Key Takeaways

Michael Goldstein, aka Bitstein, presents a sweeping philosophical and economic case for going “all in” on Bitcoin, arguing that unlike fiat, which distorts capital formation and fuels short-term thinking, Bitcoin fosters low time preference, meaningful saving, and long-term societal flourishing. At the heart of his thesis is “hodling for good”—a triple-layered idea encompassing permanence, purpose, and the pursuit of higher values like truth, beauty, and legacy. Drawing on thinkers like Aristotle, Hoppe, and Josef Pieper, Goldstein redefines leisure as contemplation, a vital practice in aligning capital with one’s deepest ideals. He urges Bitcoiners to think beyond mere wealth accumulation and consider how their sats can fund enduring institutions, art, and architecture that reflect a moral vision of the future.

Best Quotes

“Let BlackRock buy the houses, and you keep the sats.”

“We're not hodling just for the sake of hodling. There is a purpose to it.”

“Fiat money shortens your time horizon… you can never rest.”

“Savings precedes capital accumulation. You can’t build unless you’ve saved.”

“You're increasing the marginal value of everyone else’s Bitcoin.”

“True leisure is contemplation—the pursuit of the highest good.”

“What is Bitcoin for if not to make the conditions for magnificent acts of creation possible?”

“Bitcoin itself will last forever. Your stack might not. What will outlast your coins?”

“Only a whale can be magnificent.”

“The market will sell you all the crack you want. It’s up to you to demand beauty.”

Conclusion

This episode is a call to reimagine Bitcoin as more than a financial revolution—it’s a blueprint for civilizational renewal. Michael Goldstein reframes hodling as an act of moral stewardship, urging Bitcoiners to lower their time preference, build lasting institutions, and pursue truth, beauty, and legacy—not to escape the world, but to rebuild it on sound foundations.

Timestamps

00:00 - Intro
00:50 - Michael’s BBB presentation Hodl for Good
07:27 - Austrian principles on capital
15:40 - Fiat distorts the economic process
23:34 - Bitkey
24:29 - Hodl for Good triple entendre
29:52 - Bitcoin benefits everyone
39:05 - Unchained
40:14 - Leisure theory of value
52:15 - Heightening life
1:15:48 - Breaking from the chase makes room for magnificence
1:32:32 - Nakamoto Institute’s mission

Transcript

(00:00) Fiat money is by its nature a disturbance. If money is being continually produced, especially at an uncertain rate, these uh policies are really just redistribution of wealth. Most are looking for number to go up post hyper bitcoinization. The rate of growth of bitcoin would be more reflective of the growth of the economy as a whole.
(00:23) Ultimately, capital requires knowledge because it requires knowing there is something that you can add to the structures of production to lengthen it in some way that will take time but allow you to have more in the future than you would today. Let Black Rockck buy the houses and you keep the sats, not the other way around.
(00:41) You wait until later for Larry Frink to try to sell you a [Music] mansion. And we're live just like that. Just like that. 3:30 on a Friday, Memorial Day weekend. It's a good good good way to end the week and start the holiday weekend. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Thank you for having me here. Thank you for coming. I wore this hat specifically because I think it's I think it's very apppropo uh to the conversation we're going to have which is I hope an extension of the presentation you gave at Bitblock Boom Huddle for good. You were working on
(01:24) that for many weeks leading up to uh the conference and explaining how you were structuring it. I think it's a very important topic to discuss now as the Bitcoin price is hitting new all-time highs and people are trying to understand what am I doing with Bitcoin? Like you have you have the different sort of factions within Bitcoin.
(01:47) Uh get on a Bitcoin standard, get on zero, spend as much Bitcoin as possible. You have the sailors of the world are saying buy Bitcoin, never sell, die with your Bitcoin. And I think you do a really good job in that presentation. And I just think your understanding overall of Bitcoin is incredible to put everything into context. It's not either or.
(02:07) It really depends on what you want to accomplish. Yeah, it's definitely there there is no actual one-sizefits-all um for I mean nearly anything in this world. So um yeah, I mean first of all I mean there was it was the first conference talk I had given in maybe five years. I think the one prior to that uh was um bit block boom 2019 which was my meme talk which uh has uh become infamous and notorious.
(02:43) So uh there was also a lot of like high expectations uh you know rockstar dev uh has has treated that you know uh that that talk with a lot of reference. a lot of people have enjoyed it and he was expecting this one to be, you know, the greatest one ever, which is a little bit of a little bit of a uh a burden to live up to those kinds of standards.
(03:08) Um, but you know, because I don't give a lot of talks. Um, you know, I I I like to uh try to bring ideas that might even be ideas that are common. So, something like hodling, we all talk about it constantly. uh but try to bring it from a little bit of a different angle and try to give um a little bit of uh new light to it.
(03:31) I alsove I've I've always enjoyed kind of coming at things from a third angle. Um whenever there's, you know, there's there's all these little debates that we have in in Bitcoin and sometimes it's nice to try to uh step out of it and look at it a little more uh kind of objectively and find ways of understanding it that incorporate the truths of of all of them.
(03:58) uh you know cuz I think we should always be kind of as much as possible after ultimate truth. Um so with this one um yeah I was kind of finding that that sort of golden mean. So uh um yeah and I actually I think about that a lot is uh you know Aristotle has his his concept of the golden mean. So it's like any any virtue is sort of between two vices um because you can you can always you can always take something too far.
(04:27) So you're you're always trying to find that right balance. Um so someone who is uh courageous you know uh one of the vices uh on one side is being basically reckless. I I can't remember what word he would use. Uh but effectively being reckless and just wanting to put yourself in danger for no other reason than just you know the thrill of it.
(04:50) Um and then on the other side you would just have cowardice which is like you're unwilling to put yourself um at any risk at any time. Um, and courage is right there in the middle where it's understanding when is the right time uh to put your put yourself, you know, in in the face of danger um and take it on. And so um in some sense this this was kind of me uh in in some ways like I'm obviously a partisan of hodling.
(05:20) Um, I've for, you know, a long time now talked about the, um, why huddling is good, why people do it, why we should expect it. Um, but still trying to find that that sort of golden mean of like yes, huddle, but also what are we hodling for? And it's not we're we're not hodddling just merely for the sake of hodddling.
(05:45) There there is a a purpose to it. And we should think about that. And that would also help us think more about um what are the benefits of of spending, when should we spend, why should we spend, what should we spend on um to actually give light to that sort of side of the debate. Um so that was that was what I was kind of trying to trying to get into.
(06:09) Um, as well as also just uh at the same time despite all the talk of hodling, there's always this perennial uh there's always this perennial dislike of hodlers because we're treated as uh as if um we're just free riding the network or we're just greedy or you know any of these things. And I wanted to show how uh huddling does serve a real economic purpose.
(06:36) Um, and it does benefit the individual, but it also does uh it it has actual real social um benefits as well beyond merely the individual. Um, so I wanted to give that sort of defense of hodling as well to look at it from um a a broader position than just merely I'm trying to get rich. Um uh because even the person who uh that is all they want to do um just like you know your your pure number grow up go up moonboy even that behavior has positive ramifications on on the economy.
(07:14) And while we might look at them and have uh judgments about their particular choices for them as an individual, we shouldn't discount that uh their actions are having positive positive effects for the rest of the economy. Yeah. So, let's dive into that just not even in the context of Bitcoin because I think you did a great job of this in the presentation.
(07:36) just you've done a good job of this consistently throughout the years that I've known you. Just from like a first principles Austrian economics perspective, what is the idea around capital accumulation, low time preference and deployment of that capital like what what like getting getting into like the nitty-gritty and then applying it to Bitcoin? Yeah, it's it's a big question and um in many ways I mean I I even I barely scratched the surface.
(08:05) uh I I can't claim to have read uh all the volumes of Bombber works, you know, capital and interest and and stuff like that. Um but I think there's some some sort of basic concepts that we can look at that we can uh draw a lot out. Um the first uh I guess let's write that. So repeat so like capital time preference. Yeah. Well, I guess getting more broad like why saving? Why do people save? um what should they plan to do with that savings? Yeah.
(08:39) And what are the externalities throughout the broader economy of individuals doing that in aggregate? Yeah. I mean it always goes back to you know the very beginning is like you know humans are acting purposefully uh because they have um they they believe that they can um perform some action that will have an effect on the world that will uh remove some uneasiness and basically improve how they how they feel.
(09:08) Um, and when you're doing this, um, you're always you're you're employing some means. It may even literally just be, you know, your own body, um, or something. If you're, you know, if you're Robin Robinson Crusoe, uh, that's that's how a lot of economists like to start this is just you're you're a one man on a on a desert island.
(09:29) Um, you know, you only have your body. Um, and you need to go, you know, make shelter, make food, find food, etc., et etc. Um so you start using your means uh your body uh the the resources around you and so on and so forth. And um what happens is you know like as you're doing that um you may start to realize that there are ways to use means to uh produce goods that are not meant to be consumed.
(10:03) So, you're not trying to uh you know, may maybe you're trying to catch fish. Um you you make goods that um you realize will help you catch more fish. Um uh because you want to be able to eat and eat more and and know that you have uh food available. So, those kinds of goods, that's what we call capital. Um and those goods don't even need to be physical.
(10:29) It can be knowledge um you know or other sort of like non-physical things. Capital is is something that we it's a it's a psychological categorization that an actor chooses. So you know one man's capital is is another man's consumer good um uh or or worthless. Um, but it's not uh there there's not just like a magical thing called capital.
(10:58) Um, which I guess like a lot of Marxists and uh think as well as uh like Keynesians treat capital often as uh you'll see it in kind of Keynesian neocclassical kind of stuff. it all treats it as sort of these like black boxes of uh just you know here's a factory and it's like as if it's just like all other factories um but it's really you know a conglomeration of all kinds of very particular goods but when you have capital now you can produce more things um and but the thing is in order to make that capital you need to know that in that time period
(11:41) that you're not actually out catching fish that you'll still have fish to eat in the time it takes you to make, you know, the the spear or then the net or then, you know, and so on and so forth. Um, each of those times you actually need goods available for that time period that you're not specifically trying to get those goods.
(12:03) And so uh you have to recognize one you have to recognize that there's a possibility of doing something that can produce more in the future. Um and then you also have to recognize uh you know uh that uh or you need to have enough savings uh to actually get through that time. And uh this is where the concept of time preference uh comes into play.
(12:29) Um because if if you know that um humans sort of necessarily want goods sooner um uh than later. So uh you you would prefer things uh now or earlier than than waiting. But whenever you have uh some kind of production, production necessarily takes time. So your ability to sort of withstand that time both in a physical sense of uh literally having something to feed you but also uh you know being sort of psychological psychologically willing to wait it out.
(13:16) that uh that that requires having some some form of uh lowered uh time preference where it's like I'm willing to wait because I know that there will be more for me later and I prefer that future to what I could have right now. So that's that's where time preference plays in. Um and as as an economy develops, whether it's one person or, you know, adding on, um they're able to hopefully continually identify new ways of uh sort of lengthening that structure of production.
(13:58) We call that roundabout production because it's you're you're doing things that aren't actually related to literally getting a fish. Um but all of the capital goods needed to do it. And the more you can lengthen that structure of production while knowing that you're actually going to get more of what you want, um obviously the the more goods uh you'll be able to have.
(14:22) Uh but along the way you need to be able to lower your time preference um in order to do so. But also the actual success of that can also lower your time preference because now you actually have more goods. So your your time um uh is is valued differently because you actually have something available so you can um more safely you know rest and look into the future.
(14:49) Um so savings is effectively uh at its at its core uh it's the uh just having the goods available to withstand all of the potential uncertainties that you have to deal with through the production process. Um and then there's uh also investment um which came up in my talk in in the form of capital goods of you know something that you might actually use your bitcoin for.
(15:19) Um uh that's taking your savings and putting it into some productive good, some capital good that can help uh create more future goods. Um, and uh, yeah, I don't I hopefully that's like a decent that's a good covering of of what you asked to I don't know if I missed something. No, I think you covered it well.
(15:44) And just to go a little bit further before we get into like the triple antandra of huddle for good. Uh, how's that process been disturbed in recent decades? Yeah. So, um I would say that uh fiat money is is by its nature a a disturbance of that process and a very notable one and the one that obviously bitcoiners are kind of most focused on um and uh the reason being is that at a basic level if money is being um continually produced um especially at an uncertain rate um But even even at an exact you know formulaic rate um your your mythical 2% um in that case uh that
(16:36) means that whatever savings you have uh necessarily uh the the the time that it can last. So you you you receive money that you could put away in savings. Um, but if you do that, um, every time money is being printed, the amount of time that that money can last, uh, to suit your needs is less than it otherwise would be, um, in the market.
(17:02) And so your time horizon is necessarily brought shorter. And now it might actually stimulate you to go invest uh, with your money. you might find yourself uh you know seeking out various investments. Um but these two are focused on shorter term profits uh than they otherwise would be. So your your the way that you invest also changes.
(17:34) Um so uh you know we we see this in the marketplace of you know especially you in the sort of VC world. You can see how this uh plays out where people are chasing after whatever kind of stock picks they can for the sake of getting some short-term profit that helps uh at least keep them afloat. But also they want to make it uh extra big.
(18:00) you know, get rich quick because, you know, that gives you more breathing room. Um, uh, but that that sort of behavior is, uh, exacerbated by the fact that your money is continually, uh, devalued. Um, but then of course, if you're if you're also adding in an uncertainty to how much and when, it makes it even it makes this this even harder to rationally plan out.
(18:27) And so you're even less interested in really uh treating uh just plain cash as something uh to to hold. And so now uh we we live in a world that is uh heavily debt financed uh as opposed to self- financed through savings. Um, something I didn't mention, um, that I think is is crucial, um, especially like to understand, um, what what tends to just be sort of the the Austrian position is that, uh, savings precedes um, capital accumulation um, and capital production.
(19:03) You can't you can't produce unless you already have resources that you can manipulate into something else. Um, you can't you can't just snap your fingers. So whenever whenever um uh the um you know the government you know stimulates the economy what they're really doing is just inducing you to uh put that savings into investment.
(19:31) Um but often often we'll hear um economists talk as if um savings is just this thing that uh is withholding from uh investing which is also why they want to do that because they think uh saving is bad um because you're not you're not doing anything according to them. Um and so uh they they're trying to induce you to to put it into something.
(19:58) But the key there is that um you're only able to actually start doing anything in so far as the savings are actually there that there is something to save from. Um so it often the these these uh policies are really just uh redistribution of wealth. Um, and then it gets especially bad when you artificially uh, you know, change the interest rate, which is basically like kind of this kind of societal measure of time preference, so to speak, based on how people price uh, money and such.
(20:33) If if you artificially change that, you have situations uh which cause the business cycle which is people begin doing projects that they don't actually have the savings for and then at some point you know you're you're uh Mises gives the example of like you know building a building a wall or building a house and uh you think you have all the bricks and in the process you run out of bricks and realize oh well this project is is over so you have to just kind of liquidate everything and then everyone down the line who is lending to you then also uh
(21:08) takes that hit. And so the boom is yes, look at us, we're we're doing all these things. Look at all these things we're building. But then the bust is realizing that you don't actually have the savings you thought you had and everything comes crumbling down. So it's it's very important for society to um uh allow these things to uh operate in a way that describes or reflects reality rather than merely what you wish uh to be.
(21:36) Yeah. Leads to a misallocation of capital. Do something hoarder. Yes. Do not save. Yes. Do something. Yes. And it leads to half-built buildings and projects and Yeah. societies in aggregate overall if you do it long enough. And I I think you know an important thing there is like you know why you know why hold like we said it's like it's dealing with uncertainty.
(21:56) So a lot of people who uh they they have that attitude towards hoarders hoarding being you know just this pjorative towards saving um is this idea that it's unproductive because the cash is just sitting there. Why aren't you doing anything with it? Um, but it might be unproductive to you because it's not literally going towards something you want it to go to.
(22:21) Um, but people are broadly speaking rational in the sense that they use their brains to identify means to attain uh particular ends. So if they're doing something, they're probably doing it for a reason. And when people are holding money, um, it's because they have more uncertainty about the future.
(22:42) Um and so that that's what the money allows because because it being the most liquid good they know if they have money whatever opportunities good and bad arise. So uh you know a positive opportunity you come across something that you didn't know even know existed before and now you have the cash to to get a hold of it.
(23:00) Um or a negative thing like uh there's a there's a you know a bit of a disaster and you need to uh weather the storm. um both of those things. Having money allows you to get past that. And so when people feel have that feeling like there's probably more of these uh potential situations, both good and bad, coming my way, they're going to want to hold cash.
(23:21) And that's that's actually productive from that individual point of view. Um, so it's it's uh it's uh very very silly to to look at that as unproductive because if it was unproductive, people wouldn't be doing it. Sup freaks, this rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey.
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(24:28) That's bit.world, code TFTC20. In that context, you're huddling for good. And that good being the ability to opportunistically take advantage of something that is unforeseen that may arise that is seen as a positive opportunity. and conversely able to weather a a storm in the future. So you're hodddling for Yes.
(24:50) Um good in the sense that you will be able to repair your roof or do something if some emergency arises. Yes. And and I think Bitcoin hodddlers are are doing a bit of bit of both. The real speculation that all hodddlers are dealing with that that's usually really motivating them is the number go up.
(25:11) Um so it's effectively more focused on the the positive but also that then in turn means that oh more negatives uh would be able to be uh addressed in that case. Um but they obviously most are looking for number to go up and they desire that. Um and with that it's it's very well possible that you know what you would see uh post hyper bitcoinization when the economy has uh settled on a bitcoin standard um the rate of growth of bitcoin would no longer be uh as high as it is now.
(25:47) It would be more reflective of the growth of the economy as a whole. And so therefore, um, people would find more, uh, investment opportunities that would, uh, have, uh, a higher return than in in purchasing power than just holding, uh, the Bitcoin. And so you you would start to see more investment.
(26:10) And in fact, the reason that there would be continued economic growth would be from the fact that hodlers, some other hodler out there in the universe had seen one of these opportunities and they took it and they were successful and wealth was generated. So there's more goods in the marketplace and then it gets reflected back into uh you know the the the purchasing power in the economy as a whole.
(26:41) So holding holding in that state um where you know with the the you know global money or whatever um that that is can be uh sort of analogized to um people investing in the economy as a whole. So you're not investing in any particular structure of production. You're you're just investing uh in the economy as a whole. And the reason why that's possible is because when you hold money um a sound money where it's not being there's there's no there's no more new Bitcoin um being made or or very little still being mined. Um, what that means is when you
(27:20) hold, you're increasing the marginal value of everyone else's Bitcoin, which means that their purchasing power is increasing to that point where some of them start to see uh, this purchasing power gives me opportunities that I didn't previously have. And now I can self- finance um some you know venture um or or even just you know getting a consumer good that itself uh you know um you know uh benefits some other uh line of of uh business um and so on and so forth.
(27:57) So um the reason why there's economic growth uh is because others were doing exactly that and so you're sort of investing in them and then uh hopefully you know I would I would recommend people uh trying to imagine what would you actually spend on um but you have this this positive externality um on everyone uh by by holding um you're you're it's not just for yourself it's actually uh rather are charitable in in a sense.
(28:28) Um that sort of uh gratuitous benefit to everyone else that you're you're increasing their um potential uh to be able to uh acquire more. And was it Holman who you referenced in the in the uh the presentation who wrote a book about yeah this whole concept his his newest book uh which is a tremendous book. It's it's one of the most interesting economics books I've read.
(28:55) Um, so, uh, I'm still one one of my I've I've put a lot of memes out there. Um, but I think one of my favorite has has always been that I, uh, got a lot of Bitcoiners to read his book, The Ethics of Money Production. And he brings a similar lens, um, to the idea of, uh, gifts and charity um, in his book uh, that came out, I guess it was last year, um, called Abundant Generosity in the State.
(29:22) And it's talking about um the uh like I said gift giving charity um the the gratuitous effects of free exchange um and also how government intervention um uh destroys that ability to uh give gifts and and creates gratuitous bads um on the economy in the form of NOS's just taking taxpayer monies and basically yeah yeah just huge huge griffs Lots of grifters.
(29:53) No. And I think we were texting about this the other week cuz independently I was at Bitblock but I didn't show up till after you gave the presentation. So I saw for the first time earlier this week and I was a bit proud of myself because I was on a podcast last week and the last question that was posed to me was what would you say to an individual that buys Bitcoin now and an individual decides not to like what's their life going to look like in 10 years? My response is basically the individual who buys Bitcoin now and saves using Bitcoin
(30:24) as a savings vehicle, they're going to be I I believe uh very happy with their decision and their life will be benefited massively for making that decision. The person who doesn't decide to huddle now, they're probably not going to benefit as much uh from Bitcoin directly as the individual decided to start holding now.
(30:46) But their life will be better because others will have decided to have used Bitcoin as a savings vehicle, lowered their time preference, built up an amount of purchasing power that allows them to go invest in productive endeavors in the economy. And the person even if you didn't buy Bitcoin will benefit from that because the economy overall should be better. Yes.
(31:06) And I I agree completely. Uh the the last person um Yes. there they they wouldn't get gains necessarily. Um although if they start saving right then and there uh there is no top uh to Bitcoin. Bitcoin goes up forever. Um so you know with that in mind they actually could continue to get gains. Um they just wouldn't have uh gotten gains from uh speculating on that future coming to fruition.
(31:39) Um, and perhaps they they might uh be a little bitter about that, but hopefully not. Hopefully they'll get over it. Um, because they would now be living in a Bitcoin world. Um and in an economy that is running on a Bitcoin standard which is much more conducive to uh you know you know prosperity you know uh capital accumulation, free exchange, all these good things that lead to economic growth and uh you know increase the uh just the the amount of of goods that we have in the world to to make use of uh to make our lives better.
(32:13) Um this is something that I think is is so interesting about um uh time preference and uh kind of this this idea of of gratuitity uh gratuitous goods meaning um these are these are goods that are not intended. They just sort of happen and you can have gratuitous bads as well um collateral damage from from some activity.
(32:39) Um but free exchange has a lot of uh gratuitous goods which Hollesman writes about and um specifically and I referenced it in the talk uh Hans Herman Hapa uh the very first uh um actually the very first sections the very first chapter uh essay uh in uh his book democracy that got that failed is talking about just the nature of time preference.
(33:03) Um, and this is this is prior to even getting into anything about, you know, government or anything at all. Uh, which of course there's there's much you could say about how that affects uh time preference, but he's just talking about time preference itself. And he basically alludes to this exact concept in such a such an interesting way because he he points out the fact that um you know such whoever it is that exists in the economy um as someone around them is lowering their time preference, adding knowledge uh to the world, creating more goods through
(33:42) their own uh self-interested uh capital accumul population, capital, you know, production and so on and so forth. Because there's more goods in the world, the marginal value of all goods is going down for even the the poorest uh person or the um sort of highest time preference person for whatever reason. Uh they're high time preference.
(34:10) Um all goods are are now marginally cheaper. So whatever money that they receive in their from their labor um is now worth more. And so they're inherently lower time preference um than than they were before because their relation of time to goods on the market has changed. Um so that is that is an incredible revelation and goes exact to exactly what you're saying.
(34:41) It's like this doesn't just apply to Bitcoin. uh rather what you're describing with Bitcoin, that last Bitcoiner, uh that's actually just uh one application of this more fundamental fact that what we do in the marketplace um can benefit the market as a whole. Um even the people that you're not thinking about, I mean, some some uh you know, fat cat capitalist or whatever is not necessarily thinking about every single um person in the market.
(35:13) Um and yet, uh in so far as he's successful in a in a free market where you have a rule of law and everything is just and and all of that. Um in so far as if he's if he's earning profits, it's because he was creating wealth and it is ultimately having that downstream effect. And then when you have things like knowledge um which you know comes from you know explicitly people teaching one another or implicitly of just kind of picking up uh whether through you know anything from mimemetics to just trying to reverse engineers like how did that guy
(35:46) do it? I want to do that too and you just kind of pick them on that knowledge spreads like wildfire. And so in many ways people become smarter um as well. Um and so you know and and the more uh knowledge you have uh regarding uh your your available means to the the the possible ends the more you can get get out of the economy and also the the more productive you are.
(36:15) Um and I I think that's incredible. Um, a nice example of this would be and I think it's almost relevant to consider um in in today because there's a lot of talk about AI and and labor and so on and so forth and I I don't know how that will fully flesh out. Um, so I'm not I'm not trying to comment on that, but just at least thinking up until now.
(36:38) Um, when we look at someone um like a uh like think like a barber, uh a barber is not, you know, it's it's not like a prestigious job and yet it's one that we all need. Um you know, most most people get haircuts. um if he just continues doing his job, like the job hasn't really changed that much in my life.
(37:06) Like all these things have changed over the past few decades, but like the barberh shop experience is is basically the exact same for me uh as it was when I was a little boy. And um uh you know, the the price has gone up because of inflation. Um but you know, I imagine the the margins are are just the same.
(37:27) Um, but the thing is is that person their labor over time is actually becoming more valuable despite the fact that there's nothing about it that's really changing. They're still just sitting you down and cutting your hair, uh, getting a, you know, basic cut, but their labor is ultimately more productive because everyone else in the economy, you have more you have more capital goods.
(37:52) Um, so everyone any any unit of labor that you're putting into the world has a larger downstream effect of how much is produced from that labor. And so when you're getting a haircut, um that uh the the the time saved, you know, it takes, you know, 20 30 minutes or whatever to get a haircut, that 20 30 minutes is actually more valuable to you now than it was back then in the sense of the opportunity cost of what goods could have been produced uh had I um been working more instead of getting that haircut.
(38:32) And so uh even the barber uh you know the the barbers have not getting you know the barbers are not getting uh you know uh poorer and poorer. They're actually um uh you know helping. Now that's that's assuming a sound economy. Um I'm I'm sure a lot of barbers are are hurting a lot like I think everyone is um in this uh inflationary economy.
(38:54) Um but in a sound economy um that kind of labor it's it only becomes more valuable. Um and so uh and then and then if you add Bitcoin into the mix, you know, supercharge, you know, sound money, it only benefits those people even more. US Now has a strategic Bitcoin reserve. That's not clickbait. It's a policy directive. Unchained and the Bitcoin Policy Institute just dropped a new report and are hosting a live event to unpack it.
(39:17) It's called the strategic Bitcoin reserve era begins. We've got Congressman Nick Beich, Matthew Pines, and Joe Bernett breaking down how the first 100 days of the new administration flipped the policy script on Bitcoin. Go to unchained.com/tc to register and read the full report. That's unchained.com/tc.
(39:39) diving deeper into this concept like shifting towards the idea of leisure like what is true leisure and how does the ability to exercise leisure as you defined it in the presentation actually compound and accelerate this type of productivity growth and and value creation. Yeah. Um and so it's it's somewhat indirect. Um I guess I would say is like I was trying to say was like okay what do we what do we uh hddle? So, as you said earlier, huddle for good.
(40:09) I was I was uh you know, rather uh proud of myself for for, you know, coming up with a what I thought was a clever title. Um because of being a triple entandra, the first one just being was like, well, no, there's a reason you would huddle for good. You'd huddle forever. Um and then the second one is like, well, huddling for good in the terms of I want to huddle for good stuff.
(40:30) Uh meaning um I don't I don't want just what I have today. I want something better later. I want I want my children to have a better life than I had and I want my grandchildren to have a better life than uh my children and so on and so forth. I think every every normal person you know wants that uh in the world and so um you know the question is like okay well what's this good stuff and one of them is like you just you just hodddle so that you know number go up and now you can have more of something or you can just have like the nicer version or
(41:02) whatever. Um, then there's uh I talked about uh capital goods. So, you know, the the mar market doesn't necessarily magically make exactly what you want. Maybe if you just want commodity items that kind of everyone wants, but there might be things that you specifically want and there's no guarantee that the market is going to find the most efficient way unless you actually uh participate in in uh developing those structures of production.
(41:33) So, um, so for the people with with means, that's a great way to, uh, to try to, uh, actually help the market provide what you really want. Um, and, uh, trying to think what there was like another thing, but, uh, the big one that you were asking about then was was leisure. And I think this is a an important one that, uh, Bitcoiners should should think a lot about.
(41:59) Um, and when I say leisure, I don't mean just sitting around watching Netflix, you know, just taking a breather on the on the weekend before uh, you know, uh, you go back to to your wage cage, you know, it's like leisure uh, leisure is a is about contemplation. It's about um uh you know communing yourself with with philosophy and the arts and science and actually uh coming to um see reality uh more face to face and engaged with just you know the the the reality you around you with with with contemplation.
(42:41) Um the the word uh I I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher things but you know the the word comes from the Greek schol uh which uh means like school. It's like very like a a proper like liberal arts education um is is is teaching these types of uh um the the uh what what would make the mind capable of engaging in these sort of uh contemplative acts and uh when you go back to you know Aristotle and and many philosophers since uh contemplation is sort of the the height of living that's that is the the height of of human living. That's why you do it. You you
(43:24) work for leisure. Um you work so that you have the savings so that on the seventh day you can rest. And when you're resting, you can actually take a look at what there is and decide if it's good or not, you know, and if if uh and and you can actually start to chase after what what is truly good. So when I talk about leisure, I'm not meaning, like I said, I'm not talking about, you know, just watching Netflix or something.
(43:52) What I'm talking about is um actually um engaging your mind towards uh a vision of the higher good. Um so thinking about um what do you truly value in life? Um and this this can take many forms. Like I said, you know, there's there's uh you know, there's the arts and sciences, philosophy. A lot of these things ultimately uh kind of go together.
(44:19) Um, but that's that's what we mean by that. And where does this, you know, come into play? Like what does that have to do with anything I've talked about? And I would say that uh in a sense it has to do effectively with with time preference because what what you're doing um I wish I had like a a whiteboard so I could be like you know drawing drawing graphs or whatever but it's like if you have a time preference schedule um uh if you go find Hoppa's book you'll you'll see the little graphs of of time preference versus uh monetary income. But in that you go looking for
(44:54) the book. So I like hold it up to the on one of a It's okay. But like it's my home book. The point is is like any given given a time preference schedule, you know, you you have you have a certain schedule and um assuming your your personality doesn't change, your knowledge of the world doesn't change. Um your your rate of income through just the process of of production and so on and so forth.
(45:19) So everything's kind of static otherwise. you're just on that curve and your time preference is lowering um but uh along this curve and I would say that you so when he's describing what he calls the process of civilization which is all of that stuff together I was talking about leading when you have when you have a whole uh society of people engaged in this and connected to one another you're building on top of it and that builds civilization that is the civilizing process And what he shows like he has a little graph for this and he's basically
(45:54) saying is like the process of civilization is taking that curve and then like taking the whole curve and lowering it fundamentally because you've changed um in in some way and then also because you're accumulating capital you're getting further down that curve. So the lowest time preference stuff like every step of the way you're trying to you know not only take where you are and accumulate you know more of the goods so your time preference goes down but you actually what what can be done to actually lower that curve completely. Um
(46:28) and once again that comes through knowledge. Uh because ultimately capital requires knowledge because it requires knowing that there is something that you can add to the the uh you know structures of production to lengthen it in some way that will take time but allow you to have more in the future than you would today um in in a way that you know pleases you or whatever.
(46:55) Um, so when you're engaged with leisure and you're thinking about what you truly value, you're I mean you're you're really looking into the abyss. I mean, so I I reference a book uh called Leisure, the basis of culture um by a German philosopher named Joseph Peeper. Um and uh he's uh he's he's writing from a a very Catholic perspective, but I think it's it's something that a lot of people could could get a lot of value from, you know, regardless.
(47:23) Um, and for him coming from that Catholic perspective, he sees, you know, when when he's even talking about culture, he's he says cultists. And I I can't remember exactly uh all of the etmology of of that uh word, but it was effectively around celebration, uh, which for him, you know, meant effectively worship.
(47:44) Um, but even from like a sort of, you know, non-religious perspective, I don't want to, you know, like you have many listeners of of many stripes. So, I want to like bring this to a more universal uh kind of way of thinking about this. Um, when you're celebrating or worshiping, what is it that you're doing? You're you're trying to get in touch with the highest of the high.
(48:09) So for him being a Catholic, you know, it's it's, you know, worship around, you know, the eukarist and, you know, uh, you know, Sunday mass and everything because that you're getting they're getting communion. So it's uh it's you're you're getting in touch for them with literally God himself. Um, so that is the highest good. Now for whoever anyone is, everyone has some highest good that they're chasing after.
(48:34) And so it's like leisure is that connection with try trying to connect uh not only with whatever that highest good is but also uh all of the sort of implications of that of like a whole ecosystem based around having that vision of that highest good. Um, and so, you know, this manifest is like, okay, well, if whatever is the highest good, it's like, okay, well, how do I how do I best express that? And how do I best express the implications of that? Well, that's going to change your perspective on the arts and how things should look um and
(49:13) and what kind of value should be imbued in the design of things. um if it's in um the sciences, it's like well, you know, h how is it like what what are the questions that I have about the world? Um how how do I go about asking these questions? Um if you if you believe that the world is just chaos, you know, the scientific method is not going to really help you.
(49:36) Um but if you if you think that the world has some kind of regularity to it now you can start to you know have more of you know the scientific method and so on and so forth start investigating to try to understand the full extent of natural reality which is also going to feed itself back on you know when you're trying to build capital you're having to overcome like the the realities of of the natural world and the scarcity of of things and how they work.
(50:03) And so you have to deal with all of the complexities of, you know, you can't fly a plane if you don't understand gravity. Um, and along with everything else you need to know, uh, to fly a plane. You can't turn on a light unless you understand electromagnetism. Um, so all of these things have to deal with these these realities.
(50:23) So when you're engaged with with leisure and you're you're focused on these highest goods and trying to explore that highest good and all of its implications uh it helps it helps form your mind around the higher things so that when you go to the the idea is like okay like what do I want you basically want better things whatever that is better better in this sense meaning getting you closer to that ultimate good that ultim ultimate end um on your your entire uh you know uh uh um uh order of of preferences that you have. Everyone is walking around with
(51:05) just, you know, uh, I would prefer this to this. And it's all this, it's just this big giant list in their head of of what they want. And every economic decision is like, okay, well, I have these goods available, so which which thing can I address? And it's like, you know, well, I have this and this could address, you know, you know, you know, my third thing and um, you know, or I could get this and this would address, you know, four, uh, but it's cheaper.
(51:32) So that would help me in the long run actually be better at getting towards number two or you know whatever. This is this is what economizing is is you're you going through the world trying to do that all of that is ultimately trying to get to whatever that ultimate good is. Um and so when you're engaged in this whole process of leisure and trying to find those higher order goods and how to make them and how to put resources towards them by saving uh and so on and so forth, you're pushing yourself closer to that actual ultimate good. Um which
(52:06) is going to reflect itself as actual good in the world. Um and hopefully your your vision of the good lines up with uh other people so that you're not um actually making their lives miserable. But yeah, I think there's another important sort of nuance to this to to point out is like if you have enough savings to exercise true leisure to think about these higher order goods and the market's not meeting the needs that you would determine are necessary to depart with your savings to attempt to achieve that higher good. while you're
(52:43) continuing to save, while you're looking for things that will help you achieve that higher good, you're also setting a a signal to the market that this isn't good enough. So, it forces producers to to rethink what they're doing as well. Yes. Yes. You are effectively uh you know, you're you're helping liquidate um or or make less profitable um certain structures structures of production uh than they otherwise would be if you were participating.
(53:12) And that then creates an opportunity uh to create better structures of production better in this case meaning more aligned with your actual thing. So uh for instance you know if I ever wanted to buy a house um which I don't recommend at this moment uh people should should let Black Rockck buy the houses and you keep the sats not the other way around.
(53:34) uh you wait until later for Larry Frink to try to sell you a mansion so you can so you can get eek out a few sats from you or something. Um but uh if you're doing that, if you just if you just go and buy a random house, you're getting a piece of trash. Um and you can you can follow a lot of great guys on on Twitter to to learn about just how awful um you know, houses these days uh can be like modern builds and such.
(54:03) Um, our friend Kelly Lannon is uh very very good on this topic and urbanism and so on and so forth. Uh, you're not if if you if you go buy a house at a new development, you're not you're not getting a forever home. No. Uh, just physically speaking, you're not getting a forever home. It's not about like whether you like the house or not. It's like it's literally not going to last you um a lifetime.
(54:26) Um, certainly not passing down. Likely not even the length of the mortgage that you take out. Yeah, it's just it's it's total garbage. Um, I I I had a tweet uh I was like, you know, fiat um you know, fiat housing is is paying, you know, 2,000 3,000 bucks per month for uh a house or apartment that has doors literally made of cardboard. No, quite literally.
(54:51) I remember a couple years ago you sent me a video. Yeah. So I I put a video of a guy he's looking at the doors. It's like and I I didn't know that before. Like I had this these doors are so light and it's like sound. I can hear everything in my going on like the what's going on there.
(55:08) And I but I never really it didn't really cross my mind other than how annoying. Um and how weird that the doors are so light. And I watched this video and it's like no it's literally cardboard. Um uh and have you ever seen the movie The Producers? No. Okay. Because like I always think of that because you know the the the guy he's he's totally uh the producer guy is a uh he's he's washed up and he's just like I'm I'm wearing a cardboard belt and it's like that's all of us.
(55:39) Like we're all we're all living that life. We're all washed up from from inflation. So point being that it's like if you just go out and get a house, you're going to be getting a piece of garbage. Um, but if you don't participate and you just focus on on hodling, but you also learn more about what it is that you actually want out of a house, um, you are, uh, ultimately helping, uh, create, uh, you know, the the conditions to have more, uh, what I would prefer, which is more traditional, uh, you know, housing housing builds. Um, and I'd want that
(56:14) whether I was living in a house or an apartment or anywhere. I want I want a beautiful building to live in because I have to look at look at it and live in it every single day. Yeah. And and you can squint and see projects like thousand-year homes pop up and more uh builders and architects who understand this problem and they're coming to market with higherend like masonry. Yeah.
(56:44) that right now is probably not scalable across the country, across the world, but it can be. It can be if people begin Yeah. In fact, showing their preference, saving enough to right now, they may be more expensive than your average cardboard box build and that makes sense. But the more people that save enough and then go and deploy that savings into the capital goods that these builders need to build better homes, thousand-year homes, then they're more economically secure.
(57:12) They can expand their business and sends a signal to the market of other builders like, "Oh, maybe there's an opportunity here if I decide to really focus on quality builds instead of fast high velocity trash economy builds." Right? So, uh, that that video was by a guy, Brent Hull. He's he's located here in here in Texas. He's up in Fort Worth.
(57:33) Highly recommend his his YouTube channel to anyone who's, uh, interested in home building and traditional styles and, uh, architectural principles or whatever. Um, but, uh, you know, he he's he's a good example of of some there's only so many people like him. Um, but if you could if you could get more, that'd be great.
(57:54) But even for people like him, um he I remember he was starting to use more um CNC uh to do some of the milling because he has only so many people. And while uh there is this sort of uh you know people people like the idea of handcrafted stuff, you can get over the fact that there's not enough people by now uh using using machines to help augment the thing and it's going to come out nice.
(58:19) Um, in fact, there's, in fact, he's shown there's, you know, long traditions of of machines, uh, helping with builds. That's why a lot of Victorian houses are so ornate is because it was it was the start of like really industrializing a lot of production of various metal work. So, you were able to make way neater designs than just hands would be able to do or at least in a in a time frame and for a cost that's actually worth it.
(58:46) So with that in mind, not only is it something that uh you know you can you can start to create the conditions for but also if enough people are sitting and having those thoughts uh the structures of production could build in such a way that's like you know yeah you might not get the handcrafted traditional house but you can get the one of good materials and that looks really nice because it was made by a machine that did did it exactly to the spec.
(59:13) And so I actually see no reason why uh that sort of architecture should be expensive at all. In fact, it should be dirt cheap uh over time. Um but it also the the economy is frankly it's sort of garbage in garbage out. And so part of what I'm saying is that it requires leisure to actually stop being stop inserting garbage into the high volume trash economy um and start demanding something that's actually a little better because it aligns more with the long-term view of of the good.
(59:45) Um and uh but the other thing there's there's also uh the the cap somewhere where capital goods also plays because obviously people can start businesses, they can invest in stuff that makes stuff. I mean this is basically what you do at 1031. You want to live in a Bitcoin world. So you invest in businesses that are helping make that thing.
(1:00:07) Um, but I also think education is part of that because education is what helps form the mind to actually engage in effectively sort of higher forms of leisure to be able to think more clearly about uh what makes a good house. So in in many of these things I like talking about it but you know I'll be the first to admit I'm a I'm a delatant.
(1:00:26) I'm a you know you know I I don't I'm not I'm not an expert on these things. Um but in some sense it's like I I do desire them. So it does actually create an obligation for me to try at least to do something to learn about how does this actually work to actually understand not just that building looks good that building doesn't but actually think about is like why does that building look good what is it what are the principles underneath that do that and that takes time and education um and even the beginning of it uh it still does take a sort of uh
(1:00:59) vibes uh mentality so uh you know capital goods is a like I said it's psychological. It's very broad. So I would even put things like uh people people starting uh vibe accounts on on on X as being within that because what that does uh you know some of them can get really annoying and they also turn into griffs and stuff like that. Shout out to prep propaganda.
(1:01:23) I like prep propaganda. Uh, if we're going to if we're going to give shoutouts, I have to give a shout out to Nectai Salvage, LW Root, uh, who is is probably the vibe king of of X. Um, uh, wonderful guy, super nice guy, and, uh, he does he does a great job of of promoting the Oxford, uh, collar buttondowns.
(1:01:47) Um, and, uh, so so yeah, neck necktie salvage, but like guys like him, what is he doing? I mean, he offers services to to teach people like you can he he'll go help you uh you know, improve your wardrobe or whatever, but even just, you know, having these accounts that just show different things. Um it's like, you know, you go to a showroom for all kinds of interior design and so on and so forth, that's meant to help you understand the different vibes of what is out there.
(1:02:12) So, you can just get this even a a visceral feeling of what is good, what is bad, and get a sense of that. Um, but then I I would recommend it's like you also try to get deeper of why does that feel good? Why does that what is it about it that makes it good? Um, you know, uh why why is uh why is Bach so good? Why is Mozart so good in in the realm of music? It's not just because they just, you know, it's not like it's not pure vibes that did that.
(1:02:42) there's also musical principles underneath that made them uh that they they built those vibes on. Um and so education is extremely important. And so getting this out into the world, um creating those signals so that people know, I mean, how did how did uh Steak and Shake know that the world wanted beef tallow? Um they didn't just make a a guess.
(1:03:09) is because there's been a growing uh sort of movement online of people sharing information about uh what they believe are the health effects of beef tallow uh versus versus others. Seed oil disrespector vibe vibe connoisseur of a beef tallow over seed oils. Yeah. So this is like one of the the the the roles that that things like that play.
(1:03:32) So people should people should consider that of you know what what are the what are the vibes that they can put out. Um, so, uh, I'm this whole interview is just me trying to trying to, uh, you know, get a get a job at Vibes Capital Management, I suppose. But, um, yeah, it's just that that's very important. And, uh, but also, like I said, you know, further education.
(1:03:57) Um, and so where is all of this going, you know, with with, you know, you you have leisure, you have that moment of rest to actually stop like uh you know, trying to earn yet another, you know, dollar or whatever. Um or you know like you know take take a break um and actually reflect on what is it that you're doing so that you can recalibrate and you know go back in uh with with a a higher sense of of what you're trying to do in your day-to-day life.
(1:04:31) Um, and where that goes is that what what I would argue is there's obviously a market price um for for you know a good um so Bitcoin's market price is you know whatever it is at the moment like hundred $110,000 or you know whatever that's the market price that means you can go you can trade it you can get $110,000 you have that much purchasing power whatever that means that's just the price that doesn't tell you anything about what what if if you you know just wanted to use a bitcoin to go get something um that doesn't tell you what you should
(1:05:08) get. It only tells you how much you can get. And so one thing that I was trying to argue in my talk is that um the the ultimate value of your SATs is up to you because it's it's up to you to decide is is this uh are are these SATs worth a Lambo or are they worth something better than a Lambo? How do we even define what's better than a Lambo? How did we decide Lambos uh were a thing? um it's it's up to you to ultimately decide what that value is good for.
(1:05:47) And so um you know price obviously enables much more of that sort of value expression, but it's up to you to sort of make yourself worthy of desiring something that gets every potential value out of any given unit of money uh that you have. Um, and it's it's only up to you. Like the the market the market will give you anything that you ask for.
(1:06:12) Um, and if you if you do not have uh a a virtuous mindset of what you want, they'll be happy to just, you know, sell you all the, you know, all the crack that you want uh and you can just, you know, smoke crack uh till you die. They'll be happy to give that to you. Um, it's it's up to you to say, "Oh, well, I want I want a beautiful house.
(1:06:35) I want, you know, uh, you know, I want um, you know, uh, good good things for my family and so on and so forth." Like only you can can demand that out of out of the market. Yeah. And this is this is reminded me Austin Tanel is also in the world of masonry. the name of his company is escaping me, but they're building beautiful brick houses and um whole neighborhoods up in Oklahoma and other parts of uh South Midwest.
(1:07:04) And he mentioned one thing is like I think building on this like he has a problem finding quality brick for the builds that he wants to do because the brick factories don't exist anymore because the market has basically gone out there and say we prefer these high velocity trash economy builds with cardboard over the brick.
(1:07:22) So all the brick factories sit down. So like Kelly who you mentioned already, Austin Tur and I sat down recorded a podcast probably like a year and a half ago at this point and Tur and I have often joke since we recorded that podcast like when are we going to invest in a brick factory so that like people like Austin can because if you want it you have to actually make it happen and it takes time. Yes.
(1:07:44) Like you don't just get to when when you demand something out of the market you don't just get to snap your fingers and say I want bricks now. But it's like I don't only want a beautiful house. I want my neighborhood to be beautiful and if I want that we need a brick factory. Yeah. You can't Yeah. You need not just enough brick production for yourself but enough for uh the whole the whole neighborhood.
(1:08:02) So you you know build the change you wish to see in the world effectively is I I think how I put it. Um so yeah you you have to actually you know get to work. Um, and so, um, I, you know, w with any of this, I don't know, uh, I I don't know what what everyone else wants. I don't know, um, you know, because of that, I don't know at what point is the best point for them given whatever they have to to be making moves into anything.
(1:08:34) My point is not to make any kind of statement about what the correct thing is because I don't know. I'm not you, but rather be thinking about this and take that time dimension into consideration. Take the knowledge uh uh factor uh in into consideration and be thinking about it so that you can find what what is the right thing uh to do so that you can actually get what you want.
(1:09:03) No, I'm really happy you you gave this presentation that we're recording this right now. I'm trying to figure out how to frame this without coming off judgmental but I think Bitcoiners need to be thinking about higher good higher level things like this thinking in this mind or at least me individual won't put a broad brush on Bitcoiners but myself and I think others should as well and like raising the discourse to think and and Tur talked about this a lot I think that same Bitcoin urbanism meetup that we had last year or a year and a half ago whenever
(1:09:35) it because that is sort of the flag he planted in the ground is we could look up 10 years from now and Bitcoiners could be like 90% of the.1%. Um, and what are we going to do with that wealth? Like how are we going to make the world better? And obviously that meetup was highly focused on urbanism but beginning to think of this not just buy a Lambo or buy a second house.
(1:10:00) It's like what how do you want to see society progress? Yeah. Well, the nice thing is at least, you know, obviously people are going to want to stack more SATs. I don't blame them. They probably should go stack more SATs. Um, but one of the nice things about Bitcoin is that it's going up regardless of you. Like, like you're along for the ride when it comes to Bitcoin.
(1:10:19) And so, um, first of all, I agree. It's like I I look at myself like this is a this is a a you know, me judging myself, telling myself I need to be doing this. I need to be thinking about, you know, what is it that I truly want in life because um I I don't think I've done well enough thinking about that um in the past and I should be I should be focused on on a better future.
(1:10:47) And uh as we've said, it's like money itself alone does not do that. You have to have all these other things to actually turn that money into uh those nice things. And as I'll just beat the drum on it, it's like there is a time dimension as well. These things take time. So, um, yes, I think that because of the fact that like Bitcoin is just going to do what it does, you have, you know, however much time between now and Bitcoin getting to a price where you want to engage in something, you have lots of time to study, and you should
(1:11:18) probably be uh making use of that time. I should be making use of that time um to actually uh figure out, you know, what what does your dreamhouse look like? Um what does uh you know, we we could go down the list of all the all the things that someone would want out of life, but what are all those things? How do they how do they reach their highest potential that are imbued with uh the highest values that are ordered towards the highest good um around? And it's like you can be thinking about that now even if even if you have no plans on
(1:11:55) spending because you recognize that if I if I hodddle in the future I'm going to have more that I can deploy uh you know orders of magnitude more you know 10 100 times more purchasing power um and with that there's so much more potential that it is worth waiting to actually get the ball rolling at a future date even before then you can be doing the education stuff because that's all free line. Mhm.
(1:12:23) Um well, I'm going to combine two three things here now. Going back to like huddle for good in the context of in the future there may some good be a good opportunity for you to deploy your savings into where something bad happens and you need your savings to assist. The latter happened to me. Um but it gave me like when I in my mid20s I quit a job expecting to get a new job within a month and it turned into 18 months.
(1:12:49) I was unemployed and wasn't a great time to be selling Bitcoin, but I did have Bitcoin savings that I could have some leisure to think about what I wanted to do next. Could also get through the the hard times. Yeah. And get through the hard times because I had savings. Um but I also had the leisure to really think.
(1:13:07) And you were actually working at this company during this period of my life. And this is like a great example of me spending my leisurely time and the excess savings that I had to learn more about Bitcoin. Turned out to be a very shitty minor. But I learned how to operate uh like Bitcoin interact with Bitcoin from the command line.
(1:13:28) I learned more about hashing and mining pools and those concepts which gave me the knowledge to confidently write about some of these topics in Bitcoin. And so that leisure and the excess savings that I had gave me the time to learn more to start a business educating people bit Bitcoin.
(1:13:45) And I think in the long run I'm better off because of that. But I was only able to do that because I had savings and somewhat force leisure but use that leisure I would argue wisely to learn more to bring something yes productive in the form of this media company. So, in that sense, like when you're when you're re-entering the market, you have way more uh to to aim for and way way basically way more human capital to deploy um on the market.
(1:14:09) No, it's funny cuz I remember I was setting this up and playing with it when I was unemployed in Brooklyn in East Williamsburg. I remember exactly where it's sat, but I remember playing around with the CLI and learning about mining and all that. Yeah. Oh, and for me, you know, what was exciting about that was the uh was was before then it would it would seem silly to people now because we're in 2025, but back then uh having having some of the you know things like a payment decorator and like all these all these just like having a node with a
(1:14:41) Python library that could communicate with it. Well, um that was that was very fresh and exciting um and simplified things that uh used to be extremely difficult. I remember trying to make a just you know toying around trying to make a blog with a payw wall that was based on you know watching a node for payments to come in and is like when you actually look at it's a complex engineering task because you have to you know watch the blocks you have to like wait for you know uh the right you know wallet to I mean the the right address
(1:15:19) to to get some money and you have to be paying attention to all this and it depends like do you care about confirmations or not. So you have to you just have to be uh you know doing doing all this stuff and then you know when it's like oh there's like a simple uh you know uh couple lines of Python that just does all of that now because it's tied to a node.
(1:15:40) Um that was sort of revoly. Um and that's also you know software is capital. Um and that's a great example of of how capital helps. We've and we've advanced you know far beyond that now. Yeah. a decade later. It is funny. I literally just looked up. I was like, "Oh, this actually ties in well to this conversation." It's a little computer here. Yeah.
(1:16:01) Um and uh yeah, you know, I was trying to think uh it's kind of just veering into this other thing. Um I don't know if he wanted would want to be named, so I I won't name him, but he'll he'll be listening and he'll he'll enjoy this. But uh I was having a discussion with a gentleman because I thought he would like my my talk, so I sent it to him.
(1:16:19) And you know, he he likes Bitcoin, but he's not a he's not like a hardcore Bitcoiner. He probably has some or something. But um you know, one of the things that he was uh concerned about is this idea that you know, money is a tool and money itself does not do anything. You know, like he's not meaning that in like sort of the the Keynesian way.
(1:16:41) Um but it's just like you can have all the money, but it's like do you actually have the things you want? And it's like if you don't it's like you do have to spend in order to get those things. Um and uh it probably is good to have you know other productive assets that are aligned with uh the specific things uh that you like in the world.
(1:17:03) And um one of his concerns is like because of people just hodddling and and just buying more and more. It's like if people are doing that then in some sense that sort of Keynesian view is like kind of right. you know, it's like people are just going to hold forever and then and then what? And um you know, you know, I was thinking on that and I think uh there is an interesting concept that I think people should should be uh thankful for Bitcoin uh with, which is a lot of what he's describing is to me more of a problem with uh with fiat than it is with
(1:17:36) Bitcoin. And I think Bitcoin actually solves it. And the reason why is because with with fiat your your time horizon is shortening. So, you're always having to chase after more yield. Everyone's everyone's yield chasing at all times. And you can never stop. It doesn't matter how rich you get. Uh you still have to keep keep going forward or it's all going to go away.
(1:17:57) Now, maybe you get to a point where you're so wealthy that uh you don't even want to give it to your kids. You just want to give it all away like Bill Gates or something. Don't recommend that. But um you know uh you know that's you know for him obviously like how how much is he truly chasing after new wealth? I'm not sure.
(1:18:15) Um but for most people you you you can't stop. And then uh even beyond people as an organization you have to keep chugging somehow or this whole thing's going to fall apart and then everyone's going to lose their job and they're going to have to find something. We're always trying to do something which in our in our trash economy means like every business becomes a financial services uh business.
(1:18:40) Um and um and so you have to do that do that. But with Bitcoin because of the fact that units are are not being added so it's not getting debased and so you can actually just hold on to money and know that it's part of a you know that percentage of a pie. You can actually rest. You actually have that room to rest. And so um there's actually uh in some sense a uh like there there is a diminishing marginal utility for money and bitcoin I think helps illustrate that better because of the fact that over the long run if you just save it the value of
(1:19:23) each unit is going to go up and so you know at some point you actually can theoretically say you know this is enough for this moment for whatever your purposes are. And if that's the case, um I would point out, you know, where do we get the chance for leisure? We get the chance for leisure from being able to rest, taking that seventh day off or, you know, whatever.
(1:19:51) And so, uh, Bitcoin, I think, uh, you can you can actually come to a rest. You're not chasing after money just for the sake of more money. Um I think that is mostly a function of Bitcoin being in such a high growth state that it's like in many ways why wouldn't you want to uh attain that kind of sort of uh uh you know monetary mobility when it's put in front of you especially if you have that long-term view where it's like you know at the very least I can pass it down to my children and they can figure out what to what to do with it even if I don't get
(1:20:25) to partake in that. um that's very attractive to people and it totally makes sense. Like of course you would just go bananas over trying to stack as many sats as possible and just just leave it at that. But um because you can rest, there is that room to actually be able to stop and think what really matters.
(1:20:52) And as as the world converges on Bitcoin, that growth rate will slow down. So people are not going as bananas just to get additional sats and they can think more long term about what what do I want to do with any any money that comes in, whatever I have now, whatever I get in the future, what is it that I actually want to do with that? They have more capacity to actually contemplate and reflect on that.
(1:21:20) And so, um, that in turn, we were talking about all the production, all the whatever, that in turn would actually lead to more of the thing that I think my my friend was hoping for. Um, so I hope that's a good answer for him. I uh to to to address that sort of concern and anyone who else who might have that concern. Um, and I think uh if you if you're interested, you're the interviewer, but uh leads us into a different part of my talk on um basically a legacy.
(1:21:51) Um um so you know I talk about legacy and you said you know there's there's some people who uh what they want to do is just die with their coins you know and uh they see that as a benefit because there are gratuitous benefits of the marginal value of everyone else's coins uh goes up and to me that is a we'll call it a good baseline nice thing of nice legacy that's a baseline legacy because it's like well you you know that you're you're helping just like when you invest in or sorry when you save money you're sort of investing in the economy as a
(1:22:26) whole in a sense you're uh putting like a permanent endowment in the economy as a whole you know and so it's like okay everyone gets that little little bump in their money that's cool um but at the same time if you have a vision of a higher good that you want and you have values uh that you're trying to uh build the world world towards.
(1:22:53) If you just raise the marginal value of everyone's sats, then you just get whatever like you're just you're you're just feeding into a a garbage in garbage out kind of thing. And you know hopefully Bitcoin because of its properties will indeed kind of make people lower time preference kind of have a longer term uh view of things that reflects back and sort of uh you know you know more more civilized uh you know lives and whatnot.
(1:23:20) But uh there's there's no like inherent guarantees of that. Whereas, um, if you can leave other things behind and you can actually put those coins to something, it's not everything, obviously. You you're you're not going to you're not going to like any of this stuff. You don't spend your whole stack like you you balance it out however it is uh that you want, but there will be more savings than there would be in a fiat world.
(1:23:48) Um if you do that then you can be leaving things behind and leaving capital goods behind for your children and others um and and also just you know great works of of various kinds uh that help uh imbue the world with those particular values for them to continue uh building on. And so um I brought forth uh you know a virtue of magnificence.
(1:24:15) Magnificence is basically the the act of of basically doing great things. You know, you're you're sacrificing uh your wealth. Um in fact, like a a poor person can't have magnificence. And I don't mean that in a sense of a poor person can't be a virtuous person, but specifically the virtue of magnificence is um is the the sacrificing of great wealth for the purposes of something great.
(1:24:47) Um and so uh it's it's something that actually demands only a whale can possibly do something that would be considered uh magnificent. And uh if you have your mind towards magnificence um and you have you know another virtue of I didn't mention this but magnanimity just basically directing your mind at great things um if you have that because you've had leisure you've had time to reflect and contemplate these highest goods now um you you can you can uh think about uh goods that can sort of outlast your Bitcoin.
(1:25:24) Um, one of the things I said was that when you if you just leave your Bitcoin, um, if you have children, like they'll have children, people will spend, uh, maybe they have lots of children and so maybe things get diluted over times. Like at some point it it's sort of a it can be an ozamandius, you know, situation where everything just kind of dissipates over over time.
(1:25:46) Um, but what are the things that you can do that would outlast your specific Bitcoin? Bitcoin itself will be here forever. your your stack might not. Um, and that might be the case. Uh, I don't know. I don't know uh what kind of money uh the the Mozart family has today. Like I I don't know. I I don't I literally don't even know if the Mozart family uh exists anymore or not.
(1:26:14) Uh maybe they do. Um but uh like uh I don't I don't know what kind of money uh you know his his broad family like you know has but he left behind you know some of the absolute greatest pieces of music in all of history and we're still listening to it hundreds of years later and I imagine people are going to continue to listen to it for hundreds of years uh especially because they're going to open up uh the Reorg and uh be forced to listen to uh some Mozart.
(1:26:52) But point is is um having you know if if you can uh be a patron of the arts or or even just have have the leisure time to be able to learn the skill yourself and produce something like a great piece of music, a great building or whatever that will that can that is something that can exist forever. Um and uh perhaps Bitcoiners should consider what are the magnificent things that they can uh devote themselves to.
(1:27:21) Um and you know I I had a picture on there of uh the the cathedral in Florence. Um which is probably one of my very favorite buildings in the world. And I I remember going to Florence when I was when I was a teenager and I was just standing and and staring. It was already one of my f because I thought, you know, Brunolesky's dome is just so it is magnificent.
(1:27:42) Learning about how it was engineered uh just, you know, incredible thing. And I stood there and I looked at it and just to think that that hundreds of years old and of course there's I think there's regulations in Florence about how tall they can make uh buildings or whatever, but that thing still towers over Florence and it is it it um you know it's just a very moving site anytime you see it.
(1:28:07) And that's been the that way for hundreds of years for countless numbers of people. And so what what can you do um that perhaps also has that effect on the world? Um and uh the way that you get there is by uh aiming at those higher higher ends. And so, um, and and and that to me is something, um, that would, uh, be worth, uh, spending spending Bitcoin on if you if you knew that you could make something that would, uh, hundreds of years down the line still bring inspiration to the entire world.
(1:28:49) Um what like what what what is Bitcoin for if not to um make a society and create the conditions possible uh or create make the conditions that make such an act uh in creation possible. Um so to me that's that's sort of uh you know part of part of the whole end. So it's like you know when we're hodddling for good we're hodddling forever.
(1:29:18) We're hodddling for for nicer things. Uh but we're also hodddling sort of for the these these ultimate goods uh or and I I also put it as like the common goods of you know things that are are just these magnificent gifts uh to the entire world. Yeah. Going back to the cathedral like something that was built hundreds of years ago that inspires you inspires you living today in 2025 or 2015 whenever you visited.
(1:29:44) Yeah. on the total, you know, other side of the world. Yeah. It's the sort of thing that, you know, I'd love to go travel to the other side of the world again just to see it. Um, and that goes for, you know, many many other great buildings. Um, many many other great, you know, works of art. Um, you know, you know, there's there's all sorts of things in this world.
(1:30:06) It's like you can't imagine even wanting to live without it. There's some things in this world. It's like how did the world live before this? you know, it's like what what was the how how could you live in a world before 9th existed? Um, it's almost like inconceivable once it does exist.
(1:30:26) So, you know, why why wouldn't you want to create things that have that kind of effect on the world? That's sort of, you know, why are we here? Um, why are you holding in the first place? It's not merely for the sake of holding. Even even though holding is completely rational, it's something I I recommend people do.
(1:30:45) um you shouldn't necessarily just like throw away all your all all your sets on this thing because then uh yeah, you made this thing, but how are you going to eat uh so that you can continue to enjoy the thing you just made? Um so, uh you know, this once again, this is not it's not telling people that they they ought to go spend right now or uh what they should spend on or anything like that.
(1:31:09) My my goal um with that talk and subsequently this interview is to inspire people to think about um how how these fit into that their their uh their own world and uh what what it means for their sets. Um and I think for you know a lot of people they they think about their family um and so on and so forth which is you know obviously a obvious good thing.
(1:31:37) Um, and to me that's sort of like the the first baby steps is kind of these obvious universal things. It's like, oh yeah, like I want to take care of my family. But then further is like, okay, how do we take that to the next level? There's always a next level. And the more time you can spend um reflecting and contemplating on these things, the better you can find what that next level is.
(1:31:58) And uh the more that you're actually placing value on those stats that you have because those stats actually mean something. you know, it's like I'm going to be able to put these sets towards that one day. Um uh and and I I would like to know that would be including I want to hold these sets because I want to be able to know that I can give my children this amount because I think it'll be um what they need to have a leg up um in their lives and in my in and your grandchildren's lives and so on and so forth.
(1:32:28) So, you know, even you know, passing down hot sats is also part of this equation. Um, but there's a lot more than just that. Yeah. And this seems like a extension, another way to articulate Bitcoin fixes this that meme. Um, and I can hear people saying like this is such a pipe dream. Uh, it's cool and all that you're talking like this, but it'll never happen.
(1:32:55) Like the economyy's foregone. And even to your the gentleman that you had a conversation with about our Bitcoiners falling into the Keynesian trap of or becoming the the uh like literally you know don't eat becoming the hoarders the uh the Keynesians talk about just push back like this stuff is already happening on the margins like to to the gentleman um that you had the discussion with like this is an example I spent sats during that period when I had time for leisure but also needed to dig into my savings to to live. Um, yes,
(1:33:28) maybe not every bitcoiner is doing that, but it is possible. Made me able to survive that time. uh in terms of like magnificence and building institutions and things for the greater good. Maybe it's not Beethoven's third or a cathedral in Florence, but Nakamoto Institute very integral um sort of property for the higher good of education to help people better understand what predated Bitcoin, why Bitcoin works, how to think of it from an economic perspective and where it may go.
(1:34:07) like that is an example of a Bitcoiner yourself going out there and building something for the greater good. And not only that, the patrons and the donors to the Nakamoto Institute or individual Bitcoiners to say, "Hey, I'm willing to part SATS with my SATs and give them to the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute because I think what they're doing will be for the greater good of society.
(1:34:29) " And so the stuff is already happening at the margins. And many people may hear this and be like, "You guys are are talking pipe dreams here." But it's happening not at scale that we would like to see like it to see. But if adoption continues at the pace that it has and more individuals internalize this perspective and framing of what to do with my Bitcoin like you can begin to see the feedback loop accelerating.
(1:34:51) And you also have to start you have to start somewhere. Exactly. It's like if you're you know you you run a marathon by taking that first step. Um so uh yeah and you know like I said you know part of you know capital goods and and so on and so forth. Much of that has to do with education which is you know kind of the the realm of capital goods that I find myself uh you know kind of most interested in.
(1:35:22) Um, and so that's that's why, you know, like like you're saying, like why I have the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute. And uh, you know, I I would say even though, you know, the the websites existed for a long time, I think as an institution, um, as like a, you know, legit, you know, organization and everything, I think we're still on that, you know, that first step.
(1:35:42) Um but uh you know that that that step is I I think uh oriented in a in a direction of wanting to know um how do we actually create a magnificent uh educational institution that helps us know that we're not just passing down SATs. We're also passing down the knowledge to understand what those SATs mean and uh what those SATs are capable of which also means understanding how do we actually value this like what what does it take to make those SATs worth something? And so that's why it's like you know why why have the the cipher
(1:36:21) punks and the Austrians and so on and so forth. Well, uh it is my belief that in order to best understand what Bitcoin is, how it works, why it's important, why it unlocks any of these nice things that we have, why it is integral to the process of civilization through the lowering of people's time preference and the increase in in savings and capital production and accumulation etc etc etc.
(1:36:49) All of that uh requires um you know understanding these economic principles which I think are best um uh that that uh knowledge is is uh exemplified by the Austrian school and uh the cipher punks help um help us sort of best see in a world of um uh a a deeply connected uh computerized world with the internet.
(1:37:22) Um, how is it that we can build social institutions on top of that and ones um that do an even better job thanks to computation at protecting uh protecting our rights and uh facilitating exchange uh than we had previously. So actually sort of being able to put these technologies into a um uh into creating uh shall we say like you know uh uh technology that helps us socially but is also uh youocial in the sense that it it actually does things in a in a positive direction, a more humane uh direction.
(1:38:03) um such as you know being able to to have more uh personal freedom or uh protecting privacy in certain ways and so on and so forth. Um all of that comes from understanding a you know broadly cipher punk vision of what it means to um engineer with the internet in mind. Um and uh you know likewise there's there's you know just understanding the the history of cryptography in general and understanding computation.
(1:38:35) Um but then uh you know there's there's much more in the world uh that that has to like come into this to all play that that role and helping people know this is why there's only 21 million uh bitcoin um or I guess it's 2.1 uh quadrillion bitcoin now but no we're not we're not ruining no 21 million bitcoin um I'm I'm not giving into that um but uh yeah why there's 21 million bitcoin, why re why we run our own nodes, uh why hold your own keys, etc.
(1:39:13) , etc. All these things require that all all of that knowledge of understanding what this gift that we've received in the form of Bitcoin, what it actually unlocks for us. Um and then in turn uh like actually appreciating like the full uh picture of what that what is actually being unlocked through all of the sort of economic and uh you know sort of cultural and dare I say spiritual uh elements of of what we've talked about today. Yeah.
(1:39:46) So go support the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute please. Uh I'm a supporter, a very happy supporter. I will be a longtime supporter. Yes. Moving forward. But I think I mean we've had many discussions about what you're building over the years. And honestly, as a Bitcoiner who cares deeply about the principles that we discussed in this article, I think an institution like the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute is going to be an imperative if we're actually going to facilitate the necessary knowledge transfer to make sure that Bitcoin has the potential to survive in the long
(1:40:18) term across generations. Yes. And people can go to nakamotoinstitute.org um slashdonate if you uh wish to uh part with some SATs um and and frankly I mean SATs are needed to actually build these capital goods and uh you know one of one of the reasons why uh things are are more uh sort of slowgoing and it's like you know baby steps in this organizational process is uh you know these things do uh have have you know resource bottlenecks.
(1:40:52) I can only do so much as a single uh individual um and with only so much uh you know monetary resources at hand. So uh for those who who have gotten value out of the Nakamoto Institute and they like uh what has been done so far and you want to see that uh scaled um up with with all kinds of new stuff uh please get in touch and uh any any contributions are are uh greatly appreciated to say the least.
(1:41:25) Michael, this is my last Inerson TFTC interview in Austin before I before I leave. Thank you for I'm I'm honored. Well, thank you. I I I picked you specifically because I think uh it's a great way to end. Yeah. I'll be back in the studio. I mean, I'm also mad at you. I know.
(1:41:42) You know, for uh for leaving us, but you know, we'll we'll still see you here all the time. But the greater good of Family Calls in the Northeast. Yeah, it makes sense. Um Yeah. And and you you also you'll you'll get to be around a lot of uh crack in Philly, so that'll help you. It'll it'll help you in your leisure time to reflect on how do I ultimately get as far away from this as possible.
(1:42:07) Um, which which will then in turn get you just back to Austin cuz that's all you had to do in the first place was stay here. I'm going to I'm going to go with some savings and and send a signal to the drug dealers that my my sats are not buying crack so go build something more productive.
(1:42:23) Yeah, you can get a, you know, some kind of drone fleet to start like uh harassing them and and getting them away or something. I don't know. Maybe that's a good idea. Maybe that's the greater good of Philadelphia that needs right now. A drone I mean, hey, you know, Philadelphia is very much uh you know, a birthplace of the United States.
(1:42:41) You know, a country that I'm I'm very grateful to um to live in, be born in, and my family's been here for quite a while. And uh I would love to see a a Philly that is uh much more pleasant than it is now. Uh because it is uh it was once a great city and it can be a great city again. So maybe it needs people go forth and uh do that.
(1:43:03) Maybe it needs productive savers who plan on deploying capital to effectuate that change. You know, maybe maybe and maybe that needs to happen all across uh all across the world. If only there were a large group of people holding on to uh the the finest monetary technology in history to uh make that happen globally.
(1:43:22) Someone's got to huddle for good to make the change happen. Yes. Go out there and huddle for good freaks. Peace and love freaks. Thank you for listening to the show. I hope you liked it. If you did like it, please make sure you subscribe, rate, review the show. It helps us out a lot.
(1:43:37) And also, if you like these conversations, I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast. They don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company. We have the newsletter, the Bitcoin Brief. Go to TFTC.io. Make sure you subscribe there. A lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter.
(1:43:59) We also have the TFTC elite tier. If you sign up for that, become a member. We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping ad free versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early. Logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early, become a TFTC elite member. You will get that.
(1:44:23) We have our Discord server right now. conversation between myself and TFTC elite tier members, but we're going to expand that. We'll probably do closed Q&As with people in the industry. Uh I may be doing macro Mondays. So, join us. Go to tftc.io, subscribe, find the button in the top right corner of the website, become a TFTC Elite member.
(1:44:47) Thank you for joining us.

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