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Former CIA deputy Ken Egan reveals how Bitcoin is becoming key to U.S. strategy, and why Trump’s pivot could shift global power dynamics.
In this episode, host Marty speaks with Ken, a former CIA deputy chief and now head of government affairs at the Bitcoin Policy Institute, about Bitcoin’s growing relevance in U.S. national security and policy circles. Ken traces his Bitcoin journey from professional curiosity within the CIA, studying adversarial use cases like the Lazarus Group, to personal conviction following events like the Canadian trucker protests, which exposed the dangers of financial censorship. Contrary to popular belief, he reveals that many in the intelligence community support Bitcoin for its alignment with American values such as sovereignty and freedom. The conversation highlights a major cultural shift in Washington, where policymakers now view Bitcoin as a strategic asset rather than a criminal tool. Ken stresses that the future hinges on whether Bitcoin shapes institutions or is co-opted by them, and that political engagement is crucial to ensure the former. He argues Bitcoin can help solve systemic problems from fiscal irresponsibility to geopolitical instability, but only if the industry continues to organize, advocate, and embed its values into national policy.
"Either institutions are going to win, or Bitcoin is going to win."
"Bitcoin naturally washes out leverage… it's what makes Bitcoin antifragile."
"The CIA didn’t create Bitcoin, but they sure are paying attention now."
"We were all Satoshi."
"Let’s not test the resistance-money thesis in the United States."
"Bitcoin strengthens U.S. values, freedom, private property, sovereignty."
"Bitcoin is political, but it doesn't have to be partisan."
"If you're in a federal agency, the only incentive is to spend more. Bitcoin changes that."
"Don't underestimate your voice. If you keep the phones ringing, they listen."
This episode offers a rare glimpse into how Bitcoin is increasingly viewed as a serious strategic asset within the U.S. intelligence and policy communities. Ken, with his high-level government background and current role in Bitcoin advocacy, underscores the shift from skepticism to engagement among policymakers. His message is clear: Bitcoiners are no longer outsiders, they have a seat at the table, and with sustained political action and education, they can shape the future of Bitcoin policy. The time to engage is now, because the battle for Bitcoin’s role in society is already in motion.
0:00 - Intro
0:26 - Ken's background
6:58 - Tornado/Samourai, surveillance state
11:53 - Reestablishing trust
14:23 - Bitkey
15:18 - CIA bitcoin theory
18:42 - Neutral reserve asset
23:52 - Unchained
24:20 - BPI
29:49 - CLARITY and Secret Service message
33:54 - Withstanding a change in administration
40:03 - Institutions win or bitcoin wins
46:43 - Shrinking gov with bitcoin
57:47 - BPI summit
00:00:00 compared to China or Russia, do we have a comparable advantage in gold? How do we compete with China? And this is what the kinds of things CI will think about. Bitcoin is a natural option. At the end of the day, Bitcoin undermines the authority of the Chinese Communist Party. Either institutions are going to win or Bitcoin is going to win. But we do fundamentally on some level need institutions to make the country run. We want those institutions to be properly incentivized. In 10 years, Bitcoin is
00:00:19 either at a million dollars or is zero dollars. Ken, it's great to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me. Marty, finally. We've been we've been kicking us around for a few weeks. I'm glad we uh glad we were finally able to make it work. As I was telling you, in the middle of a move, conference in the middle of that move. It's been a hectic week, so I think I'm finally settling in. As you can see, no bookshelf, but we have stacked books behind me. Hopefully, they will be on on shelves soon.
00:00:52 No, there there are definitely ways there are ways in the world to get you know to get credits on um you know uh what do you call it? Um uh we're good Catholics, you know, when you when you pass and don't go to heaven. Um come on. Thank you. Well, moving is purgatory credit. So, I've done it many times in my life. So, I uh I feel for you. Well, thank you. But I'm really excited for this conversation and likewise the event in a few weeks, the BPI event down in DC, the summit, we met about a month ago, two months ago now at
00:01:26 this point in Austin during the takeover. And Zach was very eager to introduce you to me considering the the history of the show, topics we covered. And I think I'm excited for this cuz I'm infinitely curious to learn how somebody with your pedigree and your resume got into Bitcoin is now working for the Bitcoin Policy Institute as a director of government affairs. So for anybody listening who was unaware of Ken's resume, he did 20 years in government culminating as deputy chief of operations at the CIA Center for Cyber
00:02:01 Intelligence. uh you've worked overseas for the US State Department and now you're advocating on behalf of Bitcoin on Capitol Hill. So, how does somebody with that resume go from statecraft to cipher punk sort of ideas? Yeah. No, so I um like everybody else, I uh I um my my Bitcoin journey is a little bit everybody everybody has a unique journey, right? Um mine actually started at CIA, believe it or not. And it was for purely professional reasons. I um so I was an operations officer. I spent most of my career overseas um as
00:02:37 most of us do. Um but my last two years, my last two turn tours at CIA, I was at the center for cyber intelligence, which is CIA's cyber unit. Um and my first job there, I was group ch I was a operations chief for a group that worked on cyber threat issues. And this was in 2018. So you remember this was when Lazarus group the North Koreans figured out that stealing crypto was a lot easier than like you know trying to rob banks. Um this is when ransomware broke out as a serious problem just preceded you may
00:03:04 remember the Colonial Pipeline hack that shut down you know gasoline shipments to the east coast. So in 2018 um and it's kind of funny like I this is people say did the CIA create Bitcoin. I can tell you in 2018 when policy makers first had to confront its use by actors as an issue like nobody was ready for it. Like if they created it, it was tucked away and hidden in the basement cuz the the bench for people with crypto knowledge in general, digital assets, certainly Bitcoin was really really really shallow. Um I remember we had two
00:03:33 guys um who kind of had background in it and then you they became superstars because all of a sudden we were calling upon them to teach us about Bitcoin and digital assets in general. Um, but yeah, that's so I learned and like everything else, I learned about it because I had to because people we cared people we cared about were using it. Um, but like everything else there there was sort of a mind virus to it. Um, and I I admit, you know, I during co I was in the uh I was in the altcoin casino. I was defying
00:04:00 and memecoining and it was it was fun, you know. No, I I I don't hold any hate for the uh for the alcoiners. People do what they want with their money. Um but I you know that that was when it was during co um I had been sort of buying in 2018 but during co when I really started learning because this is what everybody learned right um and I you know for me Bitcoin was immediately attracted me to it and I was sort of inspired by um I mean the co Kenny trucker protest was something really important to me um I saw how it was
00:04:29 being used um but also sort of in my day job you know I I had a pretty good understanding of how the government uses financial financial tools as a weapon. Um, freezing bank accounts, OFAC sanctions, that kind of thing. And if you're on the, you know, on the giving end of that, that's great. Those are great tools to have if you're the government. Uh, not so great if you're on the other end of it. And, you know, watching these Canadian truckers the first time, you know, you'll be able to, it's very easy
00:04:54 to say, "Yeah, sanction the Iranian, sanction North Korea, whatever." You know, I'm not Iranian. Um but when you see all of a sudden Kat and Trucker people you had some sympathy with being targets of financial you know weaposition of the financial system it you know it struck it struck a it struck a nerve like a really really profound stinging shot to my consciousness my conscious about this issue. Um so for me for the first thing about Bitcoin was um was permissionless transactions that that's that's what got me into it. Um
00:05:23 then of course you go from there and by the time I left the government 2022 I had I was f I was you know full boore I was you know attending meetups and um that's when I started doing some advocacy stuff on Capitol Hill and and and messing around with uh David and Granny PPI doing some advocacy stuff but yeah but it it comes from my time at CIA and yeah I think the um the uh I think what might surprise some people is there are a lot of Bitcoiners um not just at CIA but across the whole national
00:05:52 security establishment And I think they're into it for the same reason that you know that everybody most of your listeners are right like it's you see what's happening in the world. You see the challenges we're facing. You see how governments use financial tools to weaponize them against opposition. You know it's it's very natural that if you have that kind of insight that you look for things to protect yourself and Bitcoin is obvious. So I I I tell a funny story when I um when I was first into it there was um cubicle one of the
00:06:17 guys and he had a bumper sticker and said we were all Satoshi. This is in one of the, you know, one of the offices. Like they like I know I know what that means. Type the guys. Oh, you're a Bitcoiner? Yeah, dude. Me too. Me too. Me too. And they they come out, you know. And like everything else when you're into it um you learn you meet people. I was in Europe um at a dinner with the chief of Station and he bust out his BlockFi card to pay for dinner and I was like, "Wait a minute." He's like, "No, no, I take in Bitcoin, man.
00:06:41 Take take my uh I take my rewards in Bitcoin." And there's two examples, but there are there there are a lot of Bitcoiners across the national security um establishment and which to me makes perfect sense. I think I mean a lot of listeners will find that surprising, but they're they're there and they're in it for the exact same reasons everybody else is. Well, I think the latter part there is what would be surprising to a lot of people. And I think that's one of the reasons why I'm very excited to
00:07:06 speak with you today is to get better insight into how the government, particularly the intelligence apparatus, is approaching Bitcoin and crypto more broadly, especially as it pertains to sort of civil liberties and the right to transact permissionlessly. Because I think that's one thing as we look out at the industry now, particularly what's going on with Tornado Cash and Samurai Wallet, those cases. I think there's a lot of questions that Bitcoiners have, particularly around the attempt by the government to
00:07:43 form fit laws that were written 50 years ago onto this new nation, unique asset in Bitcoin. And I and I think I would imagine Bitcoin existing and people using it in a peer-to-peer distributed fashion has to incite some uncomfortable questions of hey, are we going to be able to continue to leverage these financial tools the way we have over the last 50 years, maybe go further back than that. Um, and are we simply just going to have to concede that Bitcoin is this unique animal and reorient the way
00:08:20 we approach um the way we approach enforcement of the laws. Uh, we've been saying it on this show in Rabbit Hole Recap for many years. I I truly believe that Bitcoin instead of trying to force it down the road of form fitting it into bank secrecy act and a lot of the regulations and laws that have stemmed from that, it's simply going to come down to law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies having to do better sort of detective work. Um because the big worry is that you throw the baby out with the bathwater by
00:08:53 trying to put the incumbent regulations on a system like Bitcoin. Yeah. No, I think I think it's first it's it's important to realize that like the national security establishment is not a monolith, right? It's big. Um it's as big as everyone thinks it is, but it encompasses whether it's the intelligence community, CIA, um FBI, which you despite what people think is culturally very different from CIA, DoD, the Department of Defense, you know, the vast sort of octopus that is the military. Um so all these all these
00:09:22 different units have these different pieces of it have different perspectives on what they look at. And I think um these are also institutions, right, that have been around a long time. I think the sort of the idea that um being able to transact freely, self-s sovereignty is new is a little bit of recency bias. I mean, I think it my my my view is that it it it all sort of the the um things went bad after September 11th for a lot of reasons. I'm from New York. I took it very personally, but if you think they
00:09:48 think to the evolution of how of the surveillance state and what's happened in government since 9/11, um you you you get a flavor for for how we how things went off the rails and how we can actually bring them back in a way that still, you know, America was a perfectly fine country in 1999. Um we did we you know, we we survived perfectly uh perfectly well without all these tools of surveillance that were built in in the aftermath of 9/11. And I get again I understand you I I get what happened. Um but I think the story of
00:10:19 911 and the evolution of not only surveillance state but also global politics since 911 sort of creates a sense among people certainly younger people that maybe don't remember pre-times that these institutions are inherently anti um basic ideas of sovereignty um basic ideas of the ability to transact all the things we we care about in Bitcoin. Um, but I I do think now with President Trump, um, and the sort of the cultural shift, and I think that that's peaked during the Biden years, I remember just last year,
00:10:47 uh, I I did a couple panels at the, uh, Bitcoins policy summit last year before I was an employee, and we were really, it was like we were fighting on our backs, you know, just struggling, you know, keep trying trying to trying to stay in the fight. Um, the shi the tone shift in DC is remarkable and I think a lot and that that's not just about Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin is part of the general tone shift away from sort of this sort of this this Goliath of a surveillance state um that I think you know reasonable thinking people would
00:11:17 agree was abused um over the past couple years um not just against people in in digital asset space but I mean you know if you're at a schoolboard meeting and all of a sudden you're on an FBI terrorist list because you spoke at a schoolboard meeting that's problematic right and I think people have and I think we've we've arrive at a sea change. Um, Bitcoin is going to benefit from that and I think it's it's actually part of one of the bigger wins in the sales behind that. Um, but I think the the idea that sort
00:11:43 of these institutions are inherently certainly the national security sector inherently against these things is um is again reflects a little bit of recency bias. Yeah. And I think that's encouraging to hear. It's like how in your mind what do you think needs to happen within these four years to really cement that that mindset into the minds of not only yourself and Bitcoiners but the American people more broadly? Yeah. I think on some level I mean it's it's going to be also on these institutions
00:12:17 to prove it right. Like there was no like I'll give you an example like the uh the letter that like these former CIA officers signed um you know saying that Trump it was a you know it was it was um Russian propaganda did no favors and you know I feel bad I mean I'll be honest like I one of the people signed that letter I had worked for him early in my career and knew him and he was very good to me right so it's it's it was really sort of disappointing and I felt I didn't like seeing him on that letter um
00:12:48 and even though that wasn't CIA's letter, right? These are former officers who are entitled to speak their mind. They wrote in such a way that gave the impression that it was sort of their official opinion. And I think that things like that erode a lot erode a lot of trust. Um and I think the best thing that for example CIA but the entire national security establishment can do is just to deal fairly with people um speak the truth and and more and also don't abuse your powers. I think a lot of what happened um and I you know I
00:13:13 have a lot of friends at FBI and there are really good people at FBI good Americans who honor their os to the constitution but when you're you know when you become a fixer in Washington DC I I think I have to say I think CIA benefits from being across the river in in Virginia um in ways that like FBI does not benefit being stuck on Pennsylvania Avenue right between Congress and the White House. Um I think it's important these institutions uh that the leadership of these institutions um hold themselves
00:13:39 accountable for some of the things that have happened in the past. More importantly, just do your job well. I think people understand that these institutions are important, but just do your job well. Do it honestly. Um don't mess around. Don't don't um don't don't don't get cute with people's rights. And I think you all of a sudden you you you'll see a sea change. Um, you know, I think for example, we we have deputy director of CIA coming to our summit on June 25th, you know, and I I don't know
00:14:06 exactly what he's going to say, but he's not coming to talk about censorship or censoring, you know, OFAC compliant blocks. He's going to come and talk about why Bitcoin is important for the future of the United States. And I think things like this, uh, gestures like this from the National Security Establishment to not just Bitcoin community, but to the country will go a long way in reestablishing trust. Sup freaks. This rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey. Bit Key makes
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00:14:58 PIN, setting up a passphrase. Again, Bit Key makes it easy to use, hard to lose. It's the easiest zero to one step, your first step to self-custody. If you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't moved it off, tell them to pick up a big key. Go to bit.world. Use the key TFTC20 at checkout for 20% off your order. That's bit.world code TFTC20. Well, that's um going back to what you originally said in the beginning of the conversation and handily debunked that the uh CIA created Bitcoin. And that when
00:15:31 you when you hear when you hear that theory, it's often sort of uh it's sort of set up with the idea that like back in the early 2000s, post 911, the CIA was running war games at the Pentagon, looking at the debt, looking at uh the money that was going to need to be printed, especially um considering what happened in 2008 and they launched Bitcoin as a way to uh create a strategic advantage for the US in the long run. Um, that that was often that's that's one of the theories that's put out there if you are one of the ones
00:16:07 like Katherine Austin Fitz who believes that the CIA created Bitcoin. But even if that's debunked, is that sort of how the CIA views Bitcoin as a strategic economic asset that could play into the massive benefit of American citizens in the United States overall? I do and I think it's it's important to remember that, you know, CIA is not a policy organization, right? It's an intelligence organization. It job is to to know the truth, right? And report that to policy makers. I think a lot of what I think most people at at CIA, if
00:16:42 you if they're if they're involved with Bitcoin, it's because there are foreign actors using it to do things. I mean, that's just the reality, right? Like it's foreign actors use Bitcoin to move money, to do all sorts of things that that we have to accept that, you know, that that's part of having a freedom protocol. everybody can use it. Um, but I I think that there's there's a larger and the national security establishment is is ahead of the rest. Certainly, they're ahead of Congress on this. Um,
00:17:06 the basic idea of the the the impossibility of the current monetary system continuing as as it has been since we'll call it 1971, but maybe possibly longer. Um, is is a threat to national security. and what are what options are available um that that fit within sort of a a core sort of a core plateau of of of American values to help get us out of this situation. Um and this is why I think I I be honest with you, I don't I haven't met a lot of gold bugs in CIA. I'm sure they're there. Um I've not. Um, but you know, if if you're
00:17:42 looking for looking for solutions in a world where dollar dominance slides, our adversaries aren't holding treasuries like they used to, maybe the rest of the world has decided that they don't they want to derisk a little bit from their US holdings and don't want to have their national wealth stored in a bank in New York City. Um, what are the options? And this is the kinds of things CI will think about. What are the options? Um, where could these where these actors go? Where do we go? Bitcoin is a natural
00:18:09 Bitcoin is a natural is a natural option. It's digital. Um it fits in the modern world. Um you can self-custody it. Um it's it's permissionless. These are the sorts of things when you and you when you sort of game out and red team where will the world go or for example how do we compete with with China right which is building their sort of parallel system in the world. um what are our options for building a um a building a backdrop, building a set of options to deal with that? Bitcoin is an optional
00:18:41 option. Yeah. I mean, I think when I think about it, there's there's three things that really stand out. Number one, how young Bitcoin is and if it does truly compete with global currencies, uh reserve assets. And we're still at the beginning stages of adoption. You have this incredible upside asymmetric opportunity to get in early and benefit from the adoption wave. Two, I think River posted a report just last month or a few weeks ago basically highlighting that American hold the most Bitcoin per capita. The
00:19:21 most businesses focused on Bitcoin or starting the United States. we have uh the largest percentage of hash rate in any individual country here in the United States. And so in the private sector, we have an incredible advantage already just in the first 16 years. And then three, if you think about this playing out, adoption does uh continue at the pace that it has over the first 16 years since the protocol launched. And it does become a formidable reserve asset that competes like does having a neutral reserve asset that cannot be
00:19:56 controlled by any individual country, company, group of people, does that change the the game theory of geopolitics in a positive way? Yeah, I think it does. And I think you have to look at where, you know, what offers us competitive advantage, comparable advantage, right? Do we have compared to China or Russia, do we have a comparable advantage in gold? No, I don't think so. We have no natural advantages in gold. Um, do we have does do we have a does Bitcoin speak to our comparable advantages? Um, you we we do hope that,
00:20:28 you know, as we look at where we can go, you know, are we going to look at options that speak to what I think still remain core US core American principles, right? freedom, private property, bit, you know, Bitcoin bit in my mind and I think in the mind of a lot of people in the in in the national security sector, Bitcoin hits all those points, right? It we have a natural advantage in it because of mining. Um, it is on some level it's it's it's a technical protocol in which we excel. Um, and most
00:20:57 importantly, it it it does not undermine US values. It actually strengthens US values. One of the reasons why I think China can never become a superpower, a Bitcoin superpower is because at the end of the day, Bitcoin undermines it sort of undermines the authority of the Chinese Communist Party. Um, if you're a dictatorship, you don't want people having sovereign wealth. Um, thus Bitcoin is not a good option for China, which is why that they're looking to build their alternate their alternate system in um in their crossboard payment
00:21:26 systems and and some of the other and below some of the things that they're working on. Conversely, for the United States, you know, a a protocol that that that encourages self- sovereignty, that allows people to control their wealth, permissionless, you know, speaks to what I still think I still hope there's a basic consensus in the United States that these are American values. Um, and Bitcoin understates all those. Yeah. I I really hope those values still exist at some level. Yeah, I think so. And I I
00:21:56 think you're seeing it. So, again, it's interesting, Marty. Like I um I think back to like last year going sort of talking about politics a little bit of where where we were in Capitol Hill and and sort of the environment about about I you know the the the policy establishment still doesn't look they're learning that Bitcoin and crypto are different. I think Trump's executive order went a long long way in establishing that fact that Bitcoin is different than everything else. Um because people sort of get that
00:22:26 conceptually now. Um but the the reception that we get on Capitol Hill among policy makers, there's no longer discussions about is this just criminal money? Um can is it fake? Can it be stolen? All the things you talk about is you know is it only for buying drugs? All the sorts of discussions we had uh just not that long ago year ago about Bitcoin. Now the questions we get are talk me through why it's good for national security. Talk me talk to me why this will not undermine US global monetary dominance. Uh walk me
00:23:00 through how this encourages other countries not to join the belt and road or China's parallel systems. These like these are the kind of discussions we're having now. So but the basic premise is no they're not questioning whether Bitcoin is going to exist or whether it should exist. They're asking about the kinds of things it can do. That was a huge huge shift from where we were a year ago where basic questions about like will this thing be around in 10 years and can it be stolen and what if Satoshi comes comes back and you know
00:23:27 and hits reboot you know what happens you know basic education uh we're way past that now where you have and it's it is largely a bipartisan consensus not entirely but more and more the Bitcoin's here to stay um and they're asking really smart educated questions about how Bitcoin can address these certain policy challenges that no longer include is it just for buying drugs on Silk Road, which is a huge huge policy shift just a matter of a couple of months. Is Bitcoin's next parabolic move already
00:23:55 starting? Two of the strongest historical indicators, global M2 liquidity and the copper to gold ratio are flashing green again. Unchained and techv break it all down in the new report, Bitcoin's next parabolic move. Could liquidity lead the way? If you care about the macro forces shaping Bitcoin's trajectory, now's the time to pay attention. Visit unchained.comTFTC to read the full report. That's unchained.comtftc. I mean, and with that in mind, I mean, as the director of government affairs at
00:24:26 BPI, I think it's become pretty clear over the last two years, specifically leading up to last year's election, that a bunch of individuals in the industry sort of became privy to the fact that you may not care about political power, but political power cares about you. And if you accept that, it it makes sense to interact with politicians no matter uh despite the fact that you may be an anarcho capitalist that is in this for the cipher punk ideals that that Bitcoin was founded on. But uh you can either
00:24:59 ignore the reality of political power or engage with it. And I think with that in mind, what have Bitcoiners been doing right? What have they been doing wrong? And how should the industry be interacting with with the government as it tries to wrap its head around around Bitcoin? How it can impact the US the US government or excuse me the US economy. Yeah. So to speak to your earlier point. So when you're like involved in sort of Bitcoin clubs, Bit Devs in DC area, it's a little bit different than the rest of
00:25:28 the country because a lot of government people, a lot of military people, right? So it was a lot easier to sort of when you're you know brawing out with your Bitcoin friends they a lot of people in this area have sort of basic frames of sort of similar frames of reference. Uh I'll tell you where I had some great discussions though was in Austin um at the mining summit because you know these are people that don't live in DC most of them you know just want the federal government to leave them alone and you
00:25:51 had these kinds of discussions and my point to the people like that is always Bitcoin is resistance money but you do I but you don't want to have to put that to the test. I think people that use Bitcoin resistance money would much rather be in a situation where Bitcoin is a savings tool for them. Um it's a way to store wealth, all the other reasons where people like us look at, you know, that the advantages that we enjoy Bitcoin, we don't have to worry about it being resistance money. Um we and if you neglect the political
00:26:18 process, you could find yourself in a situation where Bitcoin becomes resistance money. And I don't want to live in a country where it becomes resistance money. It's a bad scene. So, I think people accept the basic fact that the government can't stop it, but you know, you really want to be positioned where you you're putting yourself in legal jeopardy to be able to use Bitcoin when had you thought about this a couple years ago, you could have participated in the process, um called your congressman, gone to summits, all
00:26:43 the things we're doing. And instead of letting it get to that point, Bitcoin becomes a legal accepted, widely traded, widely used um tool in the United States. So, yeah. Yeah. My point is always, you know, let's not test the the resistance money thesis in the United States. It plays that role in a lot of countries and thank god it's their people, but really if we could not get there in America, that'd be much better. To your other point, I think the be I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. You got it. I
00:27:12 think to to your other your the second part of your question, what we're doing, right? I think the industry has and and I've I've had the chance to see this sort of new job. Um, there are a lot of big brains in the Bitcoin business. A lot. Um, and I think that they are I think there's been a growing and it has a lot to do with the fact that DC is no longer hostile. Um, but I think there's been a growing acceptance of leaders in this industry, people whether they're building protocols, long-term holders,
00:27:40 sort of Bitcoin OGs, but the willingness of people like that to actually talk to policy makers is going a long long way because there's no there's no longer this sort of adversarial view of of the government and the government has been adversarial. I'm not I'm not discounting their experiences. I mean, last year the government was was an adversary. It just was. That's just the way it is. That's changed. Um and I I've been impressed that um sort of industry leaders have pivoted really quickly and are taking on you know
00:28:09 actually taking on the challenge of coming to DC meeting with members of Congress um sitting through discussions that's great you know that again that wasn't h some people were doing it um but across the board um I know the people that the BPI supports people that you know you included are willing to come here and have these discussions with policy people it it brings you makes you part of the process and all of a sudden through that you do that you actually have some natural allies uh not just not just in the administration but
00:28:34 also on Capitol Hill and that has been I mean I think that showed a certain maturity of the sort of the Bitcoin culture where industry leaders are willing to come here and not just leaders but you know we have a day on the hill um on second day of our summit and we have you know great signups people from all over the country coming they want to go meet the representatives talk to them about Bitcoin uh that goes a long long way and I think people were skeptical that if I call my congressman is he's really going to care but if you
00:28:59 call a congressman and you you know you say we have a Bitcoin meeting and if we meet every every month and we get 50 60 people they start to care starts to matter right when most most campaigns in this country are you know are decided by a couple thousand votes but that basic cultural shift in Bitcoiners from plebs to industry uh being able and able and willing to engage with with DC policy makers has gone a long long way because the end of the day you know even if they want to support you have to you have to help them get
00:29:28 there right they have to know that someone's got their back. If they're going to step out and allege, they need to know that there are supporters out there that will have their back if if um if it gets um you know, if there's if there's a political political disagreements about this. So, that for me has been a radical shift and it happened really really quickly. Um and I think that Bitcoin the community in general is is definitely benefiting from that. Yeah. And it seems like it was very wise to start that
00:29:55 initiative or to change mind on the approach to interacting with the government years ago because I mean there are big battles today. I mentioned them earlier, the Tornado Cash developers and the Samurai developers are going to hear some cases and I think we have the uh blockchain digital clarity act that that is potentially going to be presented to the House and I I believe over the weekend there was an amendment made to to a bill that's already on the floor that sort of integrates a lot of the language of the
00:30:27 Blockchain Clarity Act. And at the same time, you had the Secret Service last week tweeting out a conflation of centralized mixers and coin joint transactions, which I said on Rabbit Recap as a red line that we need to defend that um you can't uh you can't really be throwing people in jail for writing software that allows people to use Bitcoin in a self- sovereign fashion without having control. um as as the person who wrote that software, I think it's pretty clear that in both the Tornado Cash and Samurai case is that
00:31:05 the software they built made it so they never had control of funds and obviously the DOJ under Biden went to uh Finn said and asked, "Do you think these are money transmitters?" They said no and they went forward with the case. Anyway, and then fast forward to last week, you had the Secret Service come out and sort of doubling down on this. So, as it pertains to this idea of the ability of open source software developers to write code that allows Bitcoin or Bitcoiners to use the protocol in a way that
00:31:38 preserves their privacy. How do you see this playing out? Yeah. So, we're lucky Secret Service is a law enforcement entity. They they don't make laws. Uh they enforce laws. Um, so you know, their guidance is I I I I think it was I it's kind of interesting to me how that got out and why they put it out. Um, I um it's, you know, at PPI, you know, our job is to sort of be there and refute these sorts of things. Um, from our perspective, it's unclear what happened with Secret Service, why that happened, but um, just
00:32:09 because they say it doesn't make it law, doesn't make it um, doesn't make it the rule. U, the larger point though, um, are Tornado Cash and Samurai. I mean, I think you you um I mean, you're familiar with with um you know, as you referenced the um DOJ's just blatant decision to ignore guidance from Fininsen about the status of these protocols. Um but I think at the end of the day, this is the remnants and I my personal opinion, I'm confident that it's going to work itself out in the courts. Um but this was the
00:32:38 Biden administration wanting to set precedent. Um they couldn't get they couldn't get Dammo through. Elizabeth Warren couldn't get her bills through Congress. So they're looking to set precedent through the legal system. Um which frankly is not the way it's supposed to work but happens all the time. Um so I you know I we we think a lot about that. Um I think the um the BRCA the blockchain regulatory clarity actu certainty act rather I'm sorry and um and even now the um the big beautiful bill which you referenced you the
00:33:07 Senator Lumis has added some um essentially some components of BRCA into that into that bill. We'll see. But we're working on that to see what happens if we can get that through through the process. Um, but there there's a there's a there's a um there's a very deliberate policy um move right now to make sure that using the legal system to set precedent when law is not hasn't caught up is avoided. And BRCA is an important part of that. And if you know whatever BRCA is just, you know, it's some of its
00:33:40 parts, right? If we can get those components into the tax bill, all the better. If not, you know, come next Congress, well, come the fall rather, we'll um we'll take up BRCA and work with uh Congressman Hammer and Congressman Torres to get that through the House and into the Senate. Yeah. Well, pulling on this thread, there's um a lot of people in the industry think there's there needs to be a sense of urgency to get bills passed within this administration specifically. Obviously, we had the executive order for the
00:34:10 strategic reserve quickly after Trump was inaugurated. We've had a sort of um vocal verbalized agreement or not even agreement that the Trump administration has said we're ending operation choke point 2.0. We're not going to attack you. And many people are very excited about these developments. However, cognizant of the fact that uh due to the nature of politics in the United States in 2025 and the 21st century, uh things tend to flip-flop a lot unless something is enshrined into law. Uh we could just
00:34:51 have a a temporary sort of lull in the attacks on the industry here until the next administration gets in. um whether that's another Republican administration or a Democrat Democrat uh administration that that wants to be um more combative with the industry is yet to be determined. But I think we're all in agreement that it would make sense just to not have to worry about who's going to be president or which part is going to be uh in control four years from now. Yeah. And there's there's the reality of
00:35:24 like working in DC is there's a billion priorities and you know our our industry gets I don't know.5% of their brain power right to to to pay attention to our priorities. This and this is why what we discussed earlier about how the industry's changed. That's why that's important because the loudest I mean the loudest voices really are the ones that get heard um and loudest loudest can be you numbers of activists loudest can be the most money contributed um but the loudest voices get heard in DC and this is this is what
00:35:51 BPI's core mission is right is to stay in these people's faces and let them know we have a you know a very active um committed group of Bitcoiners who will either support you or oppose you depending on how you treat this industry um and you're constantly fighting for attention Um, and this is why things like like the Bitcoin conference, having JD advance the Bitcoin conference, for example, sends a message to the Republican party, right? This this administration is pro Bitcoin. So, you know, you might you may or may not care
00:36:19 about it, but we need you on board. Um, and then and then our, you know, the Bitcoin policy summit June 25th. These are really really important because these this is how this is sort of the this is how DC like talks to itself through conferences, getting in front of people, watch, you know, different policy makers looking for signals. Oh, the senator was here. Oh, the deputy director of CIA was he said this, maybe we care. You know what I mean? And then so it's it is it's a flywheel effect of always being in people's faces and
00:36:45 letting it's not and not just talking to Treasury, right? Bitcoin. Um I think one of the sort of the unfortunate events the fortunate sort of inevitable was that Bitcoin thinking about Bitcoin policy was regulated was sort of relegated better word to you know finan treasury and finance people when Bitcoin is a lot bigger than that and I think the fact now you have the intelligence community department of defense I mean there are some people Marty at the DoD thinking really deeply and smartly about
00:37:12 this um what it means for global competition. what does mining mean? How do we use mining for energy resilience? There are people thinking even the department of energy um some of whom will be at our conference. Um thinking really deeply about everything this ecosystem has to offer and how we can apply it to sort of a comprehensive national security strategy. Um but at the end of the day though it's you we remain competing for limited attention. Um there are a lot there's luck going on, right? We have we accept that we're
00:37:39 not the only thing in town. It's very important to us. Um but people have other priorities. Um it's it's always being in people's faces. It's it's constantly letting people know that this community is out there. Um, and we'll again, we'll be your best friend or be the biggest pain in the ass. If you if you if you know, if you propose things that we think are right and it it at some point it does come down to that, right? Like we there will people we disagree with. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Um, but sometimes it does and
00:38:04 the Bitcoin community needs to be up there ready to fight um to fight with what they believe in and to be part of the process. Um, and I think, you know, right now we are front and center. we have all theum. Um, and you have the vice president at a at a cryp at a Bitcoin conference talking about how this is a national priority. You don't get much better than that when you're signal when you're signaling to your party. The challenge we have, of course, is, you know, we don't want Bitcoin to be it's not a partisan issue, right? Uh,
00:38:31 I heard people say Bitcoin's not political. I disagree. I think it is political, but it's not partisan. Not not the same thing. Um, so yeah, I mean I'm gonna suit today because after this you I'm going to Capitol Hill to meet with a you with with an office of a Democrat senator who kind of wants to be supportive of this industry, right? But you know they they live in their own universe as well. Um you know they don't want to be seen as you know being aligned with White House priorities. So our job is to give them space and find a
00:38:56 ways to them to express that support and we have to we have to be realistic right we can't expect you know members of different parties to get up and align with it's just not the way DC works. You have to accept that. Um, but we need to make give people space these members space who want to engage and we and that starts I'll be honest with you starts with telling them there's no litmus tests here. We have some really basic core principles. I think BRCA kind of outlines those but if you don't want to
00:39:22 support the SPR I mean okay that's fine like there are big coins that don't like it right we can you know that doesn't mean your this industry has to be your enemy. Um but we're looking for sort of we do have a core set of principles uh that we are looking for people to abide by. I think BRCA is is a um is a good example. Um but we need to give these these sort of middle people space to support the industry. Um because that that's how you get to get a during majority. That's how you make sure next
00:39:47 time the White House flips and eventually will flip, Congress will flip that we have friends um that see Bitcoin as being sort of in their in their interest and also they've built relationship with the community. they know who to talk to and you know we can we continue to get the treatment that we think that the uh the industry deserves. Does uh does your pitch change depending on who you're speaking with? Like I I find personally when I'm when I'm pitching Bitcoin to uh people who are in finance or um more right leaning it's
00:40:17 hard money only be 21 million government can't mess with it. and then left-leaning just point to Alex Gladstein, the Human Rights Foundation. Like if you're for activism and in building up the global south and giving people financial freedom and access to tools that that they don't have access to, like this is a great protocol for that as well. Yeah, 100%. And and that's that's the beauty of of of of this thing, right? Like you if you're most the most important thing on your agenda is energy resilience. Well, I can Wow.
00:40:48 I've got I've got a great story for you, right? what Bitcoin money can do for you. If you're the most important thing you care about, human rights or or bringing disenfranchised people into the financial system, I've got a great story for you. And then of course, you know, you're uh sort of our tra the traditional sort of, you know, like you said, you know, crypto anarchic libertarians. Yeah, they they're already our friends, right? They they they get the story, but you have to because again, I mean, these members are are
00:41:12 human, right? They have their own personal interests. Uh they can't be interested in everything. Uh you need to meet them where they are. And if they're if they're in if they're in my my concern is making sure that people that have been been uh who don't have access to the banking system have access to financial services. Yeah. Well, well, that's what we'll talk about. Um and it's not, you know, there's nothing disingenuous about that, right? Bitcoin does that. For example, um human rights, you know, I my my goal is to support
00:41:40 human rights activists around the world. Bitcoin does that. We you can have an honest conversation. Let people know how how Bitcoin can serve that can serve that purpose. Um, so yeah, you have to meet them where they are because again, if you go to a progressive and you're like 20 million, no inflation, you know, the government can't control it. Like, uh, give me something else, right? I'm not sure about, you know, I don't care about that. Um, let's talk about these other things. Yeah, you meet you meet people
00:42:05 where they are. That's the important thing. And then the idea being again, and I subscribe to this, you know, I think there's been a lot of discussion. We were actually going back and forth on Twitter yesterday. You know, I I I don't think at the end of the day, I don't think there will be either institutions are going to capture Bitcoin or Bitcoin is going to capture institutions. I really I I I really really believe that and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, right? That I'm I'm a BPI because I
00:42:27 believe that uh and I and I think that Bitcoin and its incentives are powerful enough that if it is it is if it is granted entering these institutions, it will affect it will it will affect how they're how they're ultimately formed and built and function. Um the alternative is is captured by institutions which we don't want. I for I really really believe that. Um and I I think that the best way to do that again you have to get in the door and you so you speak to people where they are but at the end of the day I you know at at
00:42:58 its sort of base core level for me that that this is the ultimate thing BPI is working on right either institutions capture Bitcoin or Bitcoin captures institutions. Um and you know our perspective is that Bitcoin will win. Bitcoin will capture institutions um to the benefit of all of us. But you know it's a battle um and you know this is what we do here. Well let's paint that picture. What does it look like when Bitcoin captures the institutions? So you mean when the dog catches the car? It's kind of you know I when I when
00:43:27 I it's just tell you a story but it's funny when I started at um I started here back in February. you know, we had all these plans about this is what we're going to do with BPI and we're going to do the SPR and all of a sudden, you know, we got in and then Trump completely front ran us and you know, did it good problem to have. Um but you know but I think the right now to to to answer your question you know I think it Doge if you look at what Doge did and people you can we can quibble about whether Doge was successful or not but
00:43:53 certainly did it did shine a spotlight on some of the the um how twisted and perver the incentives the institutions have become in the the primary incentive is just to continue to continue status quo and do nothing um you know to there's been a there's been a gross reliance on on across the government. Um, and I actually think that, you know, that there are the national security sector is probably the most responsible in this regard. But certainly the incentives across federal agencies have been to continue business as usual. Um,
00:44:24 not to challenge the status quo, no concern with efficiency, um, and just to continue spending money. Um, when all of a sudden you bring Bitcoin and Bitcoin is not just it's not just you can't print it, right? It brings more into it. It brings a sense of responsibility. It brings a sense of it brings value back to dollars because right now in a lot of federal agencies I'll give you an example. You know, if you're in a federal agency, the fiscal years are, you know, October 1st through September,
00:44:47 then it's September, right? That's the government fiscal year. Everybody gets it come July and say, "What's your spending rate? Oh, you're spending too slow. Spend, spend, spend, spend, spend." There's no incentive not to spend. Uh the incentive is is to spend and protect your budgets so you get the same next year or the sort of the um you know, the the requisite 5% increase that everybody wants. um you know you you bring you you you you you bring sort of the basic principles of Bitcoin into that discussion and it simply changes
00:45:13 the way people view the world. Right now, money is there's no there's no real there's no real appreciation for people. Money is just a way to in government to it's it's it's about continuity, right? It's it's it's about doing what you're doing, continuing your programs, uh the the results be damned. When you bring different incentives into that where the money that they spend is actually valued, um I think you you'll get better outcomes. Um I also think that there's there's there's a there's a general this
00:45:44 is across the western world there's a general sort of drift toward statism um sort of soft authoritarianism um whether it's censorship or you know well well tried territory right um you know when you bring Bitcoin into discussion and Bitcoin becomes part of a national strategy you know those that that those things are incompatible um and I think that when people understand when they see the what benefit the benefits Bitcoin does bring you know it makes these other things that they've been interested in the past untenable um
00:46:17 so again I you know I I I hear it a lot from Bitcoiners you know Bitcoin has no role in the government why you're doing this um I back to the fact that one one side's going to win either institutions are going to win or Bitcoin's going to win um and but we do fundamentally on some level need institutions to you know to make the country run um we want those instit utes to be properly incentivized. I think Bitcoin does that. Yeah. And I've I don't know if it's a a brain dead theory or a pipe dream, but as somebody
00:46:48 who prefers small government, small federal government, allocate everything to the states, let states rights lead the way. when it comes to the topic of something like a strategic Bitcoin reserve and how to acquire it via a mechanism like bit bonds that excites me because to your points about um individual agency budgets and just the unfettered access to increasing amounts of money. I think there could be a way to get smaller government, but it has to be via Bitcoin where you take care of the debt
00:47:27 problem over the long term. It'll take decades to do it, but ultimately the government grows at the rate that it is because of the debt problem itself to a certain extent. And if you really truly care about manifesting a smaller government, the best way to do that is to help them take care of their debt problem so that they they don't they're not forced to expand at the rate that they have been in recent decades. And that's something that really excites me. And then you mentioned Department of Defense, Department of Energy, think
00:47:57 about mining and its implications. And we've already seen it in Texas, Tennessee, many states like the mining industry has become critical parts of their energy infrastructure has allowed them to expand capacity and made them more individually resilient as as states and and grid systems. And if you begin implementing it in all these different ways, that's the beauty of it too. It's so multifaceted. it can be plugged into many different areas of the economy that you can again might be a pipe dream but
00:48:28 I'm a an idealist optimistic person I guess and when you think when you look at the problems and think of the ways to solve them like Bitcoin to me is honestly one of the only ways to actually solve these problems in the long term yeah and for me people also ask me like was it done for you I mean at the end of the day for me Bitcoin has has made it easy has made it easy not to be cynical. Um especially when you you know you you work in government especially with my line of work. I mean it's easy to become
00:48:56 cynical because things are just constantly breaking. Uh but when you do see something that offers a path maybe you know it's a bit of a return to normal um you can't help but it can't help if you have if you have any like sort of optimism inside you it can't help but erase cynicism. And I think one of the goofiest things you I think early Bitcoiner is like save the money save the world. That sounds really goofy when you first get into Bitcoin. like what does that mean? Um but the longer you're into it, it starts to make sense. Um
00:49:23 because again, you see all the destructive incentives that the basement has allowed to uh to fester in Washington DC. Um again the whatever about Doge, but Doge showed some of it and there's a lot more of it. Um when you when you find a something call that tool that can revert can can you know can reverse that rot um can reincentivize people um to be productive both their time and their resources. How do you not be optimistic? You this this for me is I I I think you know in 10 years this is Bitcoin is either at a
00:49:59 million dollars or is it zero dollars, right? Like it has to go it can't not do one or the other. My personal opinion, right? either a million or zero or higher and higher and higher um because of all the things big corners know. Um but if you when you do get a basic consensus among policy people and not just policy field but also sort of the body politic when you get a basic consensus about something that people think is regenerative um they're going to flock to it. Um, yeah, I say one of the among the controversial things I've
00:50:27 told my Bitcoin friends like the Bitcoiner of 2024 that Gary for was like was Larry Frink. Like the guy, you know, regardless what you thought of where he was before, um, whether it's disingenuous or not, he did some serious thinking and he changed and he opened the door for normies to get into this line of work. Um, and he, you know, when you I hear him talk about Bitcoin, whether it's fake or not, but he gets it. Um he's clearly done some big thinking and it's not easy for a guy that had to change his mind do it
00:50:53 publicly still waiting on Jamie Diamond. Um but I think that when you see someone like Larry Frink a pill literally a pillar of the financial system flip and not just flip like okay fine we'll sell it because we can make money off of it but like no we're going to allocate to this because we believe in its properties and we believe in what it offers not not just our company but the financial system. That's a huge huge shift. And I think people my my father was a was a Wall Street guy. I grew up in New York. My father was a Wall Street
00:51:18 guy. Um, and you know, he's he's 83 years old and I I you know, try to kind of walk him through this and he he gets the basic incentives, but when Larry Finins swave switched, you know, I I heard it from him like, "Oh my god, how'd that happen? Dad, I told you." Um, it's those and the good thing I think the community is generally speaking opening toward people, you you know, people um, you know, penets, right? You oppose it, now you like it. At one point, we all oppose it, right? If you asked me 10 years ago, would you buy
00:51:47 Bitcoin? talking about it's fake internet money. Um, you know, the community has been is is is welcoming to, you know, to to converts and to and to penance. Um, but I, you know, you see these these major major shifts and I think Larry F was was was a pivotal shift. Um, just like I think when you have the deputy director of CIA coming to talk to a Bitcoin conference about Bitcoin policy, that's a huge shift, right? that these these send signals to the world that there are there are important parts of the US establishment
00:52:18 institutions that see this for what it is and they're adopting it and they're thinking about it and they they see its power and we better too because I mean why why else why else would these institutions be doing that? Would would Black Rockck really sink that much cash, that much capital, that much that much credibility into something they didn't believe in just for money? I don't think so. Would Michael Ellis spend half his day going to Bitcoin policy summit because he just thought it was cool and
00:52:42 trendy and the White House liked it? I don't think so. It's It's almost as if everybody finally uh finally found the 2017 meme from from Bitstein. Bitcoin the only winning move is to play. Especially Marty, you're a husband. You're a husband and a parent. You know, it's not that often you get to be right. So like save it. I I savor it. It's uh No, I I I completely agree. I think it's completely binary and I'm uh wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I didn't believe that the binary outcome was going to be the successful one. And
00:53:22 if that's true, it's going to be massive, not only for us individually as Bitcoiners, but for society at large. Um, and it is really exciting and I've been extremely pleasantly surprised with uh pleasantly oversurprised with the work that BPI's done and the effect that it has had on policy discussions. I mean, you're mentioning JD Vance uh and his appearance at the conference being very humble. I mean, he mentioned Bitcoin Policy Institute by name and that was cool. That's one thing I'm curious and I I
00:53:56 won't pretend to be some sort of DC sleuth that's uh very privy to the inner workings of uh all these different think tanks and their influence on policy. But you hear them, the Brooking Brooks, Brookings Institute, Rand, Hoover, KO, you hear a lot. And behind the scenes, they they basically get uh lambasted and made fun of as just academic people who put things out there and never actually change things at least for the most part. Maybe every once in a while they do have some some influence that gets
00:54:33 implemented into policy, but it seems like BPI to me has been out punching its weight class uh as as an early institution as and obviously you're biased as a director of government affairs, but as somebody who's been engrossed in DC culture for many decades, is is that is that a correct characterization in your mind? I mean, it helps when you like when you're shilling a good product, right? like that that that does help. Um, no. Yeah, it does. And I I think you know there some of these institutions like you've
00:55:04 been to DC like you you you drive down K Street, you've got these massive buildings, you know, full of hundreds of people. you mentioned Brookings uh or Heritage, you know, full of former generals and former deputy secretaries of this and that. Um sort of but they, you know, but I think a lot of what BPI's appeal has been a lot of these institutions, these sort of stalwarts of the DC policy scene. Um you know, they're they've been sort of they're not challenging any core narratives. Yes, Brookings is a little bit left and
00:55:33 heritage is a little bit right and they have different opinions about healthcare. They have different opinions about tax policy, right? but all sort of within that sort of traditional Overton window of what has been sort of accepted polite polite cocktail company in Washington for the past how many years you know DPI is a little different um you know there's we're what are we 11 12 employees now um you know I think part of it is we're just we're just telling a different story um and we're we're lucky
00:56:00 and I joke we're shilling a good product but you know when people think back to and everybody has a story about when they first he started Bitcoin it's kind of actually cool when talk to staffers and they tell you, "No, some of my friend told me I should have bought it back in 2018 and I didn't. I'm stupid." Um, but our story is completely different, right? And and it's sort of a I don't know that BPI would be as successful as it has been 5 years ago because this sort of the culture just wasn't ready for it, right? Um there's
00:56:28 there was no talk like you hear now and on basic in regular trifire, right? Fiat debasement. That's a word you never heard five years ago. If you're I follow a lot of financial people on on Twitter. I think there's some smart people out there. Um you never heard about you know fiat debasement. It's never never talked about um maybe because you know we weren't forced to confront it um as a sort of political culture like we are now. So I think BPI definitely benefits from it benefits from a change in the
00:56:54 zeitgeist um about where people see the fiscal situation is and clearly they look for opportunity. They look for options, right? Okay, we're in deep we're in deep here. What do we do? What's an option? No. Well, there's this thing called Bitcoin that this these people are talking about. Let's hear them out and listen to them. Um, and the message resonates. So, I do think there's there's timing like everything else in the world. Good timing helps. Um, shing a good product helps. Um but I think we we are hit we hit it at the
00:57:24 right time um with the right message at uh as a solution to some of what I think there's nothing else in DC there's a consensus that that we can't continue on the same path. Now does everybody believe that Bitcoin is an option? No. To a lot of people yeah and you know our job is to make that that you know that that second group bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah. And apologies it looks like my camera and mic switch. So the the audio sounds a bit different, but on that note, what can we expect in 16 days at
00:57:57 the policy institute? What would you like to get out of this great gathering in DC this year? So I think you know we we did BFA back in March. Um and that was sort of to mark uh the new administration that was to mark the u the establishment of the SPR. Um, I think now the idea is to set now that we we've got these basic wins and I think we've sort of the uh sort of the turn to our Bitcoin in DC at least temporarily has been solidified. You know, the idea is to set the policy agenda for the next
00:58:23 for the next uh this year and for the next year for the end of this Congress. Um, and a lot of our focus is going to be on national security. Um we have a couple panels um people Michael Ellis I mentioned before but some others will talk about about Bitcoin and changing global order which as you read like you know Matt Bines you know our executive director writes prolifically about that um he'll be on stage a lot as will I talking to people about this sort of thing. Um the idea we want we want to
00:58:50 let we want to we want to give part of being a think tank is to put policies out there, right? We want to give DC the agenda um for Bitcoin future and that's what we're going to do in June 25th. Well, Ken, thank you uh for all that you do and for joining me for this conversation. Fascinating. again, even though uh hand up been highly skeptical of the CIA on this show for many years and never had anybody who's worked for the CIA on. So, thank you for coming on and maybe uh over some drinks we can talk about some of my uh
00:59:24 my deeper theories on the CIA, but fears as it pertains to uh as it pertains to Bitcoin policy. I think that's the beauty of it. As we discussed, it's it's binary. the only winning move is to play. And you may not care about political power, but political power cares about you. And I think it's incredibly important that we have people like yourself in positions advocating for for Bitcoin as a protocol, developers as individuals, building on the protocol, and really putting the case forward for Bitcoin as
00:59:56 a economic and geopolitical strategic asset that Americans need to dominate. And as an American citizen and somebody who cares deeply about Bitcoin and the future of America, as an individual who has a small but growing family with young children, uh I think this is important work that for a long time in my Bitcoin career, uh I'd say like the first five or six years, uh you know, I was I was one of those people who said, "Don't even talk to the government. It's not worth it. They hate you and they're
01:00:29 not going to work with you." And maybe they did, but I leave I leave with one thought. I tell people this all the time like don't underestimate your voice. I I I every time I talk, I I leave them with this thought. You know, call your congressman. If you have a Bitcoin meet up, call your member of Congress and invite them to come. They may send a staff member and then, you know, they'll come once or twice. They may show it themselves. Uh don't be afraid to engage. Be polite. Tell them you're a Bitcoiner. Tell them you want them to
01:00:55 support legislation that's pro Bitcoin. Um, and you'd be surprised if they get enough phone calls, they start sending people to your events and they start listening. So, I can't emphasize enough the importance of doing that. It seems like you're sort of yelling at the clouds, but believe me, um, you know, you enough voices, you keep those phones ringing, they start to listen. So, if if people have any questions about who the representatives are or how to find them, feel free just reach out to BPI. We're
01:01:20 happy to help you with that. But, I really really encourage people to do that. It's very, very important. And actually, at the end of the day, if people do it enough, it actually does work. Yeah. And um as it pertains to the summit, right, there's if you're in the industry and you're interested in going, you should still reach out. There's still time. Correct. There's still time. Yes. Um if you want to feel free to hit me up on Twitter. I'm Bayon1771. Feel free to hit me up on Twitter or you can visit the summit website. Um maybe
01:01:50 Marty can post that in the notes. It is btcpolicsummit.org. Awesome. We will link to that. Ken, good luck on the hill today. You look good. You look confident. I think it's going to be a good conversation. I'm going to change some minds and uh I'll see you in DC in a few weeks. Appreciate it. You know it. All right. Have a good one. Thanks. Peace and love, freaks. Freaks. Thank you for listening to the show. I hope you liked it. If you did like it, please make sure you subscribe, rate, review the show. It helps us out a
01:02:20 lot. And also, if you like these conversations, I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast, they don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company. We have the newsletter, the Bitcoin Brief. Go to TFTC.io. Make sure you subscribe there. A lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast I write about 5 days a week in the newsletter. We also have the TFTC elite tier. If you sign up for that, become a member. We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where
01:02:52 we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early. Logan wanted me to make sure if you want to get the show a day early, become a TFTC Elite member. You will get that. We have our Discord server right now. conversation between myself and TFTC elite tier members, but we're going to expand that. We'll probably do close Q&As's with people in the industry. Uh I may be doing macro Mondays. So, join us. Go to tftc.io, subscribe, find the button at the top
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