Money Devkit’s bet is that Bitcoin wins in 2026 by disappearing into the stack.
Nick Slaney argues that Bitcoin’s real “problem” in 2026 isn’t demand, it’s distribution, millions of new builders can ship software faster than ever, but still hit a payments wall the moment they try to monetize globally. He frames Stripe as the default bottleneck, long onboarding, KYC friction, country restrictions, and punishing cross-border fees, creating the nightmare scenario of spending weeks building an app only to learn you can’t get paid. Money Devkit’s wedge is self-custody Lightning payments packaged as a developer-friendly, “it just works” abstraction, libraries for common stacks (Next.js/Vercel, Replit/Express/Vite) plus an MCP server that lets an agent automatically create accounts, read docs, configure env vars, and integrate payments in minutes. Under the hood, it deploys a “mini Lightning node” on the developer’s infrastructure where the developer holds keys, while Money Devkit handles the hard operational parts (liquidity/channel management via an LSP model). Slaney’s core thesis, self-custody isn’t a moral pitch, it’s a scaling unlock for access and speed, especially for builders outside Stripe’s footprint and for future “agentic payments” where agents spin up payment capability without passports, bank accounts, or processor risk models. He’s skeptical of the stablecoin hype as a “global access” story, claiming regulated, US-nexus stablecoin rails inherit onboarding constraints that made Tether compelling in the first place (operating with minimal US nexus), and that the real stablecoin opportunity is more a fintech/Visa-Mastercard replacement play than an open, permissionless payments layer. On Lightning, he says the industry obsessively debates low-level fee mechanics while missing the product moment, consumer-side capability is improving (more users can send), but merchant acceptance is lagging, so the opportunity is building polished, opinionated “paved paths” that normal users actually adopt. He points to practical catalysts like Cash App/Strike style UX (pay a Bitcoin invoice from a dollar balance) as critical infrastructure for mainstream usage, and calls out missing higher-level primitives like native recurring/pull payments (BOLT12/recurrence) as a major gap for subscriptions, the feature set every payments product needs to compete with Stripe. Ultimately, the episode paints a 2026 landscape where Bitcoin wins by being invisible, selling “payments + access” rather than “Bitcoin the asset,” and turning the open network into a default monetization layer for the explosion in software creation.
“The demo of just ‘hey add payments,’ and then you can take a production payment in less than 5 minutes, that’s huge.”
“With self-custody, you don’t have to do all of the onboarding KYC that you have to do when you use something like Stripe.”
“We saw a bunch of volume on the Lightning Network… We didn’t see a lot of people actually receiving payments.”
“I think now we have the opposite problem… a lot of people who either hold Bitcoin or have access to send Bitcoin and we don’t have a lot of people accepting it.”
“We’re really focused on science when we should be focused on engineering.”
“The people we’re trying to serve… they probably don’t even actually want Bitcoin. They just want payments.”
“Bitcoin is an open network… I don’t have to worry about what Mastercard thinks about our business.”
“Stable coins… pick your stable coin, pick the chain… only send USDC on Base or you’ll lose all your money.”
“My big thing is subscriptions… Lightning really lacks… a native way to do pull payments.”
“We’re not trying to sell Bitcoin the asset. We’re trying to sell the access… and the ability to actually… accept and receive value.”
This conversation reframes “Bitcoin’s real problem in 2026” as a product and distribution challenge, not a protocol one, builders are shipping at unprecedented speed, but monetization remains gated by legacy payment rails and the compliance/geography constraints baked into them. Money Devkit positions self-custodial Lightning as the shortcut that collapses onboarding time, expands global reach, and unlocks the coming wave of agent-native commerce, while simultaneously arguing that stablecoin momentum is being misread as “access” when much of it looks like domestic fintech infrastructure re-plumbing. If the next phase of Bitcoin is about crossing the chasm, Slaney’s prescription is clear, stop fetishizing low-level edge cases and start shipping high-level, opinionated payment experiences, subscriptions, customers, and “it just works” abstractions, that make Bitcoin useful to people who don’t care about Bitcoin at all.
0:00 - Intro
0:24 - Origin of MoneyDevKit
4:34 - Bypassing Stripe gatekeeping
9:46 - Bitcoin for AI agents
12:27 - Stablecoin myth
18:07 - Bitkey & SLNT
20:09 - Adoption chicken and egg problem
28:55 - MDK reception
34:29 - Opus vibe codig
38:05 - Unchained
39:14 - Non custodial LN
42:40 - Recurring payents
51:14 - State of LN & what’s missing
(00:00) probably the worst thing to put days if not weeks of your life into an app and find out, wait, I can't get paid for this. The Bitcoin for America conference in Washington DC. I don't know if you noticed that, but I think that was the first time Paulo ever stepped foot on US soil.
(00:14) 2024 was such a dark time for Lightning between Phoenix pulling out of the US and all that sort of uncertainty with the Biden administration. >> Nick Slaney, welcome to the show, sir. >> Hey, Marty, thanks for having me on. Thanks for coming on. I I think uh you're at the intersection of something that fascinates me um incredibly right now, which is Bitcoin.
(00:40) Obviously been a Bitcoiner for 13 years, but I've been getting into vibe coding and you uh you released a demo of integrating your product money devkit uh into Replet and making it easier for vibe coders to to accept payments pretty trivially using the Bitcoin network. Um, and so jump off, why don't we give a a brief description of your background and why you decided to start Money Devkit and what it is at a high level.
(01:13) >> Yeah, definitely. Uh, Nick Slaney, been a Bitcoiner for a long time since like 2013. I joined Block as a hardware engineer. Uh, and around that time, that's actually when Jack started talking a little more publicly about Bitcoin. um really exciting for me as a Bitcoiner and I was also getting into the lightning network at the time.
(01:34) Um so that was going on. They internally said they were going to start working on what became BitKey. I got onto the BitKey team. Exactly. As a as a mechanical engineer, so I did helped do the product design engineer product design for BitKey. Uh and at the time I was also getting the Lightning Network and I was like, "Hey, we can do more with the Lightning Network at Block.
(01:55) " We just had cash app withdrawals and deposits at the time. Um, so I went and did a put together a doc, pitched it around the company, got the attention of the right people and we started C equals. So at block um you know we started C equals which was a routing node on the lightning network and we wanted to do a lot with that node.
(02:18) What we ended up doing was mostly serving Cache app and you know making the best routing node we could. Um and we saw really big growth in volume which was really cool. Um fast forward to the end of 2024 early 2025 uh I ended up leaving Block. Um and I wanted to pursue kind of the insights we saw at Block.
(02:46) We saw a bunch of volume on the light network. We saw a lot of people paying. We didn't see a lot of people actually receiving payments. So, kind of that money devkit was born out of that this idea of, hey, let's make it actually easy to receive lightning payments online. And it just so happens, you know, all this vibe coding AI stuff was taking off.
(03:09) I actually started Money Devkit. It was me and Sonnet at the time like, "Hey, take LDK node. let's try to make it something I can run. Um, which I kind of had an idea about. Um, but from there I got some help, got some people to uh, you know, Money Devkit is not completely vibe coded. It's made by really legit developers.
(03:29) But, um, yeah, it's been a lot. So, money devkit is basically now um, a way to take lightning payments on your website. and we've gotten it to the point where you can just say, "Hey, Replet agent, add payments with money devkit and it just works." And that's the dream. So that's a video we put out on New Year's Eve actually.
(03:51) And uh we have a bunch of people trying it now. >> Yeah. And so when you're calling a replet agent saying, "Hey, implement money devkit." What's happening behind the scenes? So we've actually created an MCP server which uh allows you to create an account and do all the money devkit things via the agent and replet has this integration where you can easily add MCP servers.
(04:15) So the agent actually reaches out to our website creates an account looks at our docs uh implements everything in our docs and um puts in all of the environment variables everything for you. So the agent is basically doing everything and we've just given uh the agent the right things to to poke and prod to make it work. >> And I think one of the reasons you're focused on Bitcoin specifically and money devkit uh is because of the sovereign neutral asset of the protocol itself.
(04:49) I think there are many people out there vibe coding many applications will need payments and many people run into problems uh with something like stripe particularly or even stable coins to a certain extent. What is it about bitcoin and the lightning network specifically that is perfectly suited for this explosion in app development that we're seeing? >> The way we can get such an easy flow is because we're doing self-custody.
(05:16) And if you go to the money devkit website, we're not saying self custody, care about self- custody. This is the biggest thing ever. What we're saying is accept payments. Uh with self- custody, you don't have to do all of the onboarding KYC that you have to do when you use something like Stripe. Um so, you know, we've kind of packaged that up so that we can get the access and it's kind of two things. It's access and ease of use.
(05:43) So the demo of just a addad payments and then you can take a production payment in less than 5 minutes, that's huge. No one's been able to do that before. Even if you're in a supported country by Stripe um and you go through the Stripe onboarding flow, it'll take, you know, a day at least to get things going.
(06:03) So ease of use is huge, but also access. Um, since we're self- custody, we don't have to have the limitations of Stripe. So, there's a lot of people out there, if you go on X-ray now and you search Stripe rejected, you'll see hundreds of people, a lot of them actually in India, who are saying, "Hey, um, I made this cool app. I'm really excited.
(06:26) I just found out Stripe doesn't work in my country. What do I do?" And they're in a lot of pain. It's like actually probably the worst thing to put days if not weeks of your life into an app and find out, wait, I can't get paid for this. So using Bitcoin is the best way for us to reach those people because Bitcoin was built with the idea of self-custody in mind.
(06:48) That's what gives us a way to actually reach as many people as possible as easily as possible. >> And what's happening under the hood when you when you use money devkit? With money devkit, we've basically made libraries that easily fit into what people are using today. Our first library was Nex.js. A lot of people make websites on Nex.
(07:09) js and deploy them to forcell. It's a very easy thing. We have another library that's uh replet. So it uses express uh vite like the kind of things that replet uses. Um, and what we're doing in the library is we're actually giving you a little mini lightning node that you run yourself. When I say we're giving you a lightning node, I think people automatically go to like, wait, I have to run a server and I have to do this. We do it all for you.
(07:36) So, it's an LSP. Um, we actually let you hold your keys and you're able to run a server on your own infrastructure, but we are, you know, handling channel liquidity, um, and all the kind of complicated stuff. The main thing is you're holding your keys and you have a node um that's deployed on your own infrastructure.
(07:57) >> And how do you how do you make users aware that they're holding their own keys and the responsibility that comes with that? >> We have uh it in the docs. We have it actually in the MCP server to like hey this is uh you want to this is your wallet key. You want to keep this safe. But also, we think the typical money devkit user is maybe not a Bitcoiner.
(08:19) Actually, we kind of hope that's the case. For Bitcoiners, I think they know pretty well like, "Hey, this is my key." Um, but also, we want people to be offboarding either to their exchange to get their own local currency or to their own wallet. So, we don't really see Money Devkit as the place where you store all your money, more just an easy place to receive payments.
(08:42) And then from there you can bring it to your wallet, your self- custody or to your local currency. So we do say, hey, you know, it's good to keep this seat. Make sure you don't lose it. Um, but also we expect most people to not be keeping a lot of money on my dev kit. >> And right now it's only one-time sales, but you have subscriptions and usage base coming soon.
(09:04) >> Yeah. So we're going to be covering all of the things that people expect from a payment product. A lot of people have made like, hey, you can, this is a developer tool. You can use Bitcoin payments with this, but all they give is send and receive. That's good for a wallet, but most people who are making websites, they want the full stack.
(09:26) Stripe does a lot more than just the credit card API uh receive credit card payments. They're doing customers, subscriptions, products. These are all things we're working on now. We actually just got our customers integrations started and uh subscriptions and products and all that sorts of things are uh going to be following soon.
(09:45) >> Yeah. So let's let's lean into this. Do you do you think cuz this has been an ongoing conversation over the last 2 years particularly as AI has really hit the scene and more particularly this idea of an agentic framework more specifically an autonomous agentic sort of digital ecosystem arising and I've always been under the impression that it makes sense like if agents are going to be running around the internet doing tasks for humans and some of those tasks necessitating the transfer of of money Bitcoin makes sense. Is is this your
(10:26) view as well? And if so, like let's explain to the audience why Bitcoin may be perfectly suited for this specifically. >> Yeah, definitely. The biggest thing is what I was talking about before is the self-custody aspect. With Money Devkit, we've made it so self-custody is super accessible and you don't really have to think about it.
(10:46) And the benefits that gives is you can accept payments anywhere. You don't need to have like the very rigid basically set up a bank account to accept payments. And this translates really well to agents because I think you see a lot of people talking about agentic payments and a lot of people saying like this is going to be huge.
(11:07) But I haven't seen anyone actually do it yet. And I think a lot of it is they are in um you know discussions with all sorts of people at payment networks and they're talking about the sort of things that keep people from getting on those payment networks in the first place and trying to figure out how this is going to work.
(11:27) With a easyto use self-custody solution that an agent can just spin up itself. You don't have to worry about any of that because there's no payment processor that's taking on the risk of what the agent is doing. the agent is just using a software tool that lets it interact with Bitcoin and Lightning.
(11:43) So, that's hugely powerful when you're talking about things like, hey, is an agent going to pay for an MCP server? Are agents going to be paying each other? Are agents going to be creating other agents that then are paying other agents? All these kind of use cases in the traditional finance world, you have to start with, well, where am I going to scan the passport? you know who how do I make sure it's the country I support and you know I know where the money is coming from when it's self-custody and it's very much a responsibility is on the developer and
(12:11) the agent then it's just so much simpler so we're we're looking into the agentic payment stuff now um and I think we can get to a proof of concept much faster than a lot of these companies that are you know starting with Stripe or starting with traditional payments >> or stable coins you know I think you have strong views on stable coins specifically.
(12:32) What are what are your thoughts on the fascination and the energy behind stable coins as an industry right now? >> A lot of people have asked us about stable coins, especially as we raised our seed round kind of, hey, stable coins are the hot thing. We were raising right around the time when Stripe was spending a billion dollars on privy and uh >> bridge and all these kind of stable coin things and I think everyone was there was a lot of fervor but underneath people who know how stable coins work and they know why Tether is popular were
(13:04) pretty confused. Marty I think you were probably I think at least Odell was at the um Bitcoin for America uh conference in Washington DC. >> I was there too. Yeah. >> Yeah. And Paulo was there. I don't know if you noticed that, but I think that was the first time Paulo ever stepped foot on US soil.
(13:23) He's the, you know, the CEO of Tether. >> And people in the industry know that Tether is popular because it lets you hold dollars in places where it's basically illegal to hold dollars. And Tether's whole business was based around having absolutely no US nexus. No one went to the US. They didn't hire any US citizens.
(13:46) So the whole Genius Act, Circle IPO, bridge, privy thing, I think to most people in the industry, they were kind of like, hey, what's going on? Like a USDC has always been a lower market cap than Tether because Tether got global access by completely avoiding the US. And when the Genius Act passed and we saw, hey, this has these kind of onboarding requirements that banks have, I immediately was like, okay, well, this won't have the access that Tether had.
(14:16) And um I think that's like the real glaring thing right now. The narrative is, hey, stable coins are going to have Stripe go global. But actually when you look at the plays when you actually go through stable coin flows you usually run into the sort of stuff that keeps people from like India out.
(14:36) So for us at money devkit we're maximizing for access. We're really going for those people who are hey I created an app millions and millions of people can do this now uh but I can't use stripe. And what we saw with stable coins was not a big um access expansion at least with the US stable coins, but we saw basically a fintech play to replace Mastercard and Visa, which is uh you know totally reasonable for Stripe to do um and totally reasonable for basically every company in the US to try to get around Mastercard and Visa, but for a
(15:15) really global big global TAM play, it doesn't really match So for us, Bitcoin was really the uh the thing to go with. And actually, it's really interesting, Marty. We were talking with a traditionally underbanked business in the US and they told us, "Hey, we're talking to a bunch of stable coin companies.
(15:37) Um, you know, they're really excited, but with this Bitcoin thing, do you have to will Mastercard get mad if you're doing this?" And I had to explain to this company like, "No, Bitcoin is an open network. there's no uh I don't have to worry about what what Mastercard thinks about our business. Um and that to me was a really validating point to this um this idea of like, hey, these US stables that everyone's excited about, they don't actually give you more access.
(16:03) >> Yeah. And that uh I think we're very much aligned on this. My pin tweet on my profile right now and it's been I sent this out in July of last year. The noise of this cycle is going to be stable coin fervor, real world asset tokenization and a resurgence of blockchaining, all the things, especially AI.
(16:21) And I think the siren calls of stable coins specifically are just fascinating because people view them as these they they conflate them with Bitcoin's sovereign nature, right? Like stable coins, you have a central issuer, whether it's Tether or Circle or Coinbase, whoever it may be, and they can blacklist you.
(16:42) It's like you're you do have some I mean props for props are due. There definitely are some efficiency and user experience improvements using stable coins over Visa and Mastercard particularly in settlement times. But at the end of the day, these are centrally issued dollar um dollar equivalent tokens that that can be frozen um and or blacklisted and you have a company that sort of dictates who can and cannot use them where Bitcoin does not have that problem.
(17:12) >> Exactly. And you know the other thing with stable coins is people would say, "Hey Nick, don't you think people want stable coins?" And my response to them is the people we're trying to serve, they don't want stable coins. They don't want they probably don't even actually want Bitcoin. They just want payments.
(17:28) They're in a position where they've made something and they actually they can't receive any value. So, however, however we can get it to them is most important. And you know, it being Bitcoin, it means that we don't have those risks that the stable coin issuers have. And it also means we have more liquidity, more exchanges available.
(17:48) So someone who wants to just take payments, they can get their local currency like rupees or they can get bitcoin if they want. But it really I think leaning into this kind of medium exchange um frame of you can use bitcoin for transfer. It's the easiest way to transfer value across your world um is exactly where we want to be right now.
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(20:24) We've seen a resurgence of that uh particularly in the last year with your former company Block and Square specifically integrating it into their point of sale systems. And I think that's still one of the lingering questions in many Bitcoiners minds is like when are enough people going to have Bitcoin and be willing to spend it for this use case specifically to make sense? >> Yeah, it's a big chicken and the egg thing.
(20:52) And when I look back at, you know, all the merchant adoption 2013, 2014, I bought a laptop off overstock.com with onchain Bitcoin. I don't even want to look back at that transaction and know how much money that's worth now. Um but it was there right you could buy things on overstock with onchain bitcoin I think the issues were um onchain was slow I mean it's why lightning was invented right and also bitcoin hadn't really caught on yet we were super early adopter days now it's you know 10 plus years later bitcoin has already h had its big kind of investor
(21:30) institutional investment phase um all the kind of memes around buying Bitcoin. More people own Bitcoin now and also the technology is so much better. The how far we've come with Lightning is actually really impressive. And I think we're still at kind of the precipice of people reducing that to real practice.
(21:52) Um like actually taking the stuff we've done with Lightning and making accessible for normal people. So, I think back in the day, merchant adoption was a good idea, but the consumers weren't there. I think now we have the opposite problem. I think we have a lot of people who either hold Bitcoin or have access to send Bitcoin and we don't have a lot of people accepting it.
(22:13) So, we're kind of back at the beginning, but now I see a lot of demand on the consumer side and we just see it short up on the merchant side. >> But Nick, I was told that Lightning's a complete utter failure. Yeah, this is what I was going crazy about in 2024. 2024 was such a dark time for lightning between, you know, Phoenix pulling out of the US and all that sort of uncertainty with the Biden administration.
(22:42) Um but at the time that's when at C equals our volumes were really changing and we were seeing you know what went from something where everyone was just sending uh you know deposits to other exchanges. it started to shift towards payment size payments going to payment looking destinations in pretty good size for the lightning network and that's somewhat captured in the river um report but um yeah I was going crazy in 2024 I mean the fee market was a little wild too but um you know I think what I was saying through all of that through all the ordinal
(23:20) stuff was this going to blow over in like a year and we're going to be back to one sap per bite and we're going to be cruising and that's where we've ended up. So, you know, lightning is definitely not dead. A lot of people are using it and with money deficit, I think a lot more people are going to be using it.
(23:37) >> Well, what would you say are the most underappreciated or just completely misunderstood aspects of the lightning network and how it's being used today and how much activity is actually happening on it. I think people really get um tied up with the technical details. Um I think as an industry with Bitcoin, we're really focused on science when we should be focused on engineering.
(24:05) And what I mean by that is everyone's looking at lightning and they're looking at okay in a high fee market it costs more to open channels or okay, if I use UTXO sharing then I can spread this cost out. And I think we're kind of looking at the wrong problems. I think what we really should be focusing on is how do we get this to people? How do we make this so people want to use it? And right now our fees are much much lower than anything someone can use today.
(24:35) Like the person in India example, someone in India wants to take payments right now. They have to open an LLC in the US which is just a giant cost right there. And then once you actually if you can get on Stripe, once you're on Stripe and you're trying to take global payments, you start at it's like 4.4% and you pay 1% on the currency exchange.
(24:56) So you're at like 5.4% if you're in the US. If you're outside the US, you're at 6.4% cuz they tag on another percent to exchange to your local currency. So all of this focus on lightning fees and like trying to get to micro bips for sending payments, it's not really the right focus because if I give someone payments in India right now, they're going to be like, "Wow, I could never have payments before and now I can have payments.
(25:24) " Um, so I feel like we micro focus on these things that are very uh abstract to normal people and what we actually need to give is a nicely abstracted uh experience that someone can just use. Um, so there's so much with lightning and bitcoin where it's just like okay this is cool and this will help when we have um 100 million users but right now we don't have 100 million people sending payments.
(25:51) So the actual things we need to do are totally different. >> And then when you say like setting payments, I think to your point another big update from the Block family companies, I think was Cash App's ability to pay a Bitcoin invoice using your dollar balance on the app. So do you think more companies integrating that particular use case? Strike obviously has it as well.
(26:19) I think there are a few others that do that, but do you think that's like a necessary low-level infrastructure that needs to be widely adopted to really allow Money Devkit users to have incredible success because they're end users at the end of the day if they have Cash App or Strike and they know that they don't actually need to hold Bitcoin to pay a Bitcoin invoice that they can they can buy something without needing to worry about holding Bitcoin.
(26:49) Yeah, it's huge for us because um yeah, I mean it's a much better experience and it's something that I was uh really hammering on at Block is hey, we should do this. We should make this very easy for someone to just send a Bitcoin payment. I tweeted about it a lot too, but basically, yeah, it fills that medium of exchange use case that I think we're at right now.
(27:12) We have the UX to be able to convert from dollars to Bitcoin and send it anywhere. And we have the liquidity in the exchanges to convert from Bitcoin to local currency anywhere else. And that's what people want. They don't necessarily there are definitely people want Bitcoin and we love them and uh you know they're going to do probably really well if they hold Bitcoin over the long term.
(27:35) Um, but most people they want money in their bank account and Bitcoin is uniquely positioned to deliver that. So, I'm really h happy that cash did that experience and I think if you're running an exchange right now and you can see kind of the if you're looking ahead having this sort of autocon convert on and off ramp I know Bull is doing it.
(27:57) I think Bull Bitcoin is actually in a really good position. Um, and Cash App and Strike, of course, being able to be the on and off ramp for something like Money Devkit is insanely valuable cuz we're going to have a lot of users who are creating apps, creating value, um, and they're going to want to just get money in their bank account.
(28:18) and that partnership um whether you're on the accepting side or you're partnering with a wallet um it's kind of the right setup to make money really flow. So that's why we use Cash App with every demo we have because it's just so simple and quick and it's such a good example.
(28:39) I could use Coinbase or I could use another app and you get there but you have to like buy Bitcoin, you have to send it. Um, I think if you're an exchange and you want to be forward thinking and you want to be in the future, you should be looking at Cash App and how they actually do their stuff. >> Yeah. What's the response been like uh since you've been releasing these demos over the last few months? I mean, I think the Replet one um was probably the biggest because obviously there's a lot of focus on Replet specifically as people are getting into Vibe coding, but
(29:10) I I have to imagine that um having that MCP um server integrated into Replet could be massive for you guys. >> Yeah, because it just works. And people aren't used to that with payments. We actually had um I had like a fintech payments PM say like, "Hey, where do you do the onboarding?" I'd explain to them, oh, it's self self- custody.
(29:31) You don't uh you don't have to do this for self- custody. And um I think people are just astounded that they can just add payments in five minutes. The access story is key, but the ease of use and the UX is actually um kind of surprisingly what people are responding most about. They're like, I can't believe I can just do this this quickly.
(29:52) Um, and especially I actually had one person say, "Oh, why should I use this next to Stripe?" And I wasn't expecting I was thinking, "Okay, maybe most people are using this because they can't use Stripe." But that international payment story, if you want to take payments globally, you actually get hammered on fees to do that.
(30:12) So, um, it's been interesting. There's a lot of cool websites that are being spun up right now. And whenever you put out a video, it's kind of a lagging effect. It's like uh you know you get hundreds of thousands of views and you get you know a thousand bookmarks and those are all people who are going to go um it's really interesting for vibe coding and kind of this industry.
(30:33) It all happens nights and weekends. It's like someone doing a side project in their spare time and you know it only takes uh eventually those hit and take off and people start investing more and more time into it. So, um, it's been really cool to see what people create and, uh, we're excited for what's next. >> What are what are some of the examples of things that people are using Money Devkit with? >> Uh, we have, uh, you know, Matt Boles is a um, he's kind of a famous vibe coder.
(31:03) He was early on talking about vibe coding in Bitcoin. He's created impressionista.f fun. Uh he told me that image generation is like the hello world of AI vibecoded apps where you just make like a nice app that calls maybe the open AI image generation um API and he has a nice prompt to make them all like super aesthetic pictures.
(31:25) So he's using money dev kit which is really exciting and it's kind of cool because you see vibe coders and you see how they're talked about online and you think it's just like someone who's really dumb who can't do anything but in reality they're making more and more sophisticated apps. So what started as an image generation website has now gone to okay you can display your images on the website and now you can receive tips and you know Matt has gone from just simple one-time payments to now he's looking for you know a way to track
(31:58) customers and a way to pay out to customers. So it's super interesting how someone goes from vibe coding something simple to now they're thinking about O and databases and stuff like that. Another example is uh ecurrency hodddler on uh X. He is building Satoku. So it's a Sudoku website where you can pay for more lives when you want to keep going if you've made a mistake and you want to actually keep going.
(32:26) So that's a very simple, easy one-time payment. Uh but now he's gone to add an AI assistant that actually makes you better at Sudoku and you can pay the AI assistant to uh actually um make you better at Sudoku. So he is another example where he's like started with something simple that's vibecoded and now he's wanting to track customers.
(32:48) He's got a leaderboard. He's got all these features he wants to add that are now approaching what someone on X is talking about when they're making like a a very nice uh software as a service website. So, um it's really interesting someone who's really super early, they're already getting into stuff like O databases, customers, all the stuff that um we're looking to add.
(33:11) >> Yeah. What uh what is your ideal customer in your mind? The ideal customer is someone in one of these countries that aren't served by Stripe. They have created an app that they think is valuable and they pick up Money Devkit because they just want to get payments and they don't have any other way to do it.
(33:32) That's where we really want to be. Our early customers are Bitcoiners who excited. I mean, just day one, we've made it so that you can vibe code lightning payments into your website. And for Bitcoin, that kind of wasn't really a thing before. you'd have to run a server somewhere. You'd have to pay a monthly fee here.
(33:50) Um to have just a library that you can take payments with is already like a I think a huge upgrade for Bitcoin payments in the Bitcoin space. But our dream is to be um in India to be in all these all these people who are saying I can't use stripe on X they start using money devkit because those are people who are not necessarily excited about Bitcoin.
(34:11) They're just excited about getting payments. And in a world where more and more people can make apps now and more and more people can make things are that are valuable, being able to give them a payment solution that gets them that value I think is tremendously valuable. >> Yeah. And on the topic of vibe coding, uh not necessarily well maybe we can focus on money devkit, but how somebody who's been u engineering products for pretty large massive corporations block obviously um for many years now.
(34:48) How how profound is the emergence of these AI tools and what is your preferred stack if you don't mind me asking? >> Yeah, it's uh it's amazing. Um, so at block, you know, I said I was a hardware engineer. I'm not actually a software engineer. Um, and we had a team of software engineers building SQL. Uh, we were using Lightning Devkit.
(35:12) Um, and the team would do a lot of the implementation. I would do more like the product work and kind of defining where we're going. But now at Money Devkit with AI, my stack, I use cursor. I think uh people might call me ank now for using cursor. everyone's cloud code and you know on a terminal. Um but with Opus actually in the past month there was a bunch of user feedback that we had in linear and we're like okay we'll get to this.
(35:42) um you know over the past like few weeks I've just been assigning them to Opus through cursor and just getting a lot done and that's not something even over this past year with sonnet and all the other models codecs I was doing work but I was never really confident that we could merge it I would always have you know a developer look at it now with opus I can just you know I need something different on the website I need something different with this this experience I can prompt it.
(36:12) Um, and it's something we merged like that day. So, our speed has really increased. It's really um, dramatic. Um, a lot of people are talking about this online now, like Opus is do oneshotting all these things. It's true. And it's now at a point where instead of being the annoying CEO who's like, "Hey, can we get this in someday?" You know, um, I can just go do it.
(36:34) And so now I'm picking up all those kind of annoying, not quite um super um you know, hard tickets. I can just do all those in a weekend and then we're you know, we're on to the big important stuff. So it's uh it's truly like a a really big change. In terms of the amount of headcount do you think you'll need in the long run? How does it affect that? How like how big do you think you can get money dev kit with? Yeah, we're not really focused on making money devkit like this giant team. Um, we'll grow to whatever we need
(37:11) to, but right now we have um four developers and uh we're hiring a designer soon and I feel pretty good about that. I think that's a really good place to be. Um, and we have a lot of, you know, with money devkit we are doing a lot of specialized stuff behind the scenes. We're doing all the lightning stack.
(37:35) We're running everything that Spiral has basically. Um, and we're doing a lot of kind of special stuff. We're ahead of the the LSP spec. We're doing all these kind of things that are very custom lightning things that AI can't do. So, we'll always need kind of our lightning experts we've been lucky to hire. But um for the feature work when we talk about hey how quickly can we you know make something that matches Stripe in terms of subscriptions and features.
(38:05) Um I think we can get there really quickly. >> What's up freaks? When you take Bitcoin seriously, you start with custody. You want to control your keys, avoid single points of failure, and make sure your savings cannot disappear because you or someone else screwed up. That is what Unchained has been focused on since 2016.
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(39:07) com and use the code TFTCT10 at checkout to get 10% off your new Bitcoin multiig vault. That's TFTCT10 at unchain.com. It would be remiss of us not to touch on it and uh sorry I haven't done it yet, but like non-custodial lightning that's been a white whale in the Bitcoin space for a while and I know the LDK team.
(39:25) I've been talking to Matt Carlo. um in Vegas earlier this year when I saw him in person and he came on the show and said it publicly so I feel comfortable saying he's like this is the year of non-custodial lightning and obviously you guys are implementing that at money devkit what's changed recently to make this viable >> I've always believed in self-custodial lightning and what we're doing at C equals was really to um further that uh the not a ton has changed I think back to 2020 23 when we were doing like mutiny.
(39:58) I was so excited about mutiny. I was a big mutiny use user. The mutiny guys, shout out to Ben and to Tony and to Paul. They took the first draft of self-custody lightning and they did everything they could with it and they found all the bugs. They found all the hard stuff. Um, you know, the LDK team really kind of decided, hey, we want to make mobile lightning work.
(40:22) And that is really hard. And I think I consider like mutiny kind of the first generation of lightning wallets where they figured everything out and uh I think um a lot of those bugs are ironed out now and a lot of that stuff um has been figured out on on the backs of things like mutiny.
(40:41) I think Matt's right in the next year I think we'll see a lot more self-custody lightning. um you know the way everything panned out with the fee market and kind of the early take on self-custody lightning payments people got disillusioned people went and created whole new L2s um was it super necessary I don't know um but yeah I think uh now everything's a lot more refined and we have a lot better idea of how to make things work so uh I mean our entire company is staked I'm self custody lightning right now and it's working amazing.
(41:19) >> What was the biggest thing that MUN figured out? Was it the uh keeping private keys in the secure enclave in the cloud? Is it channel management LSP stuff? >> MUN took LDK kind of to its limit of running in the browser and really being super lightweight which was something no one had really attempted before um to that extent.
(41:42) And I think in doing that they found there's no like one big thing where it was like hey we figured this out and now everything works. It was a bunch of little tiny bugs that um you know pre AI I'm just thinking about that little threeperson team going through all the support and everything. Um it goes back to a little bit of what I was saying before. It's the engineering.
(42:01) It's like in theory everything should have worked with lightning, but in practice when you have users and they're actually finding all those edge cases and corner cases, um it's really hard work, but what you end up with is a much more refined product. So like you know the force closes, the the fee stuff, anchor channels, all these sorts of things have made the experience so much better.
(42:30) Um, and now I think it's up to um, someone with a good amount of kind of product vision to really take what we have, the Lightning primitives, and make it a really nicely polished product. >> What um, what is lacking from Lightning that you would like to see and make your your life easier, if anything? >> My big thing is subscriptions.
(42:49) So, we can make subscriptions work at Money Devkit in a way that I think is okay for someone who's an early adopter, but what Lightning really lacks is a native way to do pull payments. I actually talked about this recently on X said saying uh, "Hey, we should bring back this bolt 12 or current spec.
(43:11) " I think, uh, Rusty's been working on it and, uh, um, Christian responded as well. um just this way to let people do recurring payments. That's how everyone pays their bills. It's how they pay for Netflix. It's a very expected thing that you can sign up for a service, um give your payment details, and just have it work. Um so that's kind of what I'm ringing the bell about nowadays.
(43:37) It's more the payment protocol stuff as opposed to we need this very specific low-level feature. It's the stuff that makes payments work on kind of a higher level. >> What's holding that up right now? Recurring payments. >> I think it's uh you know just the classic uh open-source spec pro process when you're trying to get something that multiple implementations are going to use. Everyone has their own priorities.
(44:04) I think the lightning ecosystem deserves a lot of credit here because you have three different clients that are effectively interoperating on lightning. I think it's actually like a huge achievement and everyone's talking about Bitcoin core all the time, but what's happening in the lightning spec meetings is actually pretty impressive.
(44:24) So, I have to find out exactly what it's going to take. I think to actually get uh something like that in, you need at least two implementations. Um but the big thing to really make that feature work while it's need to adopt it and that's why I say you know if you're uh have a lightning integration um you really want to be on the latest stuff so that you can um interoperate with you know the coolest features.
(44:49) >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's my big question bring this back to like stable coins versus lightning too again. And it seems like the focus in the broader tech, fintech sectors on stable coins. And I think you and I both agree that Lightning is a superior technology. Bitcoin is a superior technology.
(45:08) What do you think it's going to take for the broader market to recognize that? I think just better highle abstractions like what we're doing with money devkit. It's money devkit. Like if you go on our website, we actually don't talk about Bitcoin. We're big Bitcoin believers. We're all Bitcoiners, but we're not trying to sell Bitcoin the asset.
(45:26) We're trying to sell the access and the ability to actually be on the network and actually like accept and receive value. So, I think that's a big part of it. And yeah, I think Bitcoin has a real clear advantage because when you try to use stable coins right now, Marty, I don't know if you've ever like used the stable coin app recently or even go and try to pay a stable coin payment.
(45:51) It's pick your stable coin, pick the chain, only send USDC on base or you'll lose all your money and then it's there's no privacy. This is actually a really terrible experience beyond just the liquidity and the access. People aren't doing this. That's why I'm saying like this is a it's a meme that's gonna go away.
(46:13) Um, you know, I think in the US maybe stable coin rails get tucked under bank accounts or something like that. And that's that's fine. Like um Stripe's going to make more money, but for people around the world who want to take global payments, having something that's really truly interoperable and is very simple is going to be the thing that wins.
(46:33) >> Yeah, >> it's funny. I I have avoided successfully and who knows maybe I'm a loading maybe I'm not doing as much uh research as I should be but I I've observed enough to understand that the friction uh is there and I don't want to I don't want to go through the brain damage of figuring it out >> keep myself honest.
(46:54) >> It's funny like I have contractors that live um that'll do work for us outside the US and I've had them send me stable coin invoices. I'm like, I don't have stable coins. Just send me a Bitcoin address. And they reply in 5 minutes with a Bitcoin address. It's like just it's it's much easier um for me.
(47:11) And obviously I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner, but it's just as easy to spin up a Bitcoin wallet and send an address and receive that money um in the complexity of the stable coin landscape as such where it's like I think there's a lot of noise and there's going to be a lot of capital burnt focusing on that.
(47:29) And that's a testament actually to the pain people feel when they're trying to take global payments. It's like they're going through all that complexity just to be able to get something. So I think we can give them a much better experience um with Bitcoin. >> You know what um what would you say to anybody listening to this? uh how could they get involved and help Money Devkit's uh dream come true in terms of getting Bitcoin payments spread on the internet as bud coding explodes.
(48:00) >> Make something cool. We're at a time where you can just make stuff and we, you know, the barriers to actually writing code have been tremendously lowered. I think a lot of people like some people have like an aversion to AI. I understand where that comes from. But if you have an idea, you can just build it right now and you can go on Replet and you can say, "Hey, make me this.
(48:24) " It's not perfect, but it works really well. And if you want to take payments, um, you can just use money devkit. We're working on integrations that let you very easily get uh, cash in your bank account. So, you don't necessarily have to be a Bitcoin believer, but the more people who use this stuff and show that it's valuable, it's better for the ecosystem because the more people are sending Bitcoin payments, um, better in my mind.
(48:50) >> Yeah, >> it is great. I mean, I think the example that you gave earlier is very in line with how I've been vibe coding. were like when you were starting out money devkit just using sonnet to get the the proof of concept MVP together like everything that I vibe coded that's how I use it like I'll use reply or cloud code get it to a certain point then have the self-awareness to understand that I don't understand the u the the holes that could exist in the thing I vibe coded and then I find a competent developer and say hey here's this
(49:28) Do you see what I'm trying to build here? Like, can you make sure it's not insecure and actually works and hand it off and the thing gets built? I think it's that's another important thing to recognize with vibe coding. If you're not a software engineer and you don't understand um where you could footgun yourself, you can get it to a certain place, find a developer who does know what they're doing and they can take it from there pretty.
(49:54) >> Yeah. I mean, that's how I felt in April. I think now I feel like you could probably just send it. Um, if you're going to do if you're going to build a business where you're handling uh or helping people uh you know, send and receive payments, maybe have someone look at that. But for most ideas, they're pretty low stakes and you know, you're not like handling other people's money.
(50:17) Um, and if you're using money devkit, we've got all that taken care of for you. So, I would say, you know, don't uh don't lose your confidence, Marty. I think you could send it without a developer right now. >> Well, I still need to get better at the uh just like the back end. And so like setting up versell I'm still learning how to do that like getting the domain setting up the DNS like all that all that stuff that system admin stuff that uh I not trained in getting more familiar with it but it's uh stuff like that where I need the the last mile
(50:51) help. >> Yeah. The cool thing is you can you can actually learn a lot too like just telling the agent to do it and if it can't do it a lot of times it'll be like well here's what I would do. Um, and yeah, there is still I think I'm a little bit of advantage because I definitely am a bit of a nerd and I'm, you know, running nodes and doing all that stuff.
(51:11) So, there is some base level knowledge, but you can get really far. >> Yeah. So, having been in Bitcoin for a while now and being on the cutting edge of building products that have touched millions of people, um uh what are your thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin broadly? Um the network, the um sort of social movement behind it, I don't know, for lack of a better term, the awareness, the brand awareness.
(51:42) Is Bitcoin exceeding your expectations? Has it has it come up short in 2026? Is it right where you thought it would be? Like how um how's Bitcoin doing in your mind? >> I like where Bitcoin is, honestly. I think we've come really far. Um I think we still focus on things that are too low level that people don't care about.
(52:02) uh most people HTTP TCP these protocols that run the internet very important there are very passionate people who have put a lot of time into making that work and you know they're there with the Linux Foundation all those uh mailing lists and they're still slaving away at the low-level things that make things work but most people they just use Facebook they don't care about HTTP or TCP or anything like that so when I think about Bitcoin.
(52:33) I see us focusing a lot on like the very low-level things that no one cares about and not a lot of people are building the highlevel stuff that people will actually care about. So, you know, I'm really happy where the tech is. I think there's still things we have to do. There's always upgrades we have to do. There's always things we need to fix.
(52:52) Nothing is perfect. But I think the real focus for Bitcoin 2026 and beyond is making things that people actually want to use. And that's a different kind of heart. Like it's not the spec work and you know the interoperability and you know um consensus and the memp pool stuff.
(53:13) It's more taking it up to a level where someone's actually using it and finding out how they break it where the sharp edges are. Um it's different hard work that we need to be doing. Um, and that's why I say also if you have an idea for an app, um, and you want to take payments or you want to send payments or you want to make a wallet, you should just do it because we need it.
(53:33) >> This may be controversial, but do you think we need better taste makers on Bitcoin app development specifically? I >> Oh, absolutely. Um, Maples is actually really good with this. He makes some cool stuff. Um, and you know, when you talk about taste, there's like technical taste, which is actually a big part of it.
(53:54) like just the way you use Bitcoin and Lightning. There's like a certain technical taste there, but there's also just yeah the higher level like more broadly appealing taste of what do people want to use? Um, and it's not even just I think when people talk about taste, they're thinking like the way something looks, but the way something is used and feels.
(54:14) Um, a lot of people out there the first thing you do when you have a new cool tool uh with a bunch of like configuration options is you make an app and you expose every option and then you can configure everything. And you as a person who appreciates the technology, you're like, "Yes, this is so cool. I can do all these things.
(54:30) " But someone who just needs a technology but isn't actually um isn't actually into it. They want the very highly opinionated paved path that does everything for you. And that's what we need more of in Bitcoin. >> Yeah. What is an app that doesn't exist that you think should exist and could basically unlock that that recognition? Because I agree.
(54:54) I think Bitcoin app developers or people integrating Bitcoin into their app. We still haven't crossed the chasm of like tapping into the zeitgeist and being part of something that goes viral. Um, I mean outside of like Cash App and all that, but those are like exchanges and payment wallets, but I'm looking for something outside of Bitcoin that integrates it in a um novel way that the product's so good that even though it has Bitcoin integrated and that may seem to be a hurdle for most people want to use it, the the experience is so good that they figure
(55:26) out how to use Bitcoin anyway. >> The big thing for me was Money Devkit. That's why I went and made that. Um, but beyond money devkit, it's um all these websites. I did a video on this. There's all these websites where you just Google, you have to do one thing. I did um SVG to ping.
(55:44) You have like a nice SVG logo. You want to put it somewhere else. You have to make it a ping file. I could, you know, there's probably some terminal app that I could install that'll do it super easily. But what I actually do is I Google SVG to ping. I go to a really gross website with a million ads on it and I put it in. Um, so I made a website where you can do that, but instead of seeing a bunch of gross ads, you just do a quick micro payment and then you're done.
(56:09) There's so much lowhanging fruit like that that I think could be a lot nicer. Um, and yeah, just like anything where you know, you can you just want to do global payments and you just want it to work. Um, just anything that's cool, just make it, add payments to it. There's a bunch of really interesting industries that Stripe doesn't serve.
(56:30) It's beyond just uh, you know, the 120 countries they don't serve. It's like fortunetelling apps. Um, one of the coolest things I actually saw recently was uh, this website called Chart 2 AI and it's uh, are you into astrology, Marty? You gotta >> I I there are many people in my uh my my family uh that are into astrology.
(56:52) My sister and my wife specifically. >> They would love this because basically what it does, you put in your information. It gives you a birth chart and then somebody has just gone through and iterated with AI to basically put in all the astrology knowledge ever. and they've made it so you basically put in your information, you get this super long prompt and you plug it into chat GPT and it gives you like the best horoscope reading you could ever get.
(57:18) Like it was I I did it, you know, I'm not a big astrology guy, but you know, just see see what it's like. It was like telling me about my life, like current life at that moment in ways I was like, wait, how do you know this? So, um, that's really cool. But the interesting thing, so you should try this chart 2.ai.
(57:37) But the interesting interesting thing is Stripe actually doesn't serve fortuneelling services. So if you are, you know, you're driving along and you see like the psychic uh on the side of the road, um they can't use Stripe because, you know, it's a high-risisk industry for that. Maybe some chargebacks or something like that. If you make an app like that, you basically need to use Money Devkit.
(57:57) There's a lot of businesses like that where it's like totally legal. Everything's above board, but you can't actually be banked if you're in that business. So, hey, maybe your uh your wife or um your sister, you said um maybe they want to make an app with uh with astrology or something like that. They could use money def.
(58:16) >> Uh I'm going to have to give I'm going to have to give them the advice. Ladies, it's time to start vibe coding. We can work on it together. Um this is fascinating. This is awesome. Thank you. Um thank you for building money devkit number one. I I think I completely agree. We need something as simple as like an API call and CLI to get payments integrated in apps.
(58:39) And the fact that I think the way you've approached the market specifically building a replet MCP at a time when it's one of the hottest companies in the world is strategically uh incredibly sappy. Um, and so I hope and obviously Amjad is a Bitcoiner too and don't want to dox anybody, but I know there's Bitcoiners and uh very strategic places within Replet specifically.
(59:05) And so uh it will be cool to see if they lean into it and uh do they do you know if they have any plans of like highlighting money devkit within Replet like hey if you want to add payments here's one of the easiest options. >> Jad already blasted us out. Um, it's a dream for Replet because we were talking to Replet a few years ago and you know they were talking about how they had all these users but 80% of them were outside the US.
(59:29) That's where Replet started really with the underserved >> and now I think maybe that balance is a little different but they have 30 million users and I'm willing to bet a big proportion of them just can't monetize these cool websites that they're making. So I think it's a match made in heaven and uh of course we're talking to to Replet now about how we can uh keep going with that.
(59:50) But um yeah, it's exactly where Jod wants to be. He's talked about how access to creating software and creating cool things is kind of Replet's mission and our mission is access for payments. So I think it's um you know a really cool thing and I hope we can go further with it. >> Oh yeah.
(1:00:10) Where can uh anybody is so curious find out more about money devkit more about you um get involved? >> For me, I'm Nick Slaney on X for Moneydevkit. Just go to moneydevkit.com docs.moneydevkit.com. Um just ask your agent to add moneydevkit to your app. And uh yeah, feel free to ping me if you need help. I'm happy to uh hop in replet multiplayer and uh you know, help you out if something's getting stuck.
(1:00:36) But the idea is you just ask your agent to uh add my devkit and it just works. >> Go do it freaks. I know a lot of you are vibe coding out there. Get on it. Get on it. Nick, thank you for your time. Uh this has been incredible. Hopefully we could do it again at some point in the future. >> Thanks a lot, Marty.
(1:00:53) Yeah, I had I had a good time. Glad to happy to do it again. >> Awesome. Peace and love, freaks. Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there.
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