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Former Senate advisor Connor Brown says Bitcoin may be the only way to defuse America’s looming debt bomb.
Former Senate Bitcoin advisor Connor Brown argues Bitcoin is the only credible release valve for America’s structural debt crisis and a nonpartisan technological shift akin to the Internet. His work with Senator Cynthia Lummis on the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve (SBR) and Bitcoin Act sought to align U.S. incentives with Bitcoiners, acquiring BTC while protecting self-custody and avoiding Gold-Reserve-Act-style overreach, so the state becomes a user, not a controller. Education is the bottleneck in D.C.: once staffers grasp “Bitcoin ≠ crypto scams,” support grows. Now at the Bitcoin Policy Institute, Brown is scaling that education via a Congressional Fellowship and Satoshi Scholars to get subject-matter experts onto the Hill. He sees Bitcoin as a fiscal, energy, and AI-era coordination tool, stabilizing grids through demand response, fitting programmable digital economies, and offering a long-horizon solution where legacy policy tools fail.
“One of the only ways to truly solve this is you take an outsized bet on an emerging paradigm.”
“The only winning move is to play.”
“Let’s take the lessons from the Gold Reserve Act and build its antithesis.”
“You may not care about politics, but politics cares about you.”
“Bitcoin is literally the only thing that can diffuse this bomb.”
“We need to dramatically increase the Bitcoiner density of Washington, D.C.”
“BPI is the honey badger of D.C.”
Bitcoin offers a pragmatic path to defuse America’s debt bomb while renewing the country’s tradition of bold, asymmetric bets. Brown’s roadmap is simple: educate policymakers, codify protections for self-custody, onboard the U.S. as a neutral market participant (not a network arbiter), and integrate Bitcoin into existing fiscal and energy toolkits. Done right, this alignment can cool political polarization, strengthen national resilience, and position the U.S. to lead in a sound-money digital economy.
0:00 - Intro
0:57 - It’s been a long road
4:27 - Conner’s experience with Sen. Lummis
11:45 - Difficulty of the pitch
15:40- Differentiating from “crypto”
18:11 - Bitkey & SLNT
19:59 - Cypherpunk aversion to govt
24:53 - SBR
32:35 - How to get SBR right
38:07 - Unchained & CrowdHealth
39:21 - Playing the long game
45:22 - AI disruption
50:01 - BitBonds
53:47 - Swaying minds
57:35 - Getting more bitcoiners in DC
1:01:12 - BPI
1:06:53 - Bitcoiner experts
1:12:47 - Hazards
1:20:05 - Is DC a good place?
1:23:50 - Bitcoin can unite politics
1:27:31 - Optimism
(00:00) We have this massive looming financial problems that are on the horizon. One of the only ways to diffuse this bomb is you take an outsized bet on an emerging paradigm in 2019. He had just put out the tweet that said something like, "I don't like Bitcoin. I don't trust it. It's not nearly as good as the dollar.
(00:20) " And to think in just a few short years how far he's come to say, not only is this something that is positive, but it's something that America has to be the leader in. Legislation is within a few months proposed all over the world. What do we do if China acquires 2 million Bitcoin? One of the easiest and most straightforward ways to align the interest of Bitcoiners and the US government is to have the US own some Bitcoin.
(00:38) Let's take the lessons learned from when the government passed the Gold Reserve Act and seized everyone's gold. What does the antithesis of that look like? We also put in the bottom of it a protection for self-custody. While we think it's prudent for America to acquire Bitcoin, that does not mean that you should go and take Bitcoiners Bitcoin.
(00:58) Connor Brown, you got me to wear slacks and penny loafers, put on a nice sweater, button down. Welcome to Washington, Marty. It's good to have you. It's good to be here. Here we're looks maxing. You've got to be looks maxing. That's a key point here in DC. Everyone is focused on appearance whether you like it or not.
(01:16) So, you've got to look the part. You got to play the game a bit. And you did a great job. I got to say, the loafers look great. The socks are good. This is good. Yeah, I did go to a prep school. So yeah, I have it deep ingrained in my in my memory, my DNA now at this point. Yeah, you fit right in.
(01:32) Yeah, I would have never suspected, but it's been six almost six and a half years since you were last on the show. You're on episode 87 in July of 2019. I think we're 600 episodes past that now at this point, which is crazy to think. It's crazy. Freaks, I missed you. It's been good. Um it's it's um it's been a long time. It's crazy to think all these years later, here we are still the same people.
(02:00) Um, man, the world has changed so much, but Bitcoin's still what we're focused on. Yeah, I think that's important. The price when you first came on was $11,500 right around there. We're currently dumping as we speak to uh around $105,000. People are scared. It's funny.
(02:22) It's funny to imagine if um ourselves then could see this and we'd be like, "Oh yeah, we're down. It's down only over 100K now." Yeah. But I mean, thinking of how much has changed since then. Obviously, we've had COVID uh Micro Strategy went on their sort of strategy of putting Bitcoin on uh their corporate treasury. Yeah. Bitcoin has entered the zeitgeist. It is a a brand name in homes around the world.
(02:48) Uh, and just last night we were talking over coffee before we came over here, Donald Trump was on 60 Minutes saying that this is a race, Bitcoin and crypto is a race that that we need to win. And just starting there, how profound do you think that is that we're at this point right now? Well, it's crazy because when we had recorded the podcast back in what, 2019, he had just put out the tweet that said something like, "I don't like Bitcoin. I don't trust it.
(03:17) it's not nearly as good as the dollar. And to think in just a few short years how far he's come to say not only is this something that is positive, but it's something that America has to be the leader in. Um I just I it would be crazy to tell us that you know in the past and be like oh yeah in only just uh let's say 5 years he's going to have completely shifted his view on it and is actually going to be seeing this as a competitive aspect of staying as the world leader in technology.
(03:50) So yeah it is it is good but I don't think that we've necessarily won. I don't think that um our I I I don't think that America is quite there yet. And I think there's still a lot more that we can do to solidify our position.
(04:11) And um I think that is, you know, what we're working on every day here in DC is that we are off to a great start. We've shifted from Bitcoin being seen as sort of a nuisance by both parties. Um, and suddenly more and more people are understanding how important this is, but there's still a lot of education that has to happen. Well, and for anybody listening who may not be aware of you, Connor, and the work that you've been doing, particularly on the hill over the last four, five years, if there's anybody who can say what was just said with confidence, it is you. And I think this is a good opportunity to basically let
(04:46) the audience know what you've been up to. what you were doing under Senator Lumis, uh the work that was going on behind the scenes as it pertains to the strategic Bitcoin reserve and the Bitcoin act. What What have you seen, sir? Yeah. Well, freaks, I've missed you. It's been a long time.
(05:05) I have not uh completely left the Bitcoin scene. I've just been sort of uh you know, working behind the scenes a bit. But yeah, I think uh to sort of go over a quick timeline of where I've been, um I ended up working for Senator Lumis as her Bitcoin adviser and saw a lot firsthand of how Washington thinks about Bitcoin, what the state of Bitcoin policy is.
(05:32) And um I guess what ultimately led me there is I was working in the private sector. Um after a few years after I graduated law school, I worked for a few years at different corporate law firms and I was working at a firm in New York. Um I tried to get them interested in Bitcoin treasury companies back in 2020. Actually, hilariously.
(05:56) uh Michael Sailor had just announced his first Bitcoin acquisition and uh tried to get him to uh pitch Bitcoin to our partnership at the law firm. He came and spoke and uh they didn't take it seriously. So, you know, that was uh maybe a bit too early. Then I worked at another firm here in DC on sort of fintech and blockchain practice and saw firsthand the attacks by the SEC on different companies and I was working on enforcement actions but ultimately I still really cared about Bitcoin and I had been in touch with Senator Lumis' staff for a few years and a spot opened up to be for Bitcoin and
(06:44) AI advisor and I was going back and forth but decided that at the time there were still a lot of attacks on Bitcoin. This was um late 23, early 24 and it seemed very obvious that we needed someone to really defend Bitcoin to bring knowledge to the hill and Senator Lumis was really one of the only people that was talking about this and I decided to go see what it was like and it was just the most fascinating experience of my life.
(07:21) truly it changed um you know what how I view myself and and um how important I see the political system now and it was just a fantastic experience. Um but yeah so that started in 24 and learned a lot through that about how the hill works, how you can take an idea and really with just a good idea you can have incredible amounts of change. So, yeah, it's been a crazy past five years. Well, let's dive into this.
(07:53) How was the sausage made? Like, what was your expectation going in? How was the sausage made? Um, I actually didn't know what to expect going in. So, I had met Senator Lumus one time in passing at a um at just like a conference basically. Um, and I had been told, you know, she's a great Bitcoiner. You've got to meet her.
(08:14) and decided to take the job without really um knowing what to expect. I walk in the first day. I'm walking through the office. I'm seeing Bitcoin signs on some desk. I'm like, "Okay, this is good. This is good." And then I noticed everyone has a copy of gradually then suddenly sitting on their desk and and there were copies of the Bitcoin standard.
(08:37) And then I was like, "Okay, this is real. This is the real deal." um and got to know her and sure enough, you know, we hit it off pretty quickly because she really is a Bitcoiner. She really is, you know, someone who's read all the same things we've read. She's read the same Parker Lewis books and and listen to a lot of the same content.
(09:00) And so, um I didn't know what to expect, but I came into an environment that was just the perfect place for me. Um, and it was also a way for me to start to educate others on the hill about Bitcoin because our office was understanding Bitcoin, but none of the other offices um, you know, they they didn't really understand Bitcoin deeply.
(09:32) So, it was a great opportunity to just go around and start teaching people and and spreading the good word about Bitcoin. Well, what's that process like? What's it like saying, "Hey, we're Yeah. Senator Lumus, her office were the where the Bitcoin Yeah. experts. Is it a lot of outreach or people coming to you? What is that like? Uh, it's very self-driven. So, um, and and a lot of people might not even know this, it's sort of a blackbox how the legislative system works.
(09:56) So, to give you sort of a rough sense of it, um, each office has different functions. So you have the communications team, you have the scheduling team, you have the legislative team and I was part of the legislative team and each office has basically uh let's say between depending on the size of the office, a senate versus house office, between five to 10 people, sometimes more that are working on legislative issues.
(10:28) And each member has uh a staffer who's responsible for let's say financial services or Bitcoin and digital assets. And so my job was to reach out to all of the staffers in the other offices. I was on the legislative team and I was responsible for reaching out and saying, "Hey, you are uh Senator Cruz's staffer, you know, or you're Senator Blackburn staffer. Hey, let's talk about Bitcoin.
(10:55) " um and going out and just figuring out who's interested in this and who cares about it and also explaining to people, you know, Bitcoin touches many policy areas in ways people don't understand or don't anticipate. And so spreading, you know, the the good word about Bitcoin and explaining here's what Bitcoin is, Bitcoin 101 fundamentals, how the network works, why it's trustworthy.
(11:20) Um, you know, it's it's a lot of just self-motivated getting to know people and and teaching them about Bitcoin. And a lot of people are very interested, but you know, they've they've heard a lot about it. It's talked a lot about in politics, but they've never had someone who can really explain it to them in a way that makes sense to them.
(11:40) Um, so it's a lot of meeting people where they're at and just sort of hitting the pavement and knocking on doors. Considering the scope of all the policy decisions that are being made in this city, not only as it pertains to Bitcoin, healthcare, energy, whatever may be, how hard is it to get an individual staffer to focus on something very specific like Bitcoin? It depends on how you pitch it.
(12:02) I mean, I found that people were actually really receptive, surprisingly receptive. I had no clue what it was going to be like going in. Um, how closed off people would be, but the reality is that the hill is a very social place. Um, and everyone is wanting to get to know everyone.
(12:25) And for me, it was sort of like, wow, it's it's rare for someone to come from outside the hill and that really cares about a specific policy issue and to explain why it's important. So, I was surprised at how receptive people were. I mean, you have to be creative, right? So, we had Bitcoin pizza day, we had Bitcoin and bagels, we had all sorts of different, you know, whenever there was just some sort of random event we could come up with that's Bitcoin related, we would do it.
(12:49) Um, but I found that people were actually very receptive. Um, and that that comes down to meeting people where they're at and explaining to them in a way that is palatable to them, but across the political spectrum. Um, it was not a partisan thing, and I don't think that Bitcoin is a partisan thing.
(13:08) um across the aisle, you know, you can think about what Bitcoin represents and what they care about and explain how powerful a tool Bitcoin is. And I think people were actually hungry for that. It was surprising. Um but yeah, it was I think made a lot of very positive inroads to people who otherwise probably would not have thought about this, wouldn't have been on the radar.
(13:25) Well, there's been an obvious evolution and a positive sense in terms of the posturing from DC towards Bitcoin, particularly on the right, but even on the left, you got like Roana, yeah, Richie Torres, and many others who understand that this is something that they should care about and lean into.
(13:49) What in your observation were some of the events or framings of how you were pitching Bitcoin that made people wake up and say, "Hey, this is something we need to care about, focus on." Yeah. I think that focusing on Bitcoin, not in a partisan sense, but just in a broad historical sense, that fundamentally this is a historical event that we've seen play out many times in the past.
(14:13) that Bitcoin, like other monetary paradigm shifts, it simply is better money. It simply is better savings technology. And just like we've seen play out, whether it be the shift from sea shells and calorie beads or salt to precious metals, from silver to gold, that the uptake of Bitcoin is just another technological shift and that we should be thinking about how we can capitalize on that just like America was the home of the internet and all the benefits that brought and talking about it in these broad historical paradigm shift ways rather than it's on this incremental partisan issue going to win points or lose points. I think that is
(14:54) what people were very receptive to and ultimately I think the the concept of Bitcoin's unique circumstances it came out of the financial crisis. Um no one is happy with how the financial crisis was handled.
(15:13) I don't think there's anyone that thought you know what they did a good job that that the system was set up right. I mean, you might have a different story for why it happened or how it was solved, but no one came away from that thinking, yeah, that was a good thing that happened. Um, and so having Bitcoin as something that came out of that environment, and that is something that can be a savings tool for anyone, for the individual, for the corporation, and even for the state, I think is something that people are very receptive to, and they just haven't thought about Bitcoin like that. I think I think a lot of it is um you know there's not even for some people an
(15:46) understanding between Bitcoin and the long tale of uh crypto schemes that we've seen blow up. You know, we've seen they know and are constantly reading articles about different rugps or you know a lot of them knew Sam Bankman freed before FTX fell apart. And so delineating Bitcoin from the unsaavory parts of the crypto ecosystem um is also very important.
(16:18) And once you peel that back, then I think that you can really explain Bitcoin in terms that is, you know, interesting to people. That's been the biggest uphill battle of the last three years specifically post the X blow up is I mean we've made a concerted effort at TFTC and I think many others in the industry to drive that demarcation like there's Bitcoin and then there's crypto and going back to like the scope of what people have to focus on here in the hill.
(16:48) It it can it makes me wonder like how easy or hard is it to make that delineation clear and how many people are just throwing the baby out with the bathwater because they don't understand that you shouldn't conflate FTX blow up with the Bitcoin protocol itself. Yeah, I would say it is easier than you would expect. The people on the hill are people that care about policy. They care about America's future.
(17:08) They care about getting things right. they are often there because they are interested in policy. And so you have someone who is typically much more engaged than your average person. You know, talking to someone about Bitcoin that's just a random friend, they they might just say, you know, h I'm not really sure how much I want to think about this.
(17:27) But the people on the hill genuinely do want to think about what good policy is, what the future looks like. So you have an audience that's interested and then it just becomes a numbers game at the end of the day. Um, there just aren't that many Bitcoiners on the hill truly. And there are so many staff that are responsible for understanding Bitcoin policy and understanding uh what the right and wrong answers are.
(17:58) And so it becomes a numbers game pretty quickly is at the end of the day there's only so many people you can meet with individually. And um so I think that was really the bottleneck um for for the daily was just um how much time you have to explain Bitcoin to people and and meet people where they're at. Sup freaks. This rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey.
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(20:04) Speaking to this lack of, for lack of a better term, Bitcoin talent on the hill that can be here to educate staffers and individual representatives and senators about this. How much do you think that is driven by the historical aversion of the wider Bitcoin community towards government specifically? So, this is something this is something that's very common, I think, and I'm very sympathetic to it.
(20:29) You know, I've read all the cipher punk readings that a lot of us have, right? I've listened to my 10,000 hours of Bitcoin podcast. I think there is a a common thread in the Bitcoin community that is um basically the state exists, but we want to avoid it at all cost. And um I'm very sympathetic to that.
(20:53) I think privacy is extremely important that limiting um the state's power over individuals. These are important uh considerations but I don't think that the solution is let's stop engaging with the state altogether because at the end of the day the state does have a monopoly on violence. The state does have the ability to do all sorts of things to to Bitcoiners here in the US.
(21:18) And um I think that it is on us to engage with the state and explain that Bitcoin is not adverse to its interest um but is actually an important tool that everyone should be using that individuals should be using. I mean, this is just like the internet, right? If um the state perceived the internet as a threat and said, you know what, we're going to crack down on it, freedom of expression in the digital age as a bad thing, then we'd be in a very different country. And it took smart policy makers to recognize
(21:50) the value the internet had. Well, and there was an attack on the internet, right? Then they would have put chips in the back of the computers and make sure we were tracking everybody, but that ultimately got stomped out and the free and open internet was able to thrive. Exactly.
(22:04) I mean, it took smart cipher punks to really make the case that that code is free speech, that encryption is not a weapon, and that it is good for a free and open society to have these technologies. And I think that we are in a similar position with Bitcoin which is we need to take the responsibility on ourselves to educate the state and to explain why like many technologies in America's past that it is on us to embrace this technology first.
(22:38) It is an American technology fundamentally of private property rights of ownership of freedom of expression and transaction and that if we don't really take up the mantle and educate the state then I do worry you know where that could go and I think that that is just a testament to how powerful really working through policy can be in 2024 in early 2024.
(23:03) before there was legislation that had multiple different co-sponsors about really regulating the node layer of the network. There was attempts to have these reports on uh mining energy consumption which could have led to all sorts of different regulations down the line. Um and we've sort of went past that paradigm at least for now of trying to clamp down on Bitcoin.
(23:31) But I don't think it is something that we can take lightly and it's something we have to really be on guard for uh because you know Bitcoin is going to continue to mature but the state is still going to be there. It's still going to exist and um it's important that we navigate that carefully.
(23:52) It's like our good friend Bitstein said the only winning move is to play. Uh and I think this is something we've been having ongoing discussion over the last three days. We had a nice catch-up call on Saturday afternoon in preparation for this and really anchoring this back to the historical aversion of of Bitcoiners who I mean Bitcoin is a sly roundabout way to take control of money out of the hands of the state.
(24:17) It does not but with that being said it does not mean that the state is not going to exist. And I think one thing that's really stuck out to me based off of our conversations since Saturday is incentive alignment and how do we make it so we educate the state, they implement correct policy and then you have sort of an aversion to what has existed for the last five decades which is the state is working in an incentive framework that aligns with citizens broadly across the spectrum because their incentive is to make sure the Bitcoin succeeds too. Totally. And this is the justification
(24:56) behind the SPR. This is why a strategic Bitcoin reserve. This is one of the main reasons which is one of the easiest and most straightforward ways to align the interest of Bitcoiners and the US government is to have the US own some Bitcoin.
(25:22) I mean, that seems like a pretty straightforward way to remove or at least uh start to um you know, have the state on the same terms of of individual Bitcoiners and see Bitcoin as a tool that individuals and states can use. Um so that was that was actually part of it. Um, I know there's a lot of people that love to throw bombs on X and say, "Look, this is a number go up play or something like that.
(25:47) " But the reason that we put that out there, I think, was really because we saw this as an important way to avoid what happened with gold, avoid what happened with the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 and uh sort of what we've seen in in historical terms of whenever there is a new monetary standard and the state finds itself without enough of it, then it just seizes what the private individuals have.
(26:23) And I think that's a very very important historical takeaway is that the the terms change but the incentives are structurally the same. And so we need to recognize that and think about ways to align the interest of America and Bitcoin for the betterment of both Bitcoiners and Americans generally. It is in America's interest to get there first.
(26:49) Um, so that was that was actually I think one of the driving reasons behind it is uh thinking about what it can offer the United States and what it can also do in terms of uh helping Bitcoiners. Can you walk us through the history of the Bitcoin Act, the SPR, and what what was that journey like? Obviously came out of Senator Lumis' office. You were working on the legislative team there, so I'm sure you had your hands uh pretty immersed in in that process.
(27:14) What what has it what was it like up until um you recently left Senator Lumbus' office to join uh the Bitcoin Policy Institute as the head of strategy? We'll get to that, but let's focus on the SPR first. Yeah, the his the history of the SPR. It's um such a privilege to have been sitting in the room.
(27:33) I always wanted to be in the room where it happened and sure enough, I was in the room when it happened. It was crazy. Um, so I guess the the condensed version of the story is is roughly that at the time in 2024, like I said, the sentiment around Bitcoin was very reactive. From a policym perspective, we were trying to think how do we fight off proposed attacks on the Bitcoin network? And we hear um you know through the grapevine essentially that there are some new policy suggestions being made that potentially President Trump um you know then candidate Trump
(28:16) was considering uh strategic reserve and it was funny because sort of separate from that um we had been talking about Bitcoin in our office and Senator Lumus many people don't know this was actually tre treasurer of Wyoming. And during her tenure as treasurer, she diversified Wyoming's balance sheet.
(28:40) So Wyoming has a sovereign wealth fund, one of the only states to have one. And she by diversifying the balance sheet really dramatically improved Wyoming's financial outlook and allowed them to not even have a state income tax because of good financial management. And so that was sort of an idea that we had been kicking around which was uh if Bitcoin can be this potential similar uh scenario for America where Senator Lumis saw firsthand what being smart and forward thinking and finances can do for a state. What does that mean at the national level? And so she said, "Conor,
(29:23) can you look into this? Can you guys think about what this would look like to have a Fort Satoshi? And um at the same time, we hear that President Trump might be considering something similar. Uh but we weren't sure how credible that was and they were looking at it and we knew that he was going to speak at the Bitcoin conference.
(29:51) And so, um, you know, what we were trying to do was think about if this is going to be a policy suggestion and we're Bitcoiners and we understand the principles that are important to the network and how to do this correctly, what does good policy look like on this? Um, you can do it in good ways or bad ways.
(30:17) We wanted to really provide a Bitcoinerforward version of what a Bitcoin reserve could look like if we were to have a parallel of Fort Knox. Um, so it was a wild time and we were super excited leading up to the conference and um, we until the very moment that President Trump went on stage, we weren't sure if he was going to talk about this, support this. Um, and it was just wild being backstage.
(30:50) got escorted in by Secret Service to the front row of the conference. Me and uh people from my team were sitting in the audience, not sure what's going to happen. We know that Cynthia is going to announce the bill right after. And so we're just hoping, fingers crossed, and sure enough, he says that America needs a national Bitcoin stockpile.
(31:14) And we're like, "Oh my gosh, here it is. The moment has arrived." um that we have really hopefully um shifted from a paradigm of seeing Bitcoin as a nuisance to seeing Bitcoin as a tool to something that is a positive for America and Americans to embrace. And then right after that, Senator Lumis goes and announces the bill publicly and we're sitting there in the crowd and um it was just really one of the highlights of my time in the Senate of seeing that moment happened and then seeing the domino effect, seeing states take this up. internet, you know, countries around the world start considering this legislation is within a few months
(32:00) proposed all over the world in these different legislative bodies. Um it was crazy to see in real time the impact of just a good idea and um it was incredible that Senator Lumis was really willing to to go there and say you know what this is what I truly believe and uh you know she was okay with being the first and the only one to say this is a good idea in the beginning.
(32:34) Um, and then you know seeing how that sort of matured over time has been really cool. It's been incredibly cool. I I forget I had Cynthy on the shows during co it had to be 2020 2021 and that was when she first came out publicly as as a Bitcoin senator and was really championing it. And to see how far it's come since then is I I think people take for granted again going back to the the point that we're dumping to $105,000.
(33:01) Um whether it's where price is at any given point in time or where Bitcoin sits in the zeitgeist, I think people get caught up in the day-to-day price movements, headlines, whatever it may be, and really forget to take a step back and appreciate how far we've come both from a market structure, liquidity profile perspective and a policy public perception of Bitcoin perspective. that's changed wildly since you were last on, but you mentioned one thing.
(33:29) You're explaining sort of the story of the SBR and it's that we want to craft a bill that really respects individual rights and is a bill that Bitcoiners would be proud of. And so in your mind, what are a few of the key points that need to be executed to make sure that the SPR is done right? Yeah, great question.
(33:54) Um, it's funny because we got a lot of push back from people saying, is this going to give the government control of Bitcoin? Is this going to um, in some ways create a bad set of incentives? And our goal really was, let's take the lessons learned from when the government passed the Gold Reserve Act and seized everyone's gold. You know, you had the Gold Reserve Act, you had Executive Order 6102.
(34:17) What does the antithesis of that look like? What does getting it right ahead of time look like so that that is never necessary. So that was really at the heart of what we were thinking when we're drafting this of how do we set up the right set of incentives and how do we set up the right set of incentives for Bitcoin the network.
(34:40) Um so you know obviously the first thing is we're looking to acquire Bitcoin. Um, and we also are very cognizant of how do we make sure that while we're using Bitcoin as a tool, you know, we think it's prudent for the US government to use Bitcoin as the savings technology to prepare for the age of Bitcoin that is to come.
(35:05) At the same time, we want to protect the network and ensure that that does not create a perverse set of incentives for network development and that it doesn't allow the US government to put their thumb on the scale. And I've seen a lot of smart Bitcoiners, people that I've listened to on plenty of podcasts, you know, read a bunch of their articles, they're critical of the SPR actually, um, and for various different reasons, but one that I've heard a lot is we don't want the government involved in this. And I understand that conceptually.
(35:35) I understand that from a philosophical point of view. But I do think that the way we drafted it, we really tried to think through how could this create a perverse set of incentives and how do we make sure that doesn't happen. So one example is if America is acquiring a large sum of Bitcoin, then it might not have control over the network development, but it would be a large market participant.
(36:01) And we know that network forks are sometimes based on, you know, how the market perceives one side of the fork or the other. We learned from the block wars. Um, lots of lessons to be learned there, but part of it is people can sort of signal to the market what they believe and what they think the right fork is just by selling one fork and buying the other.
(36:26) Um, or vice versa. And so we wanted to set the incentives in place so that the US government does not get involved in any sort of network discussion. So um that was one of the key provisions is we wanted to hodddle all forks basically say if the network does fork and there are multiple coins that come out of it you can't express an opinion one way or the other.
(36:53) you can't sell one and buy the other um because that would be a way to actually influence the network even if they're not, you know, on GitHub or they're not actually proposing software updates just by expressing a preference could be significant. So, we wanted to cut that off.
(37:13) We also put in the bottom of it um a protection for self-custody and wanted to clarify that while we think it's prudent for America to acquire Bitcoin, that does not mean that you should go and take Bitcoiners Bitcoin. That would be the wrong way to go about this. Um so we wanted to put that protection in there as well. Um and then we also had some transparency um requirements that uh I think are very important.
(37:40) We've seen that the gold in Fort Knox is notoriously difficult to audit. Um the last I heard is that Elon Musk said we need to audit it and then crickets. It's been nine months and nothing's happened. Don't know where that went. Um someone should look into that. But yeah, so that is um that's ultimately where we landed is we wanted to put in strong protections uh so that the US government can be onboarded as a user but it does not impact the network operations.
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(39:19) You're going to get $99 a month for the first three months if you use the code TFTC. join crowdhealth.comtfc. And let's let's go further into the importance of not only doing this but getting it right. and we were just having coffee and discussing the concept of of Bitcoin helping to manufacture the soft landing that was a big meme in 2022, 2023, 2024 as the Fed was unwinding its accommodative policy postcoid and beginning to tighten and Janet Yellen was pounding the the front end of the yield curve.
(39:53) I think knowing you and knowing many other Bitcoiners and how they think, it seems like the government with the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve working together or independently, it doesn't really matter um independent of each other. you're not going to fix the structural issue issues that uh that exist in the monetary and financial system depending on the same tools uh policy tools specifically that got us into the problem in the first place.
(40:24) And I think really framing Bitcoin as a free market solution and tool that could be used to actually manufacture a soft landing over a multi-deade time horizon. That's another thing I think we really need to hammer from the Bitcoin perspective when we're interfacing with Capitol Hill is like, hey, this isn't a quick fix solution.
(40:47) We need to begin uh strategically, methodically, and intentionally implementing Bitcoin into what we do at the national level as well as at the individual um and business level. Uh but it's going to take some time. And so really framing Bitcoin as this tool that could be used to set up the United States both at the government level, the business layer, and the individual layer to succeed as we continue to transition into the digital age. Yeah, I think that's where we're at at a national level.
(41:17) And this has been another criticism of the concept of a Bitcoin reserve, which is, oh, we're going to revalue our gold and we're going to use that revaluation to acquire more Bitcoin. Is that aligned with the Bitcoin ethos of limited government, of taking the power of money printing away from the state? Um, I think fundamentally the situation is such that drastic times call for drastic measures, right? and every smart person that that I know that I respect in their forecast, whether it be Lyn Alden who's saying nothing stops this train, whether it be
(41:54) Ray Dallio who's saying we're at the end of a long-term debt cycle. Um, there's plenty of different analysts that are all saying the same thing. And it's the same thing that I saw working on the hill which is we are locked into a structural set of problems that we will not be able to diffuse using standard measures.
(42:19) Right now the incentives are such that given the time horizon of members they're on short cycles and these problems of increasing spending are on very long time horizons that we need to think outside the box on what is a really radical solution to this and I think there's been lots of great modeling that shows one of the only ways to diffuse this bomb One of the only ways to truly solve this is you take an outsized bet on an emerging paradigm.
(42:57) Right? This is a tale that America has seen over and over with either the Louisiana purchase or the acquisition of California or the acquisition of Alaska. And this is a time uh a tale as old as time that America is the type of country that sees the future before it happens. recognizes resources that will be important and gets a huge windfall off of them. And the reality is that our finances, our structural set of incentives have us in a bad position, a really bad position.
(43:32) And there is not an obvious solution except for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is literally the only thing that I can think of uh that can diffuse this bomb. Now, maybe artificial intelligence will have an impact. Unclear, but Bitcoin is I'm I believe through just the economic physics of it going to continue to out compete other stores of value, other capital assets, and will obsolete many other types of money.
(44:01) And in that process, it will become this new global store of value. And one way America can get out of this is by getting there first. And so I think that that is uh the decision that we ultimately landed on is we can't just do nothing. If we do nothing and we just hope that someone down the line is going to fix it, then the problem is going to continue to compound and no one is going to actually have a solution.
(44:34) Um, and this is this is, you know, something that's been talked about a lot, but I think that that's an important part of the Bitcoin conversation is we need to do it sooner rather than later. Um, when we proposed the Bitcoin reserve, the price was what, $50,000. So, it's gotten twice as expensive in a couple of months. Um, so time is of the essence here. Um, and I think it's it's really uh the only option we have on the table um is to recognize this and think about how we start incorporating it as a release valve for a lot of the problems and mismanagement that both sides of the aisle, you know, this is this is not a
(45:12) partisan thing. This is um mismanagement that has happened um just structurally since 1971, right? Yeah, and it's as an American too, it would be incredibly encouraging, especially as we approach the 250th birthday of this great nation if we were to act bold, think out of the box, be creative, really reinvigorate that American spirit that I still truly believe lives in the the bellies of many individual Americans out there, myself included. Let's act bold. Let's do it.
(45:43) You mentioned AI. Maybe we get this productivity explosion that really helps us figure out things economically, but then you're going to have some job issues if that does manifest. You have to deal with those with money printing. But even if you believe that AI is the Hail Mary, considering the energy part of that equation, Bitcoin has to play a part because you're going to need to expand generation.
(46:08) The AI data centers need constant consumption of the electricity that's being produced and you're going to need some demand response there. And I believe we're be beginning to see this uh become recognized actually particularly from this administration. Chris Wright, I think he's talked about this. FK came out with uh I believe a bulletin a couple of weeks ago really leaning into demand response and loosely alluding to the fact that Bitcoin miners have a role to play here.
(46:36) Um and I think that's just bringing this back to the debt situation. Nothing stops the strain. structural issues that exist. This is something that should invigorate and I would hope engender a lot of optimism on the hill. I was like, "Oh, we've been talking about the whether social security, the debt issue, um the bailouts of the banks, whatever it may be, my whole life, and there really hasn't been many solutions other than feigning um or wanting to balance the budget, which is never going to happen just due to the structural issues to raise the social security uh retirement age limit." like
(47:14) it's all been sort of dinks and dunks trying to uh minutely change different inputs into a function that is not working and here you have this external variable that can enter the equation and really add some positive momentum towards a solution. Yeah, I think that it will definitely be a forcing function for change in terms of how AI interacts with the structural fiscal problems we have. Still unclear.
(47:46) You know, the vast majority of our mandatory spending comes from payroll taxes. You know, a lot of money that comes from social security is ultimately paid into by uh how many people are employed. And if there is some sort of job displacement, that could actually speed up some of the timelines here. Um I think there will be massive productivity gains, but hard to know how that plays into it.
(48:09) Um, and if that moves the timeline up uh for how quickly some of these longerterm ticking time bombs have to go, um, does that mean that corporate real estate will will be impacted more because more sort of digital workers are working? Does that mean less people are paying into the payroll system and that means social security, you know, goes bust sooner rather than later? Just this year they moved up the timeline on when they expect that social security will start to run out which uh got moved up by a year and uh it's already less than 10 years away right so really hard to know
(48:45) what the impact will be I do think that bitcoin will be a part of it uh part of the AI sort of revolution however you want to frame it which is digitally native agents digitally native economics is going to look to digital money and they're obviously going to want something that's like Bitcoin, right? They're going to want something that's programmable, something that they can transact in freely, instrument.
(49:10) It's a better It's a bearer instrument. Um, you know, Nick Zabo talks a lot about the mental transaction cost that Bitcoin might be programmable. We might be able to send millions of transactions per minute over the Lightning Network, but you and I mentally, we don't have that capacity, right? um paying 10 cents for a piece of data or something is just it has its own mental costs that are separate from the cost of the transaction. AIS do not have that problem. They can make a million transactions per second for a million
(49:43) years and not think twice about it, right? Um, so that's a really interesting, you know, thought to to imagine an economy where the mental transaction cost part of it um are no longer there and we're going to see something like Bitcoin become a lot more attractive in that scenario too. Yeah.
(50:05) And so shifting toward I mean we been really discussing solutionsoriented things but getting more granular with it in terms of acquiring the Bitcoin. One of the proposals that came out of the Bitcoin policy institute earlier this year was the idea of bit bonds. And this is something that I I think is a good way to do it.
(50:26) There are many people who say bit bonds won't work. Why would you buy a bit bond where you can just buy bitcoin? Like why would you leave uh potential upside returns on the table and feed the government uh monies so that they can expand their debt? But as we were discussing over coffee, I mean, we're beginning to see products like a bit bond emerge in the private sector, particularly via micro strategy and its preferred offerings that really give me the confidence that that bit bonds could be a solution and a way to accumulate a strategic reserve at the federal level. Yeah, I think that this is something
(51:02) that we're going to see mature over time certainly, but the innovation always starts in the private sector, right? And we are seeing the emergence of these digital credit instruments. We're seeing the emergence of build building out what the risk curve looks like when you have Bitcoin as the driving monetary asset and then you're layering financial products on top of that.
(51:30) And strategy, I think, is doing a fantastic job of illustrating that once you realize Bitcoin is this monetary asset at the base of it, that you can build all of these really interesting products on top of that. And the US government is in a very similar economic position, right? They have all of this credit that they they have all this debt that they have to offer to the public, right? So they are looking for how do they keep interest rates down? How do we sell these large offerings to the public and finance our deficits? And I think that the private sector is demonstrating that by blending Bitcoin into existing instruments, you can actually create
(52:10) novel products that benefit both the borrower and the uh the purchaser, right? Because uh ultimately you're able to offer a better product to the market. And I don't know exactly what the terms of those instruments could look like. Um, but I think that Bitbond's proposal is one example of saying, look, if you were to blend Bitcoin into a standard treasury offering, then you could have the purchaser become interested by this Bitcoin upside and they're able to offer the borrower much better terms because they're more interested in this upside, right? And so
(52:55) you can sort of align the interest of both the borrower um and the purchaser through Bitcoin. And I think that that is an example of of how the US government should be thinking. Um, it's great that we're tweeting about Bitcoin, tweeting about the resilience of the network, but where we're at now is we need to think creatively about how do we align and how do we put Bitcoin into these existing tools that we have and build that into the toolbox and sort of take some of those private sector innovations and think about it at a
(53:31) federal level. I think that is something that would be a very very worthwhile endeavor. It's, you know, part of what we're working on at Bitcoin Policy Institute is helping those in government think through how do you blend Bitcoin in to your tool set? All right, let's steal man this. Considering the polarized nature of politics in the United States right now, how practical is it to get any of this implemented, do you think? Well, I think that goes back to um the educational piece.
(54:04) So, I guess it probably would be best to like keep going through the history of the SBR, right? Because it's a great case of showing how you can start to build momentum for a concept. So, we put it out there in 24. Um, and there were no co-sponsors. There was no house companion. There was no one that wanted to get on board with this idea.
(54:27) And, uh, it was really just us saying, "Hey, we think this is important." And over that period of time, Senator Lumis is talking to her colleagues right on the staff level. I'm meeting with people, explaining Bitcoin to them, explaining why Bitcoin is going to be this important savings technology. And over the course of six, seven months, we roll around to 2025 to the new Congress.
(54:54) And by just talking to people and meeting with them several times, getting them familiar with the concept of Bitcoin and what we're proposing, then we were able to in just 6 months reintroduce the bill in the new Congress. And this time we had five additional co-sponsors, a House Companion, and the House Companion had additional co-sponsors.
(55:18) And so it just kind of goes to show what the impact of education can have. So, I think that where we're at now is is something like um the SBR politically palatable palatable enough to happen tomorrow? No, it's it's not there. But I think that there's a very clear proof of concept that as Bitcoin continues to gain momentum, as institutional credibility continues to build, as people keep learning about it, and as Bitcoiners continue to show up to DC and talk about it and explain how important this is for our future, for our children's future, then there is a very clear path to
(56:00) victory there in my opinion. Well, on that note, in your mind, what's a reasonable timeline to expect an SBR to to pass? So, I think um you know, this was another sort of criticism that came about, right, which was people said, well, this is never going to happen. Um it's never going to be politically palatable. And I think that those criticisms were probably accurate.
(56:25) you know, um it it is sort of a a way to plant a flag in the ground to say, "Look, this is where we think good policy is, but realistically it's it's not there politically." But I do think that it is a way of getting the idea out there. And I would hope that in 2026 we could see something like um a codification of the reserve. Um a bill that really tries to start thinking through and mandating that the administration come up with a plan, start mapping out the game theory, start planning contingency scenarios of what do we do if China acquires 2 million Bitcoin? What do we do if we are caught
(57:11) off guard? Right? We don't have any break glass plans right now. We don't have the right people that are coming up with strategic plans thinking about this. So my hope is that in 2026, and I think there probably is political will for this, is that we start formalizing things and that we start getting our plan together.
(57:36) Um, so I think and I think that, you know, the more Bitcoiners that come to the hill, the more people that are interested in this and want to work on this, um, the faster it'll happen. I was telling you over coffee, I came here in 2009. It was the first time I came or second time I came for a field trip when I was younger.
(57:56) 2009, was 18 and I hadn't been back to the hill till earlier this year when you guys had the the BPI event and I've been here three times since. just this year. Yeah, I've been here four times. It's important. We need to dramatically increase the Bitcoiner density of Washington DC. Um I I think it is very very important that if we want to be on the good timeline where Bitcoin wins and America wins, then that's going to mean a lot of Bitcoiners have to come to DC and do the rounds and talk and educate and make the pitch and explain how important this technology is. I completely agree that homesteading is
(58:34) awesome and it would be great to be on a ranch in Montana somewhere and not have to think about any of this. Um, but I I do think that there is a lot of merit in actually coming and engaging. And uh the stakes are too high. Truly, we've got to get this right. And um if we just completely opt out of the political system, power still exists.
(59:01) And if and if we are not engaging with that then you know we don't want that power used um against Bitcoin or against us right um so I do think it is important to to work and understand how the system operates you may not care about politics but politics cares about you this is where we look into the camera this is yeah it's so true um you have to play the game I really think because other people are always playing the game Right. Well, that's the point I want to bring up.
(59:32) It's very clear that the broader crypto industry is certainly playing the game and they have significant financial backing and I think that's it hasn't really been disconcerting or disheartening, but it's you're outside looking in to DC and you're seeing the crypto lobby really taking space.
(59:53) And when you had the sort of crypto brief press conference, you had um to be uh to not come off as uncoth. people who I don't think were putting the best foot forward for Bitcoin, but maybe they have um some personal interest with the projects that they're involved with really getting the ear of this administration and many people on the hill.
(1:00:16) It's because I think if we're being objective, the crypto industry's definitely been better at recognizing like, hey, we need to put resources and capital behind lobbying and policy discussions on the hill where as Bitcoin until the Bitcoin policy institute really emerged was was lacking in that department. Yeah, I think it is a demonstration that the political system is open to people coming in and engaging with it and um you know they've been able to get a lot of wins. We got the Genius Act passed.
(1:00:47) Um they're working on market structure now. It demonstrates proof of concept again that with time and resources and patience and just willingness to engage that you can actually get wins um for yourself, for your industry um out of the political process, but it takes a lot of time and effort and that is what we're trying to do at BPI.
(1:01:12) And I guess like that might be a natural segue to sort of uh explain why I ended up leaving the Senate. Um, so after working in the Senate for two years, it sort of became apparent to me that these outside groups are very effective at getting things done and that um, as a single staffer, there's only so much impact you can have.
(1:01:38) uh because it's sort of, you know, this idealistic one guy versus the government, you know, one guy trying to explain Bitcoin to the entire federal government. Um uh so, you know, that was the the reason I decided to make the change was uh we need a real organization, real heft, and Bitcoin Policy Institute was the one that um you know has been aligned and principles driven and sort of Right.
(1:02:08) From a forecasting perspective, for my for my view, with that in mind, you guys from my perspective have really outpunched your weight class in terms of what BPI has been able to get done. Shout out to David Grant, Matthew Pines, who uh is the position that you're sliding into and everybody else, Zach, uh both Zack, Zack Shapiro, Zack Cohen, and many others. Yep.
(1:02:41) at BPI considering how small and it's a bit punk rock you guys have have made a big impact but now with you at the helm of strategy what do we need to do from here on out or what does BPI need to do yeah I I I have the same view which was uh BPI is basically the honey badger of DC you know I said this I think about this all the time which is that Bitcoin is the superpower right? That we might not have the resources or the organizational size that a lot of the traditional securities groups have or banking groups have. Um, you know, there's all sorts of major major um
(1:03:20) organizations here in DC, but BPI is uniquely positioned to be this sort of underdog that does punch well above its weight class because Bitcoin is such a powerful idea. and that we know what's going to happen. And the more you talk about it, the more you're proven right. So, we have um an immense amount of credibility that's gained by just explaining Bitcoin patiently and then being proven right as the tides continue to shift, as Bitcoin continues to mature, as it continues to itself punch above its weight class. um that is a
(1:04:00) superpower for BPI is that we can sort of see the future and explain it before it happens. Um so ultimately the reason I decided to join was I was just really impressed. Um I met David by sort of accident. I was looking I was trying to do an educational event for Hill staff and I thought a good event could be let's explain Bitcoin versus CBDC's and just sort of have one side explain Bitcoin and one side explain CBDC's and what they're trying to get at.
(1:04:37) Um and David got recommended to me as someone to explain the Bitcoin side. So, um don't know what to expect. I meet him and it turns out he's actually uh a very similar background to mine. We were both debaters in high school and uh in the really crazy small world had the same debate coach.
(1:05:01) He coached me at Wake Forest when I was in college and then he went to Alabama and coached David for high school. So, we had this like crazy crazy small world moment and that became the beginning of a great friendship and um I was consistently just impressed by uh how serious they were that they understood the stakes. They had a very similar view that Bitcoin is important that the ideals behind the network are so important.
(1:05:27) Uh the promise of a free and open monetary system is just critical. Uh but in order to achieve that we have to make sure that smart aligned policy makers have tools at their disposal. They're educated. They understand the issues and um you know that was ultimately why I decided that BPI was sort of the right place to go.
(1:05:51) Um they had the the depth of bench and the same outlook that I think is exactly what we need in Bitcoin right now is that we're sort of going to the next phase. We're going to the next phase. We're going to the phase where Bitcoin really is seen as a world asset and it's much more serious. We are not just a joke on the internet anymore. We mean serious business.
(1:06:15) And that means that we have to be prepared for serious uh threats and have to be able to professionalize and explain Bitcoin to the most important people in the world and explain it to them in a way that they can understand it um easily because you know everyone's very busy as well. So you've got to be quick and concise. Um, but that's sort of where we landed is that BPI is really the the only organization positioned to set America up for success and guide America through the rise of Bitcoin. Well, moving forward, what does that look like mechanically? Yeah. Well, mechanically, um, this is
(1:06:59) something that we're actively trying to figure out, right? is uh how can we take sort of what we've learned from working uh around the hill? I was on the hill for two years. Um how can we take those lessons and think about what are the major asymmetric uh moves we can make to have a big impact? Um I think huge lesson learned in just having people on the hill, right? So Senator Lumus is a Bitcoiner.
(1:07:31) I was a Bitcoiner. There's like a handful of other people on the hill that were interested in Bitcoin. And just those handful of people were able to have a major, I would say, paradigm shifting win from thinking about Bitcoin defensively to thinking about it offensively, right? To seeing it as a good for America.
(1:07:58) Um so with that, one of the first things that we're doing is a congressional fellowship program and um BPI will be able to fund subject matter expert Bitcoiners to go and work on Capitol Hill. So our first cohort will be in January. It'll be small um as we're just getting started, but um it's been crazy actually.
(1:08:24) I've just put out like a few tweets about it and my inbox is just flooded with super smart talented Bitcoiners. They're working all over the country in different different jobs working in sales or marketing or you know on Wall Street or you know some of them are developers. I think it's really important that we get them here on the hill and they can help explain what Bitcoin is, how it works, what good and bad policy looks like. We just need subject matter experts here.
(1:08:48) Um so that's one thing. Um another thing is it is very common for senior staff to go through more rigorous explainers on policy. Um the key thing is there are committee staff that are responsible for determining a specific policy area and those committee staff have a lot of say in what Congress takes up and how issues are resolved. And so one of the other programs that we're going to be starting is a Satoshi scholars program.
(1:09:24) Um this is basically a program that will educate senior members of committees um senior staff on committees on the basics of Bitcoin and basically be like an eight-week crash course um to really get people up to speed because you can't learn Bitcoin in a 30 minute or even an hourong setting.
(1:09:44) You know, you really took it deeply. It needs to be a multi-week session and we want to really provide the resources um to help the staff that want to learn but just haven't made the time for it um to really make it easy and accessible for them. Well, you mentioned you had a flood of of people reaching out after you announced it originally, but in your mind, what is the archetype archetypal individual for this position? The archetypal Well, okay. Well, um, good question.
(1:10:16) Honestly, they come in many shapes and sizes. Like, I've I've There's lots of different types of Bitcoiners. Uh, there's people that are much more um on the developer side, right? They have spent time working on different Bitcoin related projects.
(1:10:36) They might have even made some submissions trying to work on core or something related. Maybe they've worked on wallet software. Um, or it could be someone who's not as technical like myself. I've never programmed, but I've done my 10,000 hours of Bitcoin podcast like everyone else, right? I've been um in the trenches on X. I've been reading what all the plebs have to say.
(1:10:55) You know, you can get a a really good understanding of Bitcoin even without the technical side. Um so I I think you know there is no like one true uh perfect fit for this, but you know there are certain things that we look for, right? Um, you know, one of my favorite interview questions is, can you explain the difference between um what a node does and what a Bitcoin miner does? That's a that's a pretty straightforward answer.
(1:11:26) I think that probably there might be like three or four people in all of Capitol Hill that could answer that question like realistically. Um, and it's a relatively simple question. So, you know, that's the type of thing we're looking for is like, do you understand what the network does, how it operates, why it's important, um, and there's a lot of different people that do.
(1:11:51) So, yeah, if you're out there and you're interested, we need you on the hill. I never thought I'd be saying stuff like this. Yeah. When we were recording in my in my apartment in Brooklyn 6 years ago, if you would have told me we'd be sitting in DC at the Rumble Studios talking about how we're going to affect Bitcoin related policy, I would have said you're nuts. Yeah.
(1:12:10) Even the concept of Bitcoin related policy was like there is there Bitcoin related policy? I don't know. Um but it is true. If you're out there freaks, we need more freaks in DC. We need more Bitcoiners here. Uh please come out. We're a great community here. We're opening up.
(1:12:29) There's, you know, the new Pub Pub DC is going to be opening up. Um, so we're going to have a Bitcoin embassy and, um, I do think it's very important to get involved and, uh, you know, to to sort of help DC see the beautiful orange light at the end of the tunnel. Um, yeah, we've been talking a lot about how we get this right. in your mind, how how does the US government get this wrong moving forward? Like what sort of foot guns are there on the horizon that that the government could wander into? Yeah, getting it wrong.
(1:13:05) Um, you know, Bitcoin is inevitably going to win in my mind that just by its nature, it will continue to out compete. Um, how quickly that happens, the exact path it takes, hard to say. But I think just by its nature, it's it's simply better money, right? So I think that uh getting it wrong would look like what other jurisdictions are reading or are are considering, right? Um something like an unrealized gains tax on Bitcoin or something where you are being adverse to Bitcoiners. Um at the end of the day, Bitcoiners are
(1:13:44) smart. They understand world events. They understand where they fit into things. they are very mobile, right? Um, capital flight is a major risk and that if you're not passing pro Bitcoin policy, if you're not treating uh Bitcoiners well, I do think there's a risk that they just up and leave to Dubai or, you know, somewhere else in the Middle East or a friendlier jurisdiction.
(1:14:12) Um so that is that would be my my uh my worst case is just that uh people don't appreciate that Bitcoin is inevitable and they think that it is just something that you can sort of brush off and um you know we sort of accidentally make already a bad financial situation just that much worse as large portions of your capital base decide you know what we're going to just go to another jurisdiction that that would be worst case.
(1:14:49) Um I also think there is risk in um trying to you know anything on the network side um trying to restrict um you know uh mining or trying to see energy as a zero someum game. I mean this goes back to what you were saying about AI right? If we don't understand Bitcoin as a buyer of last resort for energy and instead see it as a zero- sum game where um if the Bitcoiners are using energy then someone else is not then I think that's also going to be bad. It will make our energy systems more fragile. It will prevent us from having the most cost competitive
(1:15:27) probably AI systems. I there's a lot of secondary u consequences of that too. So, I mean, this is what we're constantly looking out for at at BPI is um making sure we're passing good probit Bitcoin policy and making the the right decisions, but also it's a game of defense, too.
(1:15:50) uh you can't lose sight of the fact that people that are adverse to Bitcoin are trying to think about, you know, how they want to uh I don't know if they even want to harm the network, but you know, there there could easily be something that slips in where they think they're doing something good for let's say elicit finance, right? And um they sort of accidentally as collateral damage hurt the network.
(1:16:13) Um, so that's something that we're thinking about too. Yeah. I think recently there was a memo or bulletin from the Treasury Department that a lot of people looked at, a lot of Bitcoiners looked at like, whoa, what is this? It was I think it was based out of the crypto brief which said we need to expand the Patriot Act to include this six condition that incorporates uh digital assets uh tokens or whatever they're being referred to these days.
(1:16:44) And from what I can tell, it was just some staffer or at at Treasury or somebody put out guidelines like, "Hey, maybe this is what we should do." And it was like, "Uh, you can't use collaborative transactions, coin joins, uh, if you're using multiple addresses, we're going to assume you're doing something nefarious.
(1:17:09) " And many things about wallet software particularly and any Bitcoiner it's been in Bitcoin for long enough and actually uses it uh and does UTXO management. It's like hey these are best practices to preserve privacy uh and security of your private keys over long term. You don't want to be reusing addresses.
(1:17:26) And the reason I bring this up is because I think there was some push back and many people I've got some text from people on the hill like don't worry we'll make sure we get this right. It's when you notice that bad policy is potentially going to get incorporated into something, whether that's guidelines from a department in the federal government or into a bill itself.
(1:17:44) If you speak up, I think we've seen this pretty consistently over the last few years, the Hill will react. So true. So true. This is um another question that I ask when we're interviewing for the Congressional Fellowship. What is a UTXO? You know, it's a relatively simple concept. Um, a lot of people aren't quite clear on it, but I think that goes to a perfect example, right? That as Bitcoiners, we understand UTXO management. We understand how the network operates.
(1:18:12) And that a lot of the things that can by some people be seen as nefarious activity are actually just proper management of block space or actually just proper management of your UTXOs. And having people that are technically inclined that can explain that clearly of exactly why that is necessary, why it is not evidence that you're a criminal or that it is uh some some reason to think this person's guilty, but it's actually just proper hygiene for maintaining your coins um and uh and using the blockchain in a thoughtful way. That is a discussion that is just
(1:18:52) non-existent. Non-existent on the hill and so important that someone is getting that right because um it goes to the difference between at face value I totally understand why someone who's concerned about illicit finance or national security.
(1:19:14) I understand why they might think um you know using multiple addresses they haven't done the 10,000 hours of Bitcoin podcast. They're not in the weeds like we are. And so they can plausibly, you know, come up with an argument for why that's true. And it's important that we have smart Bitcoiners that say, "No, no, no. That's not what's happening there.
(1:19:32) " And you can basically refute the FUD with basic understanding of the network. And what I found is coming through and providing that subject matter expertise, people are extremely receptive to that. It's just they're not getting the other side. They're not. And um that's why it's important to engage. It's important to be here because they're not listening to the plebs on Twitter.
(1:19:52) I love the plebs on Twitter. Um they're great. They're important, but um you know, at the end of the day, you have to come and and speak the language and be there in person and explain it to them. And I think there's just a lot of dividends there. Yeah. To further sort of massage the pitch that you're giving to to Bitcoiners to come work to see what's good about the city.
(1:20:14) Is there good food? Great, good night life. What's going on? Why come to DC? Why come to the city? It seems like they're cleaning it up. It's getting very clean. It's getting veryospitable. Um there's great food. There will be really good food at Pub Key. Again, just to plug that, but um I think it's a beautiful city. It's one of America's great cities, truly.
(1:20:36) Um the architecture here, top-notch, great museums. Um, I think that we've really lost beautiful architecture and DC is one of the few places that has it. It's very walkable. It's got a great layout. Um, the metro systems I mean it quality of lifewise it's tough to beat. Um, I think that architecture is actually this is something else I another rabbit hole I went down um since we last spoke, but I I had a big architecture phase. Um, and uh I think we all do once you find Bitcoin.
(1:21:07) like, "Oh, yeah, it messed up architecture." Yeah, fiat architecture. This is terrible. Right. So, um DC does not have fiat architecture for the most part. It's got a lot of really good stuff. Um and that has a real impact on like your psychology and like your your lived environment really impacts like how you think and how you, you know, behave.
(1:21:32) Um like I think you know, uh Chuck Marone, like Strong Town. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um so DC is great for that. It's actually got very wide sidewalks. The buildings aren't very tall, so you don't feel like they're towering over you. Lots of sunlight. Um, it's a it's overlooked. I think you hear a lot about Austin. You hear a lot about Miami. DC sort of slept on.
(1:21:52) Yep. So, it's Philadelphia. Came from Philadelphia. Had beautiful train experiences today. 30th Street Station in P in Philly. Beautiful. They have this incredible um statue in memorance of uh World War II uh veterans who passed. Michael the Arch Angel picking somebody up.
(1:22:17) I forget it's World War II veterans or people built the train tracks, whatever it may be. Beautiful, all inspiring building. And then you get here at Union Station, similarly statues all over the place. Beautiful environment. I walked here to Rumble Studio from from Union Station. Beautiful walk. Yeah, Union Station. Great building. Another one of those, you know, classically inspired, inspired by Roman architecture.
(1:22:37) It's inspired by some of the baths over um in ancient Rome. And uh just absolutely gorgeous. And uh we need to look this is why we have to win. Okay, freaks. Look, this is why we have to win, okay? Because we need to go back to building beautiful things. We need to go back to a sound monetary system where we can have beautiful architecture.
(1:23:03) Uh where we have beautiful art where um I you know I'm a huge believer in all of this. DC is sort of sometimes I feel like when I'm walking around DC it's like I'm walking through the ruins of like an old civilization. you know, they have these great paintings um some great like pastoral landscapes of uh you know, a farmer like leading some cattle through the uh the Roman forum and you can see like uh these great arches and stuff like poking out of the tops of the dirt and uh it just has such this such an interesting feel of like ah there was once a great civilization here. Um that's how I feel walking around DC.
(1:23:41) It's like, oh, we used to be able to do awesome stuff. Like, we used to have these great, beautiful buildings and and um you know, we need to bring that back. Well, it's funny. We're sort of flippantly going through this subject, but I think it highlights something very important, which is that there is still this disconnect that people do not realize that the monetary system affects all this.
(1:24:06) And like part of our job as Bitcoiners, more importantly, part of your job at BPI, is to really get this message to people on the hill and really paint a broad brush, particularly over the political spectrum. We were talking about this over coffee, like if you're if we're being objective about the state of politics in the United States right now, hyperpolarized.
(1:24:27) And I was telling I was just on what Bitcoin did with American Huddle, Eric Kase, and a lot of the conversation was it looks like the two paths that are predominantly being talked about in the United States right now are like hardcore socialism from the left and strong man, for lack of a better term, fascism on the right.
(1:24:46) Not saying that Trump is a fascist or anything, but that's at least the framing that people have accepted as the two pass. And I think what we're doing with Bitcoin and really highlighting like, hey, we acknowledge that these problems exist for everybody across the spectrum and people on both ends of the spectrum on on the polar ends of the spectrum have very radical ways of doing this.
(1:25:12) And if we can just focus in on the money being broken, having an effect across the spectrum, and work on and focus on fixing that, there is a sort of happier middle path that can appease everybody. Yeah, it's something that concerns me a lot. I mean, right now we're in a government shutdown.
(1:25:33) Uh, this will probably be one of the longest in history and I think that we are still at the early stages of what's to come, right? Uh, you know, no one can predict the future, but we do know structurally we have this massive looming uh financial problems that are on the horizon. We know that social security is going to run out. We know that um Medicare is going to run out. Um we know we're going to have these problems.
(1:25:58) And I do think that as the fiscal picture gets less bleak, as the sort of inequality picture gets worse, as affordability gets worse, as inflation continues to sort of slowly eat away at people's finances, they are increasingly turning to more uh radical political positions.
(1:26:24) And um I do think that Bitcoin is like I said the one thing that can sort of you can you can give it to them and be like look we can diffuse the bomb. Okay, you don't have to go down this path. We could just adopt a new monetary standard in a very peaceful manner. We can just be the first to embrace a new technology, get a huge windfall off of that, position ourselves well and hopefully we don't have to tear each other apart.
(1:26:49) I mean that is maybe I'm being naive or too optimistic but I think we have to try uh because I don't you know both sides are are are looking at the same thing. They're saying the system doesn't work for me. It's unaffordable. I'm getting nothing out of this and um what what is for them is is you know one side or the other going to be a more radical solution.
(1:27:16) and that's where they're going to gravitate unless uh we do something. So yeah, I think it ultimately is like on like I think that we are responsible in some ways of of being able to be the sane people in the room to say look there's a third path. Are you optimistic? I think you have to be. Mhm. I think you have to be um I am optimistic that uh there is a good chance that we like change the timeline, right? Um and you know any risk of fixing the timeline is better than just resigning yourselves to it's just going to get worse.
(1:28:00) Um, so I I would say if I had thought about it before I went to the Senate, I was much more pessimistic. You know, I was wanting to go and learn how it worked. Um, but it seemed like this overwhelming behemoth, you know, the federal government with millions of employees and all these people. Um, I do think the white pill in all of it was you can actually have a much bigger impact than you expect because the vast majority of people just don't know what they don't know. And maybe I'm repeating myself, but I do think that uh there is a lot
(1:28:36) like if you are self-motivated, there is a lot of benefits to just agency going out and doing stuff. you can just do things and um so I don't know maybe I'm just I am just sort of a relentless optimist I will say that is just kind of in my nature is I'm not someone who gets down but um I see a pretty clear path to victory we just have to have the resources and the people to make it happen. Yeah, that's your call to action freaks.
(1:29:09) This has been an incredible catch-up. It's been six years but maybe that was the perfect amount of time between the first episode in this conversation. A lot has happened. You've got some uh some war stories to tell on the show. Some real war stories. Yeah, we'll catch up again in six years. How about that? I'll see you in uh 2031.
(1:29:27) Um no, but uh it's been long overdue. I've listened in routinely. I haven't I haven't um tuned out, but yeah, I was just, you know, undercover for a bit there. But, you know, we want to, you know, now that I'm at BPI, much more public, um, you know, want to be really talking a lot about the things we're doing, how we're seeing things on on the hill, and, um, and the executive and, um, you know, what we think the opportunities are. Yeah. Well, thank you for your service.
(1:30:01) I I mean that earnestly. Um, not only to this country, but as a Bitcoiner. I think there are many Bitcoiners out there who have sort of come to the space uh since you went behind the scenes and were completely unaware of who you were, the impact that you were having behind the scenes.
(1:30:19) And uh I just want to say I'm proud uh having known you for almost 10 years now. Seeing what you did um while you were uh working for Senator Lumis and what you're doing now with BPI, I think it's very important work and work if I'm being honest with myself that I thought was uh not worthwhile only a few years ago.
(1:30:38) But I think I've been wholly convinced and if you've been listening to the show for the last 3 years, you know that I've had sort of a phase shift to recognizing that even if you don't care about political power, it cares about you and it's best to engage and I think you're on the front lines of this very important engagement. So, thank you. Well, thank you.
(1:30:57) I mean, thank you for putting out all the content. I mean, I don't know how many hours of your content that I listen to and helped, you know, uh charge me up as a Bitcoiner. Um, but no, it's it's really an honor. Like I'm I feel incredibly lucky. It just was sort of circumstance of how it worked out.
(1:31:18) Um, but you know, I I see this as a dream job. You know, my job is to pitch Bitcoin. That's really I can this is a job really. I can have this. Um, so you know, it's not like this this awful thinkless work. It it's really just like I get to be a Bitcoiner full-time.
(1:31:38) I get to like I think that working for BPI is really the closest you can get to just working for Bitcoin. Um maybe I mean obviously like uh you know on the development side that is certainly working for Bitcoin but um working for the network working for the ideals of what it represents making sure that the promise of what Bitcoin started as um is seen through that it's fulfilled that it doesn't stall out or get co-opted.
(1:32:08) I do think that uh working on policy is one of the true ways that you can work for Bitcoin. So, it's really an honor. Like, I'm just so thankful every day um that I'm able to do it. And um I was able to escape the fiat mines. You know, I was just I was just mining fiat for for years um on the corporate law side and just saw, you know, it was like uh uh you know, I mean, it was it was it was fine.
(1:32:32) It wasn't awful, but it wasn't deeply fulfilling. you know, now I have um and you probably feel the same way with with your the stuff you put out and your content is like um it is deeply deeply satisfying knowing that your work and energy is going towards um supporting Bitcoin and supporting America, you know. Uh I think that's incredibly important. So, I just feel really lucky.
(1:32:59) I really do. Um I would not want to be doing anything else. Yeah. and we're lucky to have you. And I I do feel the same way. The fact that I was able to wake up on a Monday morning, hop on a train, and this is my job sitting here with you talking about Bitcoin. It's pretty sick, not going to lie.
(1:33:18) Well, Connor, we won't wait six years between uh this episode and the next one. But Okay, good. Thank you. Uh thank you for your time. Thank you for what you're doing. Yeah. Well, thank you, Marty. Let's go win. We're going to win. Peace of love, freaks. We're going to win. Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.
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