podcasts
White Paper Studio uses Bitcoin-backed financing to give investors steady returns while enabling indie filmmakers to create original stories free from compromise.
Carlos and Ali, founders of Forager and White Paper Studio, are using a Bitcoin-backed financing model to solve indie filmmakers’ biggest challenge, access to capital, while protecting creative independence. Inspired by Michael Saylor’s treasury strategy, they allocate a portion of raised funds into Bitcoin, using its growth over multi-year terms to repay investors 5–10% in dollars, attracting capital that wouldn’t normally touch film. This model shields artists from investor influence, supports original storytelling in an industry dominated by safe bets and sequels, and promotes transparency by making treasury and repayment performance public. They see AI as a useful tool for concepting but believe human creativity remains irreplaceable, envisioning a future where fully human-made films become a premium choice, funded by smarter, Bitcoin-enabled capital.
“Putting Bitcoin on our balance sheet… is the one thing that’s actually preserving our hard work in the long run.”
“We are in charge of repaying the investor with our Bitcoin strategy and you guys can just focus on the art… They have no say over the creative.”
“Our early investors didn’t even care so much about the films… They could just park it here and get a better yield.”
“There’s less funds going around for risky original IP… It feels like a race to the bottom.”
“There’s no children’s movies these days that actually have real people… It’s all animated stuff.”
“There was a cool trend of betting on artists with great vision… That kind of risk-taking doesn’t exist as much anymore.”
“It’s a great tool… but it’s not a magic bullet.”
“An entirely human production in the future might be like shooting on film now… something authentic and special.”
White Paper Studio’s Bitcoin-backed funding model could quietly transform independent film financing, offering investors steady returns while freeing creators from the commercial constraints of traditional funding. By combining financial resilience, creative autonomy, and transparency, it challenges Hollywood’s risk-averse culture and supports the revival of bold, original storytelling. In a time of AI disruption and shrinking budgets, it shows how Bitcoin can preserve and empower human creativity, potentially sparking a renewed era of risk-taking and authenticity in cinema.
0:00 - Intro
0:36 - The story of Forager
8:11 - Small world for Marty
10:48 - Whtppr and the indie film capital problem
19:04 - Bitkey & Opportunity Cost
20:43 - Mechanics of the bitcoin fund
27:36 - Defining success for Whtppr
30:25 - Unchained
31:12 - Bringing back what’s been lost
42:12 - Upcoming short films
44:34 - AI content
56:46 - Wrapping
(00:00) We took a lot of inspiration from Sailor. Our early investors, they didn't even care so much about the films. They were just kind of like, "Oh, I have mutual funds giving me this. I could just park it here and I get a better yield." It is causing the industry to contract. Putting Bitcoin on our balance sheet for a germ, it is the one thing that's actually preserving our hard work in the long run because we still need great films that are telling human stories that are made by people with people.
(00:26) Film is perhaps one of the riskiest business you can get into as an investor. Carlos and Alli, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Marty. This is uh I'm I'm happy to be speaking with you guys cuz it's a budding theme on this show.
(00:50) very small theme but a budding one and one that excites me because I think it's a a signal that that Bitcoin is breaking out of the bubbles, the community bubbles that have existed in my 12 years following. It seems that what you guys are doing at Forager really validates Bitcoin being used as a tool by by anybody, not just cipher punks or people that care about sound money, but what you guys are doing at Forager in the world of entertainment.
(01:20) and Carlos, we were just talking before you we hit record that you heard my discussion with Johnny Vance um from Total Twins and Angel Studio and reached out and as I was also telling you I have a friend a very very close friend and we've been talking about this idea quite a bit the intersection of Bitcoin and entertainment in attempt to get better art into the world and let smaller um artists, content creators, whatever you want to define them as uh get their work into the world and actually give them a chance to compete with the the mega studios of the world.
(01:56) So before we jump into the the broader discussion of this intersection, why don't we start with a couple introductions just um how you guys got to where you are, what you're doing at Forager, and um what uh what got you to the to thinking about Bitcoin specifically? Sure.
(02:20) Um, Carl, I can give my intro then I'll let you take it. Um, so I went to film school. I majored in screenwriting and then I found my way to New York. I landed in advertising. So it was not where I expected to be after film school. You know, right out of film school, I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to work for a studio.
(02:38) I'm going to be on set. I'm going to, you know, live the dream. And I found that being on set and everything that I had imagined about film making, once I did get my feet wet into some live action production for commercials was not super aligned with the way that I uh prefer to to live my life and to structure my life.
(03:06) I'm very routine oriented and I really enjoyed how how the tech side of postp production was evolving and could make so many more things possible than you know just what it is captured on set. Now so much respect for what happens on set. I just was not of that same you know mindset and stamina to be working those kinds of hours.
(03:30) Um, and so I found my way into the post-production side of advertising and um, worked as an EP at a couple of different post houses. And along the way, I met Carlos um, and we decided to start forager together after working together for some time and I was getting ready to move into the freelance world, which he had been occupying for um, his entire career up until that point um, before moving from New York to Portland.
(04:03) So that was what um gave the idea to start Forager as a remote collective of post-prouction artists. Uh we saw at the time that there was a real need to give a platform for individuals in the post space who were not represented by legacy post houses for any number of reasons. You know they enjoyed being freelance. They liked the autonomy, having their own brand, and they just needed that production support which I could bring um to the team and which we've built alongside the producers at Forager along the way.
(04:35) Um and different already different tech was available to us at that time at like Slack and and Frame.io that made it possible to collaborate in real time from anywhere. Um, so we launched Forager with this unique perspective on bringing together the best talent no matter where they were located. Um, so we're pioneers in that sense because it was still um different to say that we didn't have um a a brick and mortar place to go to for clients to go to to supervise.
(05:10) And then that was January 2019, a year later it became the norm during co for everyone to work remotely. So, a little bit ahead of the game there. Um, and we've taken everything we've learned from from building this um this network of great creative and um Charles will, you know, give his intro and how we started building Bitcoin into the picture as well along the way. Yeah. Uh, yeah.
(05:37) Essentially, exactly what Ali said. I think Bitcoin surprisingly entered our radar very early on almost by uh yeah almost by chance uh because uh we started the company 2019. the pandemic hit 2020 and we were down of course as everyone else for for a little bit and at that moment I was uh starting to just research you know what stocks to buy like any like every person back then and I stumbled upon Bitcoin in the at the moment just from like an interview that I saw on YouTube and um and yeah I bought it personally not knowing much just kind of like bought it personally as an opportunity Uh Alli and I are good friends. So I I
(06:23) talked Alli into buying some personally as well. Uh and we were so small and informal. We were like, you know, it why not buy it and put it on forers balance sheet. Uh and this was before uh even a sailor had appeared on uh on X. It was like I think June 2020 when we first bought and we were small. We just bought I think one to begin with.
(06:49) Um and yeah, then uh we we saw the whole strategy thing happening. We were like, "Oh, this is going to be a thing." So we we started buying more. Um still a humble treasury. Uh but um but yeah, of course, we rode the whole thing up to the 60K.
(07:08) Then we felt a little silly when, you know, it it went all the way down in the bare market. Uh but that was kind of like our uh introduction to Bitcoin. like we buy by by buying it almost naively at first not knowing much but then you see this thing going up. We learned what it was. We got orange filled in the process and uh and we thankfully held it for this whole time and it was only in um earlier this year where we were like dealing with some uh liquidity crunches that we were like you know we have built this treasury.
(07:40) we want to maintain it and uh and we thought what if we were to uh leverage that treasury in order to raise some funds so we can uh survive and like you know get through this uh rocky period and so we did that but we also announced to the world you know like we are proud Bitcoin holders and we we have a mandate now of holding this Bitcoin treasury and u and growing it uh and and that's on the four-year side and eventually comes the film studio part which is like our next chapter. Yeah. No, it's funny.
(08:14) This is uh a bit of worlds colliding for me because my wife, she actually she did post-prouction for Macan Ericson for I think 12 years and she was on the uh the Microsoft account and I Ally as you were describing those long nights and postp prods where she'd be working till 2 a.m. every night and I think her team specifically did localization for global campaigns.
(08:40) Yes. So the the her coming home after those long nights just describing I was like what what do you guys do? It's like we just sit in a room and rewatch the commercial uh about a thousand times and try to nitpick and make sure everything's compliant. I learned a lot about post-production basically from doing localization initially because yeah you have to really understand all the files that you need to to you know to update the graphics the voice over. I had some really late calls, you know, trying to
(09:10) get voice over um from the team in China, you know, those sorts of things. So, yeah, it's um very technical. You do watch the same thing over and over again, but you get the, you know, you get the detail oriented part of it and why it's so important. You know, there's like funny intric intricacies like France or South Korea, I forget.
(09:30) You can't have electronics in the same still as water or something like that. It's you learn you do learn a lot about what what plays in different markets. Yeah. is and isn't allowed. Yeah. So, not to say that post-production doesn't have late nights, it certainly does. Um, but it can be a little little different still in how much you can control the different factors I feel like. Yeah.
(09:55) But like tying this into what your initiative is now, like she ran them she was on the Microsoft account for I think five or six years and I got somewhat I got like an arms length perspective of just like the world of like big corporate sort of ad spend and like how much money they were putting into it and what was actually being produced and they put together great commercials.
(10:21) Um, but it was always insane to me like how much they were spending on all this and uh when you think of trying to compete with that like it becomes becomes hard and in this postco world that you guys described it seems like it's becoming easier but you just need to combine a bunch of tools and creative thinkers to to really be the upstart competitor with these behemoths whether it's in the corporate world doing advertisements or um in in the film world with the the major studios.
(10:50) Um, and so I think that's a good jumping off point for the white paper uh for white paper uh the studio and how you guys are thinking of basically arming indie creators with the financial um tools to to make sure that they can get their art out into the world. Yeah. Um, so like you said, from all that we've learned competing with these big companies and holding our own because we could see that we needed to be nimble and that really is the name of the game, especially with how quickly um things like AI are moving.
(11:31) Every every week it seems like there's a new development, something that is making the expectation that you should be moving faster and doing things cheaper. um that is affecting every part of film making and as we've seen through putting Bitcoin on our balance sheet at Forager it is the one thing that's actually preserving our hard work in the long run and when we realized we could have a model to help filmmakers with this because we still need great films that are telling human stories that are made by people with people and not just leaning into AI to make things faster
(12:13) and cheaper because there just isn't any there isn't the same amount of funding available anymore. Let's incorporate the tech and the tool that is Bitcoin to preserve those efforts. And like Carlos said and you know we can talk about more separating the investment from the art to a degree.
(12:37) You know bringing in a whole another set of investors who are interested in the returns that can be offered from our model and and not just waiting for a film to make money. Of course, the the hope for everyone is that the film will sell and be seen and and generate returns. Um, but you know, let's lean into the the Bitcoin backing to bring in more money and then we can use the returns from a sale of a film to reinvest in the company and back more films and continue this cycle. you know, continue to invest in our stories and our people and not
(13:12) just um participate in a race to the bottom, which is what we were feeling we were becoming a part of. Yes. So, I do want to touch on the AI stuff. We can do that later. But I think just digging into the problem that indie filmmakers have right now, let's sort of paint that landscape for for the audience.
(13:42) What do like when what are the biggest pain points that indie filmmakers run into? I imagine capital is one of them, but um like what how hard is it for them to compete I guess is the question. Um yeah, I mean I guess as a first uh step for context, uh I think film is perhaps one of the riskiest business you can get into as an investor in the sense that uh you can have a great recipe for success with like a great script and great talent and a great director and the movie can still flop like it can still get no traction.
(14:16) So, of course, there's a lot of pressure on the on the investing side. Uh, and I think you touched upon a little bit on on on the episode with Johnny, but yes, like uh especially in in slower times, uh, I think Hollywood and even the streaming uh networks, they're betting on safer projects. uh the there's a lot more bet on sequels and spin-offs and uh just um any project that will guarantee some sort of success or return for the investor.
(14:48) So of course that leaves artists with original ideas and and riskier projects that have no track record of financial success um at the bottom, you know, of the of the list. Um and uh we we think that betting on great talent and original ideas is a winning formula, but you have to give it time and you have to like experiment and try and uh I think there are not many companies betting on that kind of uh raw uh story or film uh at at the moment.
(15:32) Uh we really like for example A24 what they did uh especially in the early days like they were thinking very long term betting uh small amounts of money but on like really risky projects just trying to build the IP for the future and I think they were very successful at it and they built a brand around it and even a cult following.
(15:55) Um but of course as you grow and you become more established uh that kind of risk takingaking can only can only uh last for so long and of course uh they had to take investor money in the last I I forget when it was that they took like a big round of of private investment and of course that changes the recipe right like they now you have uh people depending on you to make make your numbers and uh and that affects ultimately the artist, right? Like there's less funds going around for new uh risky original IP. Um so that's kind of
(16:34) like the biggest problem that we set out to to solve with this. Um Alli, I don't know if I I missed something. No, I mean bottom line, I do think the biggest issue is access to capital and the reason why is, you know, multiaceted. But if you're talking smaller than A24, it's finding those investors.
(17:02) And I know that a a lot of our independent artists are relying on angel investors, friends, family, Kickstarter. You know, it takes a lot to bring together a production. And there's often no guarantee that the investors are going to to make their money back. And this is how people have to start. you know, you got to start somewhere.
(17:27) Um, I think very few get into the industry right away with name recognition and a lot of backing and investors who know for sure they're making their money back. So, um, along with the other challenges in this industry, um, I see this contributing to a a diminishing amount of available funding for original ideas because like I said, it it does feel like a race to the bottom.
(17:55) And um we just we've like you said we've only seen Bitcoin preserve our you know the value that we brought to our clients and our companies. So let's bring that you know make it available to independent artists but also it's not just about um you know convincing people to invest in Bitcoin because most people still obviously do not feel comfortable.
(18:21) And so let's make this appear as um accessible as possible for for investors so they can look at it as an alternative to their their stocks or you know the 401k or whatever might be giving them between 5 and 10% you know and they can also contribute to the arts because I do think that there is a large selling point from the conversations I've had of saying hey we can preserve original storytelling and um you know potentially beat the hurdle of AI that is coming for all of the films and the content that we're that we're consuming and they want
(18:57) to be a part of that and it's great that then they can make some you know money and potentially beat inflation along the way. So freaks this rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey. Bit Key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose. It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a 2 or3 multisig.
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(20:04) It's called Opportunity Cost, and it helps you see the true cost of everything in Bitcoin. Convert prices to Bitcoin as you browse the web. Opportunity cost automatically displays fiat prices in Bitcoin or SATS helping you think in a Bitcoin standard. It works on Amazon, Zillow X, your bank account, QuickBooks. You can convert everything to Bitcoin. It's really cool. It's also 100% open- source MIT license.
(20:27) We don't collect any data. All of the conversions happen in your browser on your local device. It's a great way to recalibrate your life and begin thinking in SATS. Go check it out at opportunitycost.app. That's opportunitycost.app. Let's dive into the mechanics of how you guys are envisioning Bitcoin as a funding mechanism actually work.
(20:55) So, is white paper just building a big treasury and using that to fund films or is there intent like cuz when when you guys DM me and you sort of explain the top level of the idea in text, I couldn't think of help but think of a company that we've partnered with a 1031 battery finance, but they're focused on the commercial real estate uh market and their credit fund.
(21:20) And so they raise dollars into a credit fund, underwrite projects, uh give them lend them dollars with a portion of those dollars 10 to 20% being put in Bitcoin held within the loan structure throughout the duration of the loan typically 8 10 15 years whatever it may be. Is your model similar in that sense where it's a combination of dollars and bitcoin and you're sort of underwriting individual products and making sure that they're bolstered with a mini bitcoin treasury.
(21:51) Uh yeah, essentially we uh we took a lot of inspiration uh from sailor and also the the original bond that we created ourselves for. But basically we uh let's say that we uh a film needs $50,000 uh for production like a short film. Uh we raise a bigger amount uh than that and uh uh portion of that amount raised goes directly into Bitcoin which we use to repay the investor and um and the rest goes directly into production.
(22:37) Uh but by doing that Bitcoin split investment we are able to repay the original uh the original loan plus the interest which is 5 to 10%. Uh so essentially yes we're are growing a treasury uh that allows us to grow more and more uh but then every film financed has a bitcoin portion uh attached to it uh and it's running in the back and its function is to repay the original investor and we're not paying the investor in bitcoin we're just paying them in dollars uh and we have a few variations but it's between 5 and 10% Uh now this is not something to make someone rich you know from these bonds
(23:18) but it is essentially uh uh comparable to like uh high yield savings or like uh or like a treasury bond. Um but on the end of it you not only get your 5 to 10% annualized return you also get to finance a film. Uh so and on the artist side we uh we are able we're able to tell them you know uh we are in charge of repaying the investor with our Bitcoin strategy and you guys can just focus on the art and you will not hear any notes from the the investors. They have no say over the creative. Uh so that's uh we like that
(24:00) separation because we think that's how like uh great films you know can be made. That's a very important separation, right? So you guys are sort of acting as the the how would I describe this? Um the wall of safety between the artist and the capital and handling that. It makes sense. So like I guess from the investor's perspective it's like all right I'm comfortable doing this because I have this funnily enough counterintuitive to most people but has proven to be true historically de-risking by putting a portion of my principle in the Bitcoin that will be
(24:38) that will at least preserve its pursing power if not potentially increase. And then they've got a call option on the movie being a massive success I imagine um in getting royalties cuz I imagine they get equity in the films themselves as well. So it's funny right now we have three variations of the product and it's kind of like different for different risk appetites.
(25:06) the the 5% yield one has Bitcoin uh securing the loan, not the full obligation, but the the capital uh and you get your 5%, you know, return, but if something were to happen to the company or anything, you know, that bitcoin is pledged to you and that bitcoin is from our treasury. Uh we have on the higher risk side we have the 10% uh annualized uh and that one has no early redemption.
(25:38) All these are are set to 5-year loans so that you know there we can let Bitcoin appreciate and we're not uh liable for all the fluctuations. Uh so we have those products right now and so far nobody has asked us about uh equity in the film surprisingly. Um, and I think it's also because of our early investors. Uh, they didn't even care so much about the films. They were just kind of like, "Oh, I have mutual funds giving me this. I could just park it here and I get a better yield.
(26:05) " And, uh, and Oh, that's fascinating. So, it it is kind of opening doors to capital that would never touch films. Uh but of course I think we have a whole gamma of potential uh people that could you know like that may also want some yield as you're saying like some kicker from the film. Yeah.
(26:26) Is there uh is this model catching on? Is anybody in the film industry or just creative industry in general seeing what you guys are doing and being like oh this is interesting. Are they deriding you? Are they cheering you on? Um I would say that the the response has been really positive. Um, no one has come for us and said, "What you're doing is crazy and you should stop doing this." Uh, maybe they think it.
(26:50) I wouldn't be surprised, but um, it's been very positive. It might be catching on. We don't know. But like you, you said earlier, we're really only aware of Angel Studios incorporating Bitcoin on the balance sheet in, you know, entertainment um, company. We aren't aware of anyone else doing something similar.
(27:12) I think that it will eventually become part of the strategy for most companies and you know that's a broader conversation I suppose on Bitcoin treasury companies. Um, but as far as we know, we're one of the earlier movers and maybe people are waiting to see how it, you know, what kind of results we get from this.
(27:38) I mean, that's a good question because when it comes to like Sailor and his strategy and just Bitcoiners who've gotten into Bitcoin early, generally it typically takes a bit of time for their conviction to be validated. So like at what level would you consider the strategy a success for you guys? Well I think once we have repaid our first loan like we're very new we just launched um white paper anyhow you know forger's been around for 6 years but um white paper we just launched a couple months ago and maybe less than that actually. So, our first two short films just filmed this last weekend. So, we're
(28:19) going to head into post-prouction. We'll have something to share hopefully by the end of the year. We'll start submitting to festivals. I think in the next year, we'll really start to see the how things are received, how the Bitcoin element is, you know, is part of the marketing or not part of the marketing. We're also not pushing that.
(28:42) We're not trying to say, you know, everyone has to be talking about how it's backed by Bitcoin. I think it's an interesting talking point personally um you know obviously but our artists aren't you know we're not asking them to go out and spread the word about the Bitcoin backing unless they you know want to talk about how it's made it possible to fund their film.
(29:04) So I think in the next year or two we'll um start to see how you know it's changing the way that the industry is funding films. Um and for us it'll be a first test of the model. Yeah. And I also uh I think we right now we're dealing with shorter form projects but I think the goal is to uh get features soon and we think that in theory as as Bitcoin grows exponentially so will our treasury and we will have even more funds uh to play with uh then and uh I think another portion of it is that we do want to make everything public and put kind of like um the treasury live, but also how every film uh how every film is attached to a
(29:53) bitcoin back bond uh online and we want to show also the performance of each bond so people can see oh this film is being repaid live you know like uh with bitcoin in the bag so it's not just uh it's I think it's a new way to measure a film's uh success it's not just box office it's not just um you know uh fees uh it's uh art can be you know funded with Bitcoin's performance.
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(31:17) On to the very interesting stuff, like what what do you think the film industry is lacking right now in terms of types of movies that are being made, um, themes that are avoided, stories that aren't being told that you guys are excited to back? That's a really good question. I'll say this. I'll add this just for some context because my wife and I and our brother and sister-in-law, we were having a conversation a couple weeks ago over dinner uh how we all four of us have young children. We have between us four soon to be five under the age of 10.
(31:56) and we were sort of complaining to each other that there's no children's movies these days that actually have like real people. It's all like animated stuff. And we were reminiscing about the '9s movies that we loved like Dennis the Menace, Home Alone, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, you name like a bunch of really good children's movies.
(32:27) Um yeah, what was a Stephen King movie uh about the boys? Um can't believe that's escaping my name. uh my mind. But regardless, it seems like we were we were just we have nonchalantly noticed the sort of fiatification of kids movies where it's like all these animated movies, which some of them are really good, but um you're like, "God, I wish the kids had had like live action films like we did growing up that um they they just seem to be missing out on.
(33:03) " And that's something that we were just a couple weeks ago saying, I wish somebody would fund movies like that. Yeah, I I mean that is a great point. Um I also have a couple younger kids and I love animated films. I was originally drawn to film making because I loved the look of stopotion films and then also realized I could never be a stopotion animator. Also a very hard thing to do all day long. Um but so so I love animation. I love what you can do there.
(33:27) But you're right, having live action and just seeing other real kids on screen. I know we're supposed to limit their screen time. I agree with that. But sometimes it's necessary. And like my one-year-old daughter loves to hold pictures of her family.
(33:46) And I think just seeing the real people in a photo is like still kind of novel, especially with the screens and, you know, all that they have access to these days. Yeah. We uh we had a we had a Friday night movie night the other week and the kids watch Meet the Parents and it was just funny watching them react to it. Uh they got emotional in some of the parts and uh it's like gosh it doesn't it feel and that came out I think in like 2000 or 2001 and it's like you don't have any great movies like that anymore. And then Carlos you mentioned it we talked about it with Johnny. It just seems like
(34:20) Hollywood these days, you're just stuck in this sort of superhero universe sequel machine. It's like, okay, I I don't need another Marvel movie. Let's let's get something interesting here. Yeah. I mean, I was going to mention I I got into film making because of all the aours in the '9s like uh Paul Thomas Anderson, Tarantino, uh even Sophia Coppola.
(34:47) Um, and I feel like there was a cool trend back then of betting on artists with great vision and you just bet a lot of money on them and hopefully one of them will be a great film. Um, I feel like that was a risktaking form that doesn't exist as much anymore. Of course, there's still the big festival circuit and all that, but um not a lot of studios betting on a tours and uh just uh trusting, you know, the the uh artist vision in that way.
(35:25) And I think it's uh gets to what we're talking about, just like less risk-taking overall. Yeah. Like there's no modern day maul rats or airheads. Exactly. Mhm. It's uh Dogma those are I love those movies growing up and it's interesting and it seems like the deprecation of that risk takingaking happened pretty quickly within the last 15 20 years which may seem like a long time to some people but really isn't that long a period of time. No.
(35:55) And and on a similar note cuz I think what's kind of underpinning you know your examples and and is comedy and you know with the cancellation um late late night with Steven Colbear and I was listening to a podcast about how comedy and like adult comedy films also has seen I don't know it's been it has not been something that studios have been investing in for a long time where you used to have, you know, like Anchor Man and those sorts of movies that have just become classics and they're so good, but they don't invest in comedy the way they used to. And it also seems to be tracking this trend of of of
(36:38) comedians having their individual platforms on social media. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. like how much of the landscape has shifted because of the emergence of social media and these different mediums cuz everything's gone to like one two minute clips. Uh and you see it like on not that I'm on TikTok but people share them on Twitter and you see it on Instagram like these individual creator accounts that have like a certain stick and they make like a minute video. It's pretty, it's not incredible production, but it's enough to grab your attention and a lot of the
(37:17) eyeballs are going there. And I think that's another another sort of theme that's been discussed uh between my wife and our our brother and sister-in-law is like the attention span. um like bringing back like longer form content and like putting your phone down actually engaging in a piece of art for longer than 120 seconds and uh extending that to 120 minutes is something that I'd like to return to.
(37:48) And we actually we went and saw the F1 movie a couple of weeks ago and it was uh it was actually fun. It was a fun movie. I really liked it and it felt good to be in the That was the first time I was in the theater I think since co actually no last summer we took the kids to see a movie but I've only since co I think I've been to the theater like three or four times maybe and uh going to see movies in the theater is something that I think is becoming a lost sort of practice in society and that's very sad because it is a fun experience. Yeah, I I saw this fascinated
(38:22) fascinating interview with Nikki Glazer, the comedian, and uh yeah, she was basically saying that she lives for the for the YouTube clips or the Tik Tok clips. Um and that's how people really consume your media and that's how also they uh assess if you're successful at something like if you are walking red carpets or if you have clips here and there.
(38:52) Uh but when it comes to the numbers, nobody even though all these comedians have these HBO specials, uh very few people actually watch all that. Like the media really really lives in the in all the clips and all the secondary content that people extract from all those specials. Um which is a little sad because we we of course want to make long films and and proper features. Uh but yeah, then then you're competing with the attention span of the the new generation.
(39:18) Yeah. And I mean this ties back to Bitcoin, too, cuz it's really incentive driven. Um all these platforms are trying to sell ads and they just need volume of one to two minute clips getting millions of views to sell ads into in the monetary sort of incentive disruption. That's how it manifests. Exactly. Yep.
(39:40) I do think we skim over TV a little bit because we're like we're marrying this, you know, the short commercial side of things which is like what Forager has done and now with white paper we want to see a reemergence of original ideas and film.
(40:00) I actually consume like more TV than film and there is still a lot of great content in TV and watching some really funny shows as well. Um, so I I feel like maybe that's where Hollywood's been hedging its bets a little bit in the streaming and the TV because it does still um I guess apply to our shorter attention spans. You we don't have to go to the theater and make a whole outing out of it and you know spend 2 and 1 half 3 hours.
(40:26) I think it's also been an interesting thing is that the movies have gotten so long. It's like to get you to commit to going to a theater and then spending four plus hours. Um it's like it's completely in the other direction. And I don't know if that was a if that was intentional, but I it definitely keeps me from going to the theater.
(40:49) Not that I would be able to as much anyways. Like you were saying too, it's pretty hard when you have young kids to find the time to go and make those arrangements. But then thinking, okay, if we're gonna go, it's gonna be a three plus hour commitment. It's a lot because everyone's pretty busy. Yeah. Like Yeah.
(41:07) Like a 90minute movie is perfect. And yes, I just did research. Carlos, you were mentioning Tarantino. I think one of my favorite films of all time is Reservoir Dogs. And Okay. Just looked it up. An hour and 40 minutes. probably longer back then, but yeah, if you can get like a 90minute quick hit and that's like that's where the artistry really comes in is the people that have the ability to like tell the story in a 90minute span and really get you emotional and have you thinking after Yeah. And I know watch something like
(41:40) Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon like wait I basically did watch a movie so I'm telling myself I can't go make time for a movie. I mean, it's definitely easier to sit in front of my TV and stream something than going to the theater, but some of these shows are are really long and they captivate you and you go, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I've been sitting here for, you know, over an hour.
(41:59) " And I think there's a balance to be struck too there. And again, finding that, like you said, consolidation of a story into 90 minutes, which is like when I was growing up, that that was a full film for me, too. Yeah. I'm curious with the uh the short films that you guys are funding now via way paper, what what type of themes and stories are they leaning into if you're free to disclose? Yeah. U so what we're looking at right now, we do have um some comedy.
(42:33) So it seems to be again an opinion and discussion and I think we're all looking for a bit of escape from the dayto-day. and that's what comedy can provide. So, we have two short films that are um comedic in nature. Uh one's a satire as well um on the fashion industry. And so, I'm really I'm really excited to see that one come to life.
(42:56) Um and then we've got more of a coming of age story that will be in development next year. Also, um more like deeply rooted in like the political polarization of our country. Um, so that's interesting because I do think those themes are avoided um for I'm sure obvious reasons in Hollywood at this time.
(43:26) And then another project that will be finished up early next year that is more like a documentary series and there's a couple episodes for proof of concept there. So it runs the gamut. We're really trying to find a balance in our our slate or our portfolio. Yeah. And especially I feel feel like we're always uh trying to look for uh projects that don't seem like that are as commercially viable or that wouldn't uh seem as attractive to a traditional like film investor.
(43:58) And like one of the projects that we just shot this weekend is that it's basically just physical comedy and it's two people physically fighting over a piece of lint that they found uh that fell on someone's shoulder. Uh so it's no dialogue, pure fighting.
(44:22) Uh just and and it's just in my opinion it's just original like uh it doesn't have to fit a specific genre. Um, so yeah, we're kind of playing Yeah. with the whole gamma of like content. Oh, yeah. And they would be remiss of me not to bring it up because we mentioned it earlier, but what are what are your thoughts on this explosion of AI generated content? And how do you view it as people working in the industry? Is it a tool that you see yourself leveraging or do you think there's going to be a market for like bolts to nuts beginning to end produced shot acted produced
(45:06) by by humans that people will want to consume instead of the AI cuz hand up we've been experimenting with the uh the AI generated content just to tell stories. that we don't think are being told in little two-minute clips uh in an attempt to draw attention to a web browser extension that we launched. And it's been fun experimenting with that.
(45:32) But there is like a part of me it's like ah this is cheap, relatively easy. It's having it's getting us good exposure. But um there is the the romantic in me that that thinks that we need to preserve like actual human film making, acting and storytelling. For sure. Yeah. I mean thoughts. No, I I mean I think it's a very sensitive subject of course in our field because uh as much opportunity as there is of course a lot of people on the artistry side also feel the threat uh because these programs were getting better and better every day and uh um I
(46:21) personally think that uh you still need a a good amount taste if you're going to be creating these creative uh videos or images just because there's still a lot of AI that looks a little bit plasticky, a little bit uh if you don't know how to prompt it, but also if you don't give it good references, uh it ends up looking still artificial.
(46:46) Uh all of that's changing. Um, and still I think a lot of people are treating it as u more individual frames or individual clips, not so much like storytelling. Like I've seen very few uh actual sequences that tell a story that moves you or have a beginning and end.
(47:15) Uh so that's still I think uh in the starting uh phase but I see a lot of opportunity especially because uh we have uh this artist that we collaborate with uh a lot and he's very much into AI and uh he only sees opportunity. He uh he's very tech-savvy as well and he was like you know in the past if I had this idea of like spiders robot spiders coming down from the ceiling uh and I wanted to to propose that to a client or to like another creative it would be a whole discussion right like they like you would pitch it then they would be like okay well do we need a whole VFX team in India uh to so
(47:53) we can outsource it because it's a lot of like work a lot of manh hours And it's discussions with the VFX company. So it's a huge long process just to come up with spiders coming from the from the ceiling. And he's like with AI, I can do it overnight. Uh I can just work on my prompts.
(48:16) I can be in the zone creatively and I can accomplish my vision just myself with a computer. Uh so in a way that's really empowering I think for a creative as well. Uh the question is does the AI overtake that everyone like even even the person creating uh making those decisions. I think that's the debate. Oh, sorry, Ally.
(48:46) I was going to say I was going to say it's been fun experimenting it with like but even what we've produced like it's obviously AI we haven't crossed the uncanny uncanny valley either. And I'm under the belief that like all the AGI ASI talk coming out of Silicon Valley from like the Sam Almans of the world is more hype than actual M.
(49:10) Like I don't think AI is going to be able to replace human creativity. So like the idea that you're just going to launch these models and they're going to come up with these unique stories that that humans actually connect with. I'm a bit skeptical of even with the crazy advancements that we've seen over the last few years. could be wrong, but I don't know.
(49:28) I just have a hunch that you can't create consciousness um in in the digital world, in the machine world, if you will, no matter how vehemently Sam Alman and others are telling you that that they're doing just that. Yeah. I And you're right. It is not a replacement for humans ideas and and good creative. You can augment it. It can be a great springboard.
(49:59) We've used it to concept things, you know, before they need to be sent to someone to really bring that vision to life because it requires so many different tools. Even generating images like Carlos has done for certain projects just again like temp let's see what we could do. Someone wants this thing in, you know, in the shot to move faster or to behave differently.
(50:27) You know, what would it take? what could it look like? It's great for a kind of experimentation and stress testing, but it's not a magic bullet. And you we were we were um pitching on a job last week that has a really tight turnaround and needs a lot of EFX help. And the you know, the thinking is that oh, cuz it's such a tight turnaround like let's just plug it into AI and make it happen, right? It's not like that.
(50:54) you know, there's you have to take into consideration continuity and and Carlos had brought up at that point during the pitch. You know, every time you you generate the image again, something's going to be a little off and you can get really good at prompting. You can only take it so far before someone else has to come in, another VFX artist to, you know, make everything perfect and consistent and take certain things out and add others in so that you're not ending up with a new set of variables every time. So, it's a great tool.
(51:18) It has definitely sped up some concepting for us and for clients. Um I know that they are leaning into it in um advertising, you know, just to generate customer research and and stress as whether a certain demographic will respond in a certain way to their idea.
(51:42) They can collate all of that research to, you know, ask the the AI if it's going to work or not. I don't know how well that's going to serve them in the long run, but it's interesting because like you said, building consciousness that seems like too tall of a task. I think they're trying. I think they might get pretty close. Um, but overall, it is not going to completely replace what we're doing.
(52:06) And and we love novel things and and computers have to be trained on something and then know what to deliver consistently. um and so I don't think anyone's going to react to AI content um in the long run like and and engage in it the same way um if we didn't have anyone coming up with the ideas that would make the content different or more um you know more relatable for certain situations or what's going on you know in society.
(52:39) So there's always going to be a human driver, but it is um causing the industry to contract because like Carl said, things can happen faster. They can happen with fewer people. And so the entire industry and by industry and being mostly speaking from u you know post-prouction in the advertising space, but then you know further into narrative as well. it.
(53:02) We need to to reorganize ourselves and understand that it's going to require even more um nimleness and more modular with our relationships and our vendors and even be you know before and that was that's been Forager's entire you know foundation is being nimble and um we still find ourselves going okay let's keep up with this new tech and what does this mean what do we really need to invest in now.
(53:30) Yeah, I feel like you guys are ahead of the curve just in the business model being nimble, small, um, and boutique. Maybe that might be the right word or the wrong word, but it's the word that comes to my mind. And hopefully what I would imagine is there definitely disruption going on, people worried, but hopefully that that wall of worry turns into people recognizing like, oh, there's a lot of opportunity here and you see like the uh the world of a thousand flowers bloom where instead of having the major studios
(54:01) dominate everything, people recognize the cost of being cut and they can compete and they a world of 10,000 foragers emerges and you have this sort of competition for story telling. ing um maybe a combination of human uh AI production. Maybe there's there will be some there's like AI only, others that are human only.
(54:28) Um and it could create like a really cool competitive environment that ultimately should lead to more creativity and better better film out there. Yeah, definitely. And I was having a conversation with another person in our field a few months ago and and he equated an entirely human production in the future being like shooting on film now. Like I really want to shoot on film. It's going to look so authentic instead of, you know, just using a digital camera.
(54:53) Um, and then it's like, okay, well, let's think about that. We have to, you know, this is how you have to treat film and process it and this is the lead time it takes. And if we just, you know, if we're short on time and money, we'll just use the digital camera. And I think that it is a very good analogy to use for you know as we move forward with AI you and it gets better and better it's like okay what is it you have time and money and you want to make something that's entirely human no AI etc. Um great but do we you know
(55:21) need to make some sacrifices or you know cut a few corners and bring in the AI and that's just something that's going to be part of everyone's thinking when they're doing their concepting and strategy. Yeah, and as you guys are proving a white paper like Bitcoin can be the tool to enable that that those teams that want to like be the film of the next era uh recording on film of the next era which is doing everything with humans only like that's enabled with smarter and um smarter capital of funding for these for these films.
(55:58) Yeah. Yeah. Like we said in the beginning, it preserves the effort that we're putting in today. And you know, our industry has seen a bit of a race to the bottom because your money doesn't go as far and everyone's company is operations have been contracting for a number of reasons.
(56:21) So your nest egg for making that film might only get you half a film by the time you get around to making it because that's the other thing is it takes a long time to to raise capital and set up a production and and you know you just can't keep up. You can't really keep up and so you got to find ways to um do it cheaper and faster and unfortunately that doesn't um support like original good creative film making in the long run. Yeah, this is exciting.
(56:48) Like I said in the beginning, this is I love having you two on because I think it's a validation that that Bitcoin is breaking out of the relatively small bubble it's existed in its first 16 years um since the protocol launched. And I'm a true believer in um sort of people seeing uh a company like Forager and White Paper doing what you guys are doing, getting inspired.
(57:18) And as it pertains to like Bitcoin's adoption over the long run, I think it's projects like the ones that you guys are working on that are like sneaky edge cases that can have profound effects on others. cuz for the longest time, like I said, it's been cipher punks and Austrian e economics nerds that have really leaned into Bitcoin.
(57:43) But I think we just need to normalize Bitcoin as a tool for for anybody, not just those who are either economically or politically uh cons of of the spectrum of economics or politics. Uh Bitcoin is simply a tool that anybody can use. And I think what you guys are doing at Forager and White Paper is an incredible example of that. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. Um, yeah.
(58:08) No, and and and you're right, it's it's a tool for everyone. It's still very hard to uh get Bitcoin across to our circle because it's very early on. Um, just explaining our concept to fellow filmmakers. Uh, it sounds too good to be true sometimes. Uh, also, you know, like you get to make your art.
(58:33) uh no uh no need to worry about the investment and to the investors will get you your returns. You don't need to worry about the film's performance. Um so uh you can only accomplish that with a tool like Bitcoin. So uh hopefully hopefully it catches on and um and we can make some great stuff.
(58:53) Where can uh anybody listening to this find out more about what you two are up to? So, um, you can follow us on on X and that's going to be at white paper and for our purposes it's spelled wh studio. Um, also Instagram, great for um, more of our behind the scenes and actual teasers of the better visual medium for us there. It's also at white paper whpppr.studio. Um either of those places are good ways to follow what we're up to.
(59:33) Awesome. We'll make sure we link to all that in the show notes. Carlos Ally, thank you for coming on. I think what you guys are doing is incredibly cool. Number one, incredibly important. Number two, really leading the way and showing people that this stuff is possible and it could have profound positive effects on preserving certain art forms.
(59:57) In this case, film, um, which is something that I'm passionate about. I I like movies and I would like to see better movies out there. So, the fact that you guys are using Bitcoin in an attempt to fund the directors and artists who are not getting attention from the big studios is really exciting. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Marty. Appreciate it. All right, that's all we got today, Freaks. Peace and love, freaks.
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