitcoiner
(37:49) or appealing to it as we said, you know, describing really what's what's what's happening here and and then where you can also really relate and maybe not only the average Bitcoiner but also then the average person, you know, the the the millennial, the Gen Z, these people.
(38:06) I mean, we go into all these sorts of u problems nowadays that you have that you struggle with, you know, if you are a younger person or even a millennial like me, you know, looking for housing and and do do we even get a house? you know, isn't it too expensive? But then at the same time, we also talk about, okay, is is it all that bad? You know, because that's what I'm hearing from my my boomer friends, my dad, who's sometimes like, okay, you can't complain, you know, you just traveled the world, uh, met up with this Mexican billionaire, something I could have never done, and you tell me you live in a world which is
(38:40) worse than mine, you know, and I'm like, okay, that's that's actually true. I I see what you mean. It's it's probably not that black and white. and and and so that's what we try to address as well. But but in the end I think uh the story is really comes down again to this individual um thing you know like you you can understand Bitcoin you have to understand it on a on a a foundational level also what it does to society really what it does to everything your surroundings around you that you maybe get a a better understanding of okay
(39:12) it's maybe not me it's not others it's really the game which is sort of rigged again this quote you don't don't hate the players hate the game and from there but then like okay what can I do okay I can save in bitcoin I can uh at least partly opt out and and and and live a better future and and that's what we ended on with the book as well it's not one of these books which is then everything is going to burn you know fiat fiat go to hell but it's more like ending on an optimistic note that we're saying maybe yeah bitcoin is here to make the world a better place even make fiat great again maybe that how pmically
(39:51) how we how we say it in the book and and and so um yeah we also dive into what's what's happening you know on on the banking front with with a lot of institutions getting online helping uh to build Bitcoin into their products and offerings and stuff and so um yeah that's that's what we wanted to address as well so um yeah and it's probably also in Ricardo's interest because he owns a bank himself he has the companies.
(40:21) I mean, even though he is a true Bitcoiner, he knows that there's another world which is also still spinning. Yeah. And I think two things there. Don't hate the player, hate the game is very important to recognize. Opt out of that game and into the game of Bitcoin where the rules are transparent.
(40:40) You can audit them yourselves and have a high degree of certainty that they're not going to be changed. And so you can um sort of base decisions off of the rules that set forth in that game pretty confidently. Um, then the other thing is this sort of integration of Bitcoin into the institution.
(41:02) I was happy you brought that up because I wanted to touch on that. When you consider what's happening today and what's happened, I would say over the last year and a half since the ETF's launch is you've had this different sort of archetype of new Bitcoiner come to market, which isn't an individual. It's typically a corporation uh or an institution uh that is made up of individuals but but operates on a completely different order of magnitude in terms of uh capital flows and just access to capital that can flow into Bitcoin. So like on that note with what's happening right now
(41:34) obviously here in the United States Trump administration seems very keen on fostering the Bitcoin industry in the United States. uh executive order for a strategic Bitcoin reserve. Nothing's been passed and enshrined into law yet, but they're saying they want to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible.
(41:57) Obviously, the trend of Bitcoin treasury companies, people following in Michael Sailor and strategies wake uh beginning to accelerate. You're seeing them pop up not only here in the United States, but around the world. You've got other nation states adopting Bitcoin, most famously El Salvador, where you have the president, President Ple uh sharing screenshots of the the gains the country's made in Bitcoin since they started accumulating it.
(42:25) Obviously, we've got Bhutan uh up in the Himalayas, which has been mining Bitcoin and using it to their advantage. um different archetype of buyer. Institutions, not necessarily individuals, but institutions are made up of individuals at the end of the day. Like what do you think about this sort of archetype of new buyer and new demand source for Bitcoin uh as we head into the second half of 2025? Yeah.
(42:56) Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's very interesting to see and for me and for us in the book and we dive into this as well, it was sort of inevitable, you know, because I feel like some people structure like the the Bitcoin's journey into these several sort of uh stages, you know, you had like the early adopter uh stage or like even before you had all the nerds and techies, then the early adopters, then the finance people, it was all the individuals, the retailers that were first, you know, which is really neat about Bitcoin. And uh it's probably the only industry where this really can happen. You know, it's not
(43:26) the institutions first. But then at some point obviously and I think we reached now uh this threshold where with 100k, you know, it's it's really people who have been in Bitcoin for maybe five, seven, six years, they made probably uh astonishingly amounts of wealth as well, you know, even sometimes life-changing stuff.
(43:47) And and and they are they have huddled through all these troughs and and the ups and downs. And I mean they are now feeling ever more compelled to act out their beliefs you know and and pushing uh for the adoption of Bitcoin. And now uh with with strategy uh having shown this playbook I think this is what we're seeing across uh uh different spectrums of of of institutions you know like really people the bitcoiners themselves who maybe have even come into positions where they can sort of move the needle inside companies you know I
(44:19) myself are sort of a person I mean I'm not a banker myself I I never I'd never studied finance at university and here I am I find myself among investment managers in one of the Switzerland's top banks, you know, as a Bitcoiner and and I can now also try to drive policy even though within a bank it's still sort of hard, you know, because there are all these regulations, but but yeah, there's there's other examples that I can point to.
(44:49) Like for me, DylanLlair is like the the the the best example, you know, he's like this guy really young coming from from the trenches, so to say, and is now moving uh the the the needle with MetaPlanet and and and I think that's what we're seeing. We will keep on seeing this. That's why I believe there's so much more to come on on that front because just a lot of people a lot of bitcoiners who want to uh now use this leverage that they have and then the amplifier are the institutions which can do everything on a on a greater scale and that will amplify everything with with all the bad uh the pros and
(45:24) cons I guess you know I mean when it comes to these Bitcoin treasury companies I'm not sure this is probably also somewhat overhyped you know and at some point. Some will will die again. I mean, I just have anecdotal evidence again, but I mean, I'm now also being asked to be an advisor to some companies that want to start in Switzerland, you know, and I'm just a small Bitcoiner, maybe here in Switzerland, some sort of expert, but I have a small following. But the the case or the fact that they're now asking me kind of shows me,
(45:57) okay, I I'm not proficient enough, but they just want to maybe have somebody who can slap a pretty face on. Yeah, exactly. And source some attention and stuff. And so this sort of is ane anecdotal evidence for me that we might be in the stage where these things are getting overhyped. Uh I also believe that uh maybe in Switzerland the Bitcoin treasury company might not make that much sense after all because when it comes to buying Bitcoin we're world renown to to be among the best places you know with the banks where you can already enter. We have like all the ETPs from very early on. We have no capital
(46:33) gains on Bitcoin. So no real mode that you will have as a as a Bitcoin treasury companies company. And I believe it's probably the similar with other countries and with some it's not. You know in the US you have strategy they really have like their edge or it seems like in in in Japan you have Metaplanet they have some sort of uh regulatory arbitrage that's going on there. So in some countries it might work but not in all.
(47:01) And so yeah I mean it's always the same. It's it's it's pros and cons to everything, but but I think it's just not going away because of the the force that I that we describe in the book, you know, with all these hotters that really want to the want to be the change that they want to see in the world, you know. Yeah, it's uh it's funny.
(47:21) It's the the chat behind the scenes in the industry right now is like particularly for podcasters is like when are you when you going to join the the next treasury company? Yeah, I was I was waiting for you to join soon, you know. No, to all the listeners out there, if I ever join one, uh it's a it's a side at the top.
(47:40) My my timing uh my timing is not not great, and I'm not fit for purpose for that type of role. Um I like to talk about Bitcoin. Doesn't mean I'm uh an expert at capital market arbitrage. Yeah, I don't want to piss on anybody particular, but even in the US, you might know who I'm referencing, but there are other people, you know, big podcasters who who now are wearing a hat, you know, and uh there's like some company name on it. And so I'm like, okay, this this looks a little toppy to me as well. But uh we'll see.
(48:10) Maybe maybe not. Maybe maybe this time is different after all. We shall see. I I'll be I'll be happy just to do what I'm doing here at TFTC in 10:31. that's enough for me. I don't need to uh to join a treasury company. But it is it is insane. Like another thing I was thinking about as we were talking about like institutions are made up of individuals and as Bitcoin monetizes, the price goes up and the individuals in Bitcoin get wealthier. They can influence policy.
(48:44) They can deploy capital to build companies and goods that they want to see in the world. They can get politically active, whatever it may be. And this reminds me of um a presentation that Tur de Mester gave in Austin early last year during a Bitcoin urbanism meetup.
(49:02) It might have been two years ago now at this point, but it is a pretty wild stat. Like as Bitcoin does a 10x every four to six years, whatever whatever it averages out to be, like the amount uh the the steps individual Bitcoiners make into the top one, top.1, top. 01% of the global wealth ladder uh increases. And I and I think what he said during that presentation was I don't think we realize how quickly we're going to get to a point where like the 0.
(49:39) 01% is made up of like 50% Bitcoiners and then you can really begin to use that capital that you've saved and accumulated to change the world for the better which is incredibly uh incredibly uh optimistic in a good way. not not overly optimistic, not naive optimistic, but it's an optimistic view of the future where you found this thing. You found it early.
(50:03) You put in the hard work to understand it, uh make money to buy it, accumulate it, and hold it for a long period of time. And then uh maybe that is the path to to fixing all these things is enough Bitcoiners who are uh philosophically and ideologically aligned getting to a point of wealth where they begin to deploy that capital and fix the systemic issues in the system.
(50:24) No, that's that's a great point and I mean I I know what talk I think you're referencing by tour. I think it was uh put online as well and I watched it too because I I think it's a journey that many Bitcoiners will go through as well, you know.
(50:43) I mean I'm going through this uh myself in in terms of I'm a true libertarian at heart you know and so when I first discovered Bitcoin I was like okay this is really something that uh helps me not to care about politics anymore you know and in some extent it does it gives me some reassurance you know also when it comes to the portfolio that you have you know like okay maybe maybe what the what all the clowns are doing out here maybe it might not affect me that harsh you know because I have my secret stash here and and and at least this is giving me some reassurance, you know, but then at the same time, I feel
(51:13) like it can also be a little naive, you know. I I just saw this post a couple of days back by Max Kaiser, you know, and and and again, he he he wrote a praise for our book as well because he's good friends with Ricardo and so don't want to [ __ ] on him at all, but he was like he had this meme sort of without Bitcoin, I'd be forced to care about politics, you know, that's what we what he posted to some other thing that he was referencing and I was like, yeah, maybe if you are that well off like him and you can escape to El Salvador or that's true, but maybe it's not true for everyone, not even for every Bitcoiner,
(51:50) you know, because at the margin some might not be as well off as him. And so maybe it and that's where I'm then questioning myself again, you know. No. Um, so maybe it's not that good. it it wouldn't be that good if all the bitcoiners just really retreat and don't care about and and and luckily I think that's also not what we're seeing because as you said in the US you have the I think the BTC policy institute all these uh institutions that are picking up as well I see it here in Switzerland as well all the the institutions and and
(52:23) entities that are being founded to really uh influence politics in some way and then you also have the resources by now you know because usually like all these political groups groups uh all the libertarians they they didn't have that m much money but nowadays they have it and money sort of moves some things at the margin as well and so I think that's really interesting I'm I'm looking forward to to see what what influence Bitcoiners will have you know um I'm just reading this book Satoshi's paper by Natalie Smolinsky and in the in the beginning she references all these acts
(52:58) in the US that you guys put through um like sometimes even behind closed doors sort of the Patriot Act, the anti-drock money act, whatever act there is. I don't even know. You might know it better than me. But the bank secrecy act. Yeah, the bank secrecy act.
(53:17) All these acts, you know, and she's also in the book, they're like, "Okay, maybe Bitcoiner will have the financial power, the interest, the stamina, everything else to to reverse these things and go up against this." And and so that that will be very interesting to see. And that would, as you said, to your point, make the world a better place. at least in our eyes probably.
(53:34) And so it's going to be interesting how that pans out as well. Yeah. You may not care about political power, but political power cares about you. It's uh for somebody who's um definitely slanted more towards libertarianism that uh it's it's a hard thing to come to grips with, but I think you have to realize you're in a game and you're an actor in that game and you may not like the rules and want to opt out.
(54:02) But if you if you're looking for the optimal outcome, you probably have to play ball to a certain extent. And I think Bitcoiners, particularly here in the United States, have really woken up to that in the last 3 years. and began to and I think it's also very important because one other thing that really that I learned when I was researching and then writing the book I went full deep down the rabbit hole uh towards MMT you know like modern monetary theory I mean I always knew sort of what it is uh I studied Griop you know which is like sort of the founder back in the 19th century and
(54:38) stuff but uh researching the book I I did this deep dive on MMT and I found it so fascinating. Even though I'm I'm not sort of fond of their conclusions, I feel like these guys, they're spot on when it comes to describing today's system.
(54:58) I think you had Mel Madison on just a few weeks ago and and I had an episode on my podcast with him as well where we were discussing that Trump is really sort of following these MMT um policies and and so I found this so interesting because like they they have like these MMT guys. I don't know have you seen the movie Finding the Money? You know this documentary? No. I can watch it.
(55:23) Yeah, I can recommend it because like there as a Bitcoiner I could sort of relate, you know, because they have been jumping through similar hoops in terms of like they're being called monetary fringe people and cringe, you know, and so everybody laughs at them, but then when they really go talk to people and they sort of not orange pill, but MMT pill them, I mean, they they sometimes um really manage this, you know, because they're like, "Okay, we're in fiat that now and then they make all these sort of promises as well you know because with MMT you can finance everything no sort
(55:55) of lack to to the money that you can create and stuff and so as I said even though I don't really uh can subscribe to this theory in terms of like morals and and philosophy wise I feel like this is just what's going to happen in the fiat system you know these people are going to be ever stronger voices um and and and and maybe if at some point Democrats are are coming back to power.
(56:19) I mean they will be all over their ears and and and so um it's it's all the more important that we have Bitcoin because in in an MMT world I mean control and everything is just going to be a lot harsher and and that's why it's even more important that we have the Bitcoiners who who take to the stage as well and then sort of uh try to refute them as well you know and and and have some counterarguments ready because I think this theory is gaining a lot of momentum and um it's just because Yeah, it's it's they're promising La La Land,
(56:51) you know, to everyone and and that's what people want to hear in the end, you know, and the rules of the game are such that they can like it's with the realm of possibility in that rule set and so they can go effectuate what they want to happen which is um unnerving because like you said it I don't agree with it morally, philosophically and it's a complete it's basically like an admission, you become completely untethered from reality.
(57:24) And so once you do that, here's what's possible. You can the debt doesn't matter. You can finance everything. Exactly. Printed dollars. Then you just tax them out of the system. Yeah. But but but the thing to me is and like a lot of people like we call them the the useful idiots, you know? I mean they might just go happily go along with this you know because for me the pandemic or plemic or whatever you want to call it was like a perfect example for this you know like a lot of people just went along with it they didn't care and so I think the same might be
(57:56) happening there especially if these economists and politicians who are influenced by these economists are then promising them the entire world you know by okay we can we can get rid of climate change we can get rid of this we can finance everyone on just because the money doesn't matter.
(58:13) We just sort of have to mobilize the real resources because that's that's what they can't um print, you know, not yet, you know, at least uh that's that's not possible. And so I mean I think people will just go along with it and and then yeah, the system itself will have will need more levers to pull to sort of steer people into the right direction in terms of providing the real resources.
(58:37) That's why the control uh screws will probably be tightened, you know, but I could imagine people go along with it because like both of the systems sort of have these useful idiots, you know, like the traditional one has these with the people going along. The Bitcoin system also has these useful idiots like all the crypto people who buy uh into crypto and then end up being Bitcoiners or they start out as use as as as like useful idiots and then uh this also helps our cause in the end because more money is is is like initially coming into the space. And so yeah, I think um this will
(59:14) probably be the defining battle going forward for me, you know, MMT versus Bitcoin uh like philosophically again. But uh I just think uh the more I studied it now, I I wouldn't just laugh it off anymore because I think it's it's a serious serious development and will only uh catch more and more fire.
(59:34) At least that's that's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think you only have to look at the front runner for mayor of New York City um to to see that it is definitely gaining in terms of influence. He's in this documentary as well and um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is he? I have to watch this. I I think so.
(59:57) Yeah, I think it's it's he is in there as well or at least like one of his advisers. Yeah. So, it is interesting. It is. Another thing I wanted to like come back on because you brought it up like Max um down in El Salvador and this idea of like flag theory like just when [ __ ] hits the fan just leave where you where you grew up and go find go find um like mind a Bitcoin or somewhere on an island around the world build your citadel like that has always internally I've paid credence to it in the past but as I've gotten older and had children, I find it like just like untenable for me personally. Um, as
(1:00:37) somebody who has a pretty strong nuclear and extended family, like the idea of like abandoning where I grew up from, like I was telling you before we hit record, I just moved back to my hometown of Philadelphia.
(1:00:55) Um, partly for this reason, is my family's there, my extended family, my friends that I still really close with who I grew up with, we're all there. And this idea of just abandoning your roots to to go find like-minded people elsewhere just has never sat well with me. And uh maybe it's naive, maybe it's idealistic, but I I do think there is credence in being that individual who gets Bitcoin and understands or likes to think that he understands a lot of the uh what's causing the problems and the strife and how the game is messed up in the world.
(1:01:29) um to sort of put the flag down and say, "No, I'm going to make sure that where I grew up, my home um does not just get washed in the wave of fiat debasement and fiat politics and um put up a fight to try to slowly but surely um convince people that, hey, there's another way to do things and Bitcoin's part of that way." Yeah. No, that's that's greatly said.
(1:01:55) I mean I was going through the same thing you know as I said uh the book came about because we were traveling as sovereign individuals/digital nomads you know and uh we were really sort of unregistered from Switzerland so like uh no strings attached you know we wanted to really live this life but after 2 years we figured yeah it's it's it's tough as you said I'm also well rooted with family extended friends and so um I'm like wow um if you can really pull this off. I mean, I'm impressed. You know, I have I have now some digital
(1:02:29) nomad friends who've been doing this for plus 10 years. And so, it's it's crazy. But if if you then without again calling anyone out, but if you look at these people, they're living all by themselves, usually they have no wife, no family, and just traveling.
(1:02:48) And so, yeah, maybe if it's for you, then it's it's okayish, but like I'm I'm probably similar to you. I I couldn't do this. And so, yeah, going back to to where your roots are and and really try to make a difference, like maybe for example, Peter McCormack, you know, who's really now uh trying to get his city around and and and investing in this soccer club and everything.
(1:03:08) That's just that's another legacy that you can leave. And so, um again, I mean, that's Bitcoin gives you the optionality, you know, in both ways. And that's what I like about it. And so, uh yeah, um everyone to each his own, I guess. That's that's what it is. But I'm with you on that. Yeah.
(1:03:27) No, I think that I mean maybe that's the most important point to get out of uh your individual Bitcoin enlightenment is that it gives you that optionality which is far preferable to the lack of optionality that exists within the fiat system today. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's that's definitely that's that's something uh this optionality which is I think what what what what freedom is for me eventually about you know like you get the options you get to choose and and and exactly that's also coming back to this whole MMT thing you know um I mean yeah I I do understand where they're
(1:04:04) going but in the end as I said if you can only print the money and you cannot print the real resources you have to source it from somewhere and usually this only goes through like soft force or they're even hard force, you know, and and and then you sort of have to mandate stuff and you have to get people to work in in healthcare and and that's why because that's where you're spending all the money and then then so the resources has to sort of be transferred there and and channeled into these industries and so it it's all through force and and and and in the end exactly
(1:04:37) that's that's not what what my philosophical underpinning and and belief is about and then that's what I what prefer about Bitcoin, you know, it it really everyone is adopting it freely and and it gives you the choice to either live this nomadic lifestyle or go back and and uh become a a tribal Bitcoiner in in your family. And we have a a sub chapter on this on the book as well.
(1:05:03) It's exactly this in top chapter 7 where we talk about this dichotomy or just like uh yeah the citadel versus like uh maybe the the nomad or Yeah. So, it's probably going to be the future has will have both, I guess. Yeah, I would agree there. I would agree there. I'm not [ __ ] leaving. I'm not leaving. Um, uh, this has been great.
(1:05:33) Where, um, where should we send people? The safe house. Yes. Yeah. In the end, it's it's the safe house. Yeah. That's where you get the book. It's also on Amazon. For anybody listening from from Europe, I guess Amazon.de uh from Germany is probably the best site because then you get no shipping costs. I don't know if we have figured it out on on Amazon.
(1:05:55) com yet, but if you're from the States or internationally, like it's the best place is probably to go and and order it from the safe house because there it's the the highest quality books that you get also in terms of wrapping and everything. I mean, Safe is really making sure this is this is high standard. Yeah. Safe building out a publishing empire, one book at a time. Yes, he is. He is. Exactly. Yeah.
(1:06:14) You're in uh you're in great company at the Safe House. Yes. Yeah, that's that's for sure. I mean, it's it's amazing. It's his it's I mean I I would have never imagined that we will ever publish a book through safe but I mean Ricardo being a huge fan of of his and that was maybe his his biggest requirement you know write a book which is close to the Bitcoin standard and we were like dude this is quite a quite some pressure that you're putting on on us here you know and and obviously we didn't want to rewrite everything that Safe has already written
(1:06:46) and that's why we tried to with the philosophical angle that we talked about with the historical angle that might not have been addressed so far. And so, yeah, in the end, I hope we we did it, but yeah, it's it's it's such a privilege to to be on board with him. So, um, can't complain for sure. Well, thank you for writing the book. I'm going to wait for my hard cover to show up. I'm a I'm a physical book maxi.
(1:07:13) Um, nice. Yeah. To uh to finish the rest of the book beyond chapter 4. But no, I think this message is incredibly powerful and important. I mean, there's many different ways through which people come to Bitcoin, and I've long been uh an advocate of the more content, the more angles on Bitcoin education, the better.
(1:07:37) Um, people often ask me, as somebody who's been podcasting about Bitcoin for eight years now, like, oh, you ever get triggered by all the new Bitcoin podcasts coming to the market, all the new books? I'm like, no, the more the better. Each individual has something that they connect with. Yeah. Differently.
(1:07:56) And the more angles you're sort of describing the problem and the solution, the better. Yeah. The It's true. The less we get to and we don't get to print any Bitcoin at all, the more we have to print Bitcoiners like you and me or like we have to print Bitcoin podcasts and so everything else is probably fine. So, uh, yeah, keep them coming. All right. Well, Pascal, I hope you enjoy your night.
(1:08:19) Uh, and freaks, go pick up the book. Go pick up the book. Put it on the bookshelf. Read it. Spread it. And, uh, I'm sure we'll I'm sure we'll catch up this fall as well, cuz there there's going to be a lot going on. Great, Marty. Thanks for bringing me on. H, keep up the work as well.
(1:08:39) And, uh, too bad I don't get to see you in RA, but maybe, as you said, in fall or some somewhere else. Uh yeah, Bitcoin is still still a small world, at least among the the core Bitcoiners, I'd argue. So, yeah, every now and then we get to meet we'll run into each other somewhere. Sure. Somewhere around the world at some point. Exactly. Cool. Thanks a lot. Have a great one. Thank you. You too. Peace and love, freaks. Freaks.
(1:09:01) Thank you for listening to the show. I hope you liked it. If you did like it, please make sure you subscribe, rate, review the show. It helps us out a lot. And also, if you like these conversations, I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast. They don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company. We have the newsletter, the Bitcoin Brief, go to TFTC.io.
(1:09:21) Make sure you subscribe there. A lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter. We also have the TFTC elite tier. If you sign up for that, become a member. We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early.
(1:09:51) Logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early, become a TFTC Elite member. You will get that. We have our Discord server right now. conversation between myself and TFTC elite tier members, but we're going to expand that. We'll probably do close Q&As with people in the industry. Uh I may be doing macro Mondays. So, join us. Go to tftc.
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