Brian Morgenstern outlines the U.S. shift from Bitcoin crackdown to adoption, highlighting reserve plans, bit bonds, and bold federal moves.
In this episode of TFTC, Brian Morgenstern, Head of Public Policy at Riot Platforms and former White House official, details the dramatic pivot in U.S. federal policy from hostility to cooperation with the Bitcoin industry. Under Biden, efforts like Operation Chokepoint sought to debank and shut down crypto businesses, even targeting miners’ access to electricity, but under Trump, the administration has not only reversed these moves with executive orders but also launched a U.S. Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. Morgenstern argues that this reserve should be prioritized over stablecoin and market structure legislation, which he sees as distractions fueled by protectionist lobbying. He outlines budget-neutral strategies being explored, including seized asset recovery, federal land leasing for mining, and the introduction of bit bonds to both reduce national debt and expand citizen access to Bitcoin. The culture in D.C. has shifted, with Bitcoiners now influencing Treasury policy directly, and Brian emphasizes a dual-track approach: embed Bitcoin through policy while letting the private sector saturate the financial system. With midterms approaching and a 180-day strategy report on the horizon, he stresses the urgency of institutionalizing Bitcoin now—before the window closes—arguing that deep systemic integration will make it “too embedded to unwind.”
“We’ve gone from defending ourselves against the government to the government asking us: ‘What do you need from us?’”
“The strategic reserve is the most important long-term priority. If we wait too long, we’ll miss our first-mover advantage.”
“Bit bonds could reduce debt expense, offer upside to Americans, and commemorate our 250th anniversary with bold action.”
“You want to be a superpower? Then you want as much of the best asset as possible.”
“If Bitcoin gets embedded in every financial corner of the U.S., even future hostile administrations won’t be able to rip it out.”
“Over the last decade, the dollar lost a third of its value. Bitcoin is up 37,000%. Which is riskier?”
“We are not at the head of the table, but we’re definitely at the table. And that’s a win.”
This episode offers a powerful look at Bitcoin’s transformation from a regulatory target to a strategic asset in Washington, as Brian Morgenstern outlines the urgent policy shift and innovative tools like bit bonds that could reshape America’s financial future. It serves as a call to action for the Bitcoin community and policymakers to move decisively while political momentum is strong—because the chance to cement Bitcoin’s role in the U.S. and global economy may not come again.
0:00 - Intro
0:42 - We’re winning in bitcoin policy
10:25 - Fold & Bitkey
12:01 - Policy priorities and timeline
19:47 - Unchained
20:16 - Order of priority - stables before bitcoin
26:04 - Amassing wins for midterms
29:20 - Getting bitcoin too entrenched to ban
34:11 - Bitcoinized fin products
38:15 - Treasury and BitBonds
47:39 - We should not fund our demise
56:17 - Trump PR strategy
1:06:40 - Chevron doctrine
(00:00) The Biden administration launched pretty much a whole of government war against the industry. It's gone from us defending ourselves against our own government trying to put us out of business to an administration asking us, "What do you need from us?" At least for market structure, stable coins, and the SPR.
(00:16) They're trying to get stuff done this year. We're talking about this summer. Bit bonds, we need bold action. You can dramatically reduce your debt expense in one fell swoop. You can give risk-free exposure to the upside of Bitcoin to millions of American families. This is our one of our last chances as individuals to frontr run the United States and then every G7 and G20 government and everybody else.
(00:45) Supreaks, we're bringing back subreaks to start the episode. Brian, you're you're the first nice uh first guest in a while where we've done it. Uh so thank you for bearing with the uh the intro. I was I was told that we need to bring Subreaks back. So, bringing it back with Brian Morgan Stern had a policy at Riots and like I was saying before we hit record.
(01:06) I'm happy we were supposed to record on on Wednesday originally, but you had to attend an event at the White House and I was attending an event yesterday and I think uh that time between Wednesday and today was actually good to create better context for this conversation which is the state of Bitcoin and the world of policy in the United States and DC.
(01:25) you were very close to it, uh, well versed in it. And right before we jumped on here, you were saying there's a lot of a lot of winds that we can that we can point to right now. And starting with the history of of Bitcoin policy up to this point and the winds that we've we've been amassing. Yeah, there's there's a lot to discuss.
(01:45) I mean, I I remember when I started in this role at Riot, we were dealing with a state bill in Texas that would have been challenging uh for Bitcoin miners. We were able to overcome that. And then the Biden administration launched pretty much a whole of government war against the industry and tried to kick us out of the country um in a number of different ways.
(02:13) I mean, everybody can identify with the censorship regime that was going on in social media, things like that. But with respect to Bitcoin miners, the administration had come after our bank accounts, our ability to do business with Operation Chokepoint. Um, the Fed, the OC, and the FDIC had issued guidance essentially telling banks that they shouldn't do business with companies in our in industry.
(02:42) Um, they came after our access to electricity. We had to sue the energy department. Um, because Senator Warren and the Biden White House had issued some statements announcing their intention to limit or eliminate Bitcoin mining in the United States. And then that manifested in this effort to sort of create a registry of Bitcoin miners.
(03:05) Um so I had written an oped about that like censorshipping censoring um and uh debanking and then unplugging. So it was sort of this like I said a whole of government approach to to try to to harm our our industry. And now when the campaign got started in 2024, we were able to talk to the Trump campaign, explain who our voters were and why they cared about these issues and how the president could really uh find a wedge here that was that we we thought he would be sympathetic to and uh and how he could he could make good
(03:52) policy and good politics uh at the same time by really kind of embracing Bitcoin. So, we met with him. Um, we had written up some research on polling data and on policy issues. Uh, he was very open to it. Obviously, he came over to our side and ended up attending the Bitcoin conference, gave a a great speech, issued a couple tweets that were heard around the world, and um, now that he's taken office, he's been, you know, promises made, promises kept is kind of one of his mantras.
(04:25) they've eliminated operation choke point through executive order and then through guidance issued by various agencies. Um he signed executive orders establishing a task force uh of government adviserss. They've been accepting industry input. Um he signed an executive order launching the strategic Bitcoin reserve. Um and the the hits keep coming.
(04:49) So it just keeps going on and on. It's it's been very favorable. There's some other issues we're working on, some other wins that we can get. But it's gone from a government from us defending ourselves against our own government trying to put us out of business to an administration asking us, "What do you need from us? How can we help you succeed? How can we help America lead the world uh in this industry?" So, I mean, it's just been a complete sea change.
(05:15) It's been fun to be a part of it. Um, we've had a lot of help from some of our industry colleagues, but I'm, you know, proud of, I think, some of the leadership we've shown as well. It's been it's been a wild ride and it and it continues. Yeah, you guys have been crushing it. Particularly the the show that you is that officially sponsor like a official Rumble show where where you're sitting down, you're interviewing the peer-to-peer policy pod.
(05:42) Uh, so Rumble is very generous. They they have a studio here in DC. You know, they want content creators with sort of insider knowledge that uh that can help them post more content and build more audiences. And so they've welcomed us into their studio and just allowed us to record and post whatever we want. They don't tell us what to say.
(06:05) They just say uh essentially you know pres-schedule with us so that we can manage the flow of creators but you know put up whatever you want and we really want Bitcoin content we really want uh digital asset people to come in and speak to their issues because it's under represented on other platforms so they see an opportunity to grow um through that.
(06:26) So they've been really really generous with us. I uh I I have a very good problem which is that my co-host was just appointed senior adviser and chief speech writer to the Treasury Secretary. So I uh I I have uh brought in a a new uh future co-host who came to us from the Texas Public Policy Foundation, a great guy named Zach Whiting.
(06:54) He hosted a podcast down there in Austin. Uh, so he and I will reboot the uh the Beerto-Peer pod and we'll have uh season two coming soon. But yeah, Rumble's been great. They've just invited us in and said create content, say whatever you want, get your messages out and and uh we've been doing that. It's it's really and they're a terrific team to work with and it's top-notch content as well.
(07:20) I'm very happy that they're giving you that space to have those conversations because they're important. And as you mentioned, I didn't know if it was public yet, but your former co-host, Sam, uh joining the the Treasury staff. I think that's pretty big for our industry. I don't think many people realize that there's a person like Sam in the Treasury.
(07:39) He was somebody who I mean, I saw both of you in DC at the BPI event last was that last month, early last month. And uh I didn't know that he had that position or was vying for that position, but I I guess right before he joined Treasury B Treasury Secretary uh Bass's staff, I mean, he wrote an article for Forbes basically laying out bit bonds.
(08:01) And so after reading that article and being like, "Oh, wow. You're you're in the staff now." That's pretty interesting to me. Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's a small town here. It's a big high school in Washington DC, but somebody who's as talented as Sam, I mean, they they need him as as much as he wanted to to go and serve the the country.
(08:24) He's a tremendous guy, really talented. He had been working on the the bit the Bitbond stuff for a while, was really interested in it. I think wrote articulately about it. Um, and uh he's a former speech writer. He had been speech writer to Senator Orin Hatch. He also contributed to his hilarious Twitter account. Uh he's famously really funny.
(08:49) So he has experienced jokew writing too, which I think is cool. But great storyteller and uh I think he and the secretary have a good vibe uh together. So I I think he he's a good person to kind of be his voice and and he has great views of course on Bitcoin, but also on um sort of the economic model the administration's trying to build with re-industrialization of America, building up more workingclass jobs.
(09:16) Um you know, reshoring um kind of this the the the whole approach cracking down on immigration and focusing on American citizens. Um I I think he does have kind of it helps when you actually believe in what you're doing and you're willing to take the risk and you see the value uh of what's on the other side.
(09:40) So I think it's a really good fit and um and he's a great guy. So he'll be a big help there at uh at Treasury. And the sky's is the limit. You know, in a Trump administration or any administration, people will these are pressure cooker jobs. You can't do them forever. your average White House press secretary is there for like a year, year and a half.
(10:00) Um, just as one example. Uh, so he has an opportunity if he sticks it out a little while to potentially move up in the ranks uh as well. And with uh with his level of talent, I have no doubt that he will if he wants to stay, you know, for more than just this gig. But he'll make a great impact. I think these are important issues to articulate to the American people and to the world.
(10:20) And so you really need a talented writer like Sam to to to help do that. Listen freaks, I know you're tired of me talking about Fold, but I'm going to beat the drum. I'm going to beat the dead horse. If you're a Bitcoiner living in the United States and you're not using Fold, I'm just going to ask one question.
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(12:06) Yeah. putting uh putting a good foot forward for for Bitcoin, the industry and and the movement at large. And I I think on that note, what we were discussing before we hit record is we've had a lot of wins up to this point. Obviously, we have an administration that wants to foster, nurture, and really accelerate the the Bitcoin industry in the United States.
(12:30) Let's touch on what's on the table right now. What the priorities currently are, what maybe they should be. Like I was saying, I was in an event yesterday and it became clear to me, it has been clear. I've heard people talking about this, but wasn't until yesterday where I I was sitting down, we were talking about the the policies that are on the table right now.
(12:49) I was like, "Oh, these are really the priorities, particularly stable coin legislation, market structure legislation, and it seems like the the Bitcoin strategic reserve is a distant third in terms of priority." And I was sitting there listening to this and to me, if you're thinking about long-term benefits to the United States and individual American citizens, putting all this focus on stable coins and market structure at this particular juncture uh doesn't seem like the best sort of order of operations of things to prioritize in my mind because in my
(13:27) mind, stable coin legislation like do we do we really need it? and the free market is sort of solving that problem. And I in my mind, I didn't say this in the tweet I sent last night, but I I have tweeted this before, it just seems like US- ccentric stable coin issuers, particularly Circle and USDC, are a bit jealous of the success that Tether has had internationally, and would like to create somewhat of a regulatory moat here in the United States.
(13:57) And if they're successful in doing that, I think it's going to be a pirick victory because I think Tether's had incredible success globally just because of the nature of their product and the ease of use of somebody downloading a wallet, getting onto Tether as quickly as possible, and having essentially a US dollar bank account in the form of Tether.
(14:17) Um, if we get a stable coin bill that sort of kills Tether and Circle's like, "Oh, we're going to go do this." I don't think they're going to have similar success to Tether and we could actually see an encroachment from BICRICS countries trying to get their digital currency in the hands in other uh in many parts of the world, hands of individuals in many parts of the world.
(14:36) And then market structure, it seems like that was a problem that that stemmed from Gary Gensler being the the chairman of the SEC. And now that he's gone, it's like, do we do we really need appropriate market structure bills to be passed and prioritized right now when you have Trump launching memecoins? And uh seems like that problem as well.
(14:59) I mean, we know there's a lot of grift and scams that that exist in the in the world of broader crypto, but people have lost a lot of money, but still like I'm a free market guy. It's like if people are going to burn their money, it's a good lesson to learn. Like is that a priority? Where the strategic reserve distant third, it's like if we're thinking about long-term American success, I think focusing on how to incorporate Bitcoin at the federal government level via the Treasury is probably where most of the effort should
(15:28) be focused now considering the the arms race that that has been incited globally. And if you wait too long on that, you could sort of slip up. That's that's my perspective. interested to hear yours. Um, I would say broadly in agreement with some nuance to it. So, first of all, I I I totally agree that the moment is now, especially since they announced the creation of a reserve.
(15:54) I think the space race has begun like the starter pistol has been fired. You don't want to then wait a long time and lose your kind of first major mover or advantage. Um that said, they are looking actively at budget neutral ways to acquire new Bitcoin aside from the legislation that Senator Lumis uh and Congressman Beg have introduced.
(16:20) Um so the administration is working on it actively as we speak and I think they'll have more to say about that probably in the president's 180day report that he ordered. Um so they're they're working on that. And I think in the next couple months we'll have more information about what exactly the administration wants to do on that front.
(16:42) Um I I do kind of agree that if if you're prioritizing legislation based on urgency, which arguably you may want to do, you should move the strategic reserve up front. Um, I think the stable coin bill, you know, my hope is that they're not uh exclusionary in that way. Um, I know great people at at Circle, but I don't think they should have a regulatory mode.
(17:12) I think it it should be more of a a free market. Um, I think some kind of memorialization in legislation would be good to prevent a backslide in the future for both stable coins and the market structure bill. Um, I do agree that, you know, I think Gensler was acting lawlessly and so you don't necessarily need a new law now that you have an SEC chair in Paul Atkins that intends to follow the law.
(17:39) Um that said, you know, perhaps some uh some clarity in in legislation again could prevent a backslide uh in a future administration or a whipsaw. Like we don't want any industry success to depend on who wins the next election. It would be nice to have some permanence. Um and given the administration's approach uh the Biden administration's approach um I understand that you know past can be prologue and so I think this order of operations was in response to what the industry uh various industries experienced over the last four years and
(18:17) so that kind of carried over and there can when you've shifted an aircraft carrier so dramatically it can be hard a little bit to be as as nimble as you want to be and reflect current circumstances. Um, you know, that said, I I I have noticed a change in messaging and tone from several members uh on the hill, in particular the Senate Digital Asset Subcommittee that, you know, the Bitcoin reserve was a distant third.
(18:50) Now, I think it's creeping up in the list of priorities. So I think that's a good development. Hopefully that continue that trend continues and we can get it to the front of the line as you suggest. Um but I I think you know we experienced choppy waters of course these other industries did as well. So, I understand why they want legislation so that if the next election goes in a different direction, they don't then have to fight the same fights over again um for their very existence. So, I agree the priorities I
(19:30) think uh could be adjusted a little better um based on urgency uh and current circumstance. But I do see some value in uh in getting legislation across the finish line just to have permanence and not have to fight for your life again. Our good friends Parker Lewis and Drew Bonsol are two of the deepest thinkers in Bitcoin.
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(20:10) Watch the premiere at unchained.com/tc. That's unchained.com/tc. No, and I can totally see see that as well and agree. But again, just going back to like priority like long-term what will have the the most profound effect is it stable coins market structure or Bitcoin strategic reserve. I think undoubtedly it's the third like if you're thinking long-term like locking that in cuz as we know right now the executive order has been signed we do have a Bitcoin strategic reserve but as you said the same could happen to to that
(20:45) executive order if a new administration gets in and I guess that highlights like how with midterms in in mind like how narrow or wide is the window to get to get this stuff done in your mind? Well, they're trying to get stuff done this year. I mean, they want to get all of it, as much of it as they can done by August recess.
(21:09) That is an ambitious schedule. In 2017, I was at the Treasury Department and, you know, they were wrestling with whether to do health care first or tax cuts first. And um healthcare failed and then they had to do tax cuts. And I remember being on the phone with leadership staffers over the summer saying, "We got to get tax cuts done by the end of the summer.
(21:28) " that didn't happen. So then it was tax cuts for Christmas. They were restless over that uh timeline saying it was too fast. Um so it's not a good thing, but this is how slowly Congress moves. So if they're able to get all three uh or at least be on a glide path for all three uh in the next few months, I think that that would be great.
(21:57) I I know that, you know, David Saxs and Bo Hines uh in their roles, I mean, David's a special government employee in SGE, so he has a limited time appointment. Um I think Bo has noted that they've gotten a lot of things done, Operation Chokepoint, SEC dropping cases, things like that in a very short time. And I think his position is they'd love to get these things done by uh by the summer recess as well and and have a whole bunch of achievements achievements to hang their hat on.
(22:28) Um similarly with the tariff agenda, I think they want to get as many trade deals across the finish line as possible because they don't want to be heading into midterms with markets as sort of disruptive as they've been and people looking at their 401ks with some dismay. Um, so I I think they want to see things on a on an upswing with a bunch of achievements and a rising tide in the early part of next year of 2026 so that voters will have a chance to get comfortable in advance of the midterms.
(23:03) They want to be in as strong a position as possible to make that argument that more Republicans should be elected to Congress um in in the next year. And you can't do that if things aren't smoothing out until like October, like right before the election. There isn't enough time for voters to process that.
(23:20) So they they're on a very limited time frame. Um I would say by I would say the drop dead date in terms of when they want to accomplish a lot of these things is going to be Q1 of 2026, but their stated goals for at least for market structure, stable coins, and to some level the SPR we're talking about this summer.
(23:39) Um the 180day report I think is going to be the the landmark the next landmark along the way to look at um because whatever is in that report uh that's not accomplished at least on the regulatory side or the legislative side. There may be more executive orders to come out of that process.
(23:58) But just making sure that they are ticking those boxes because they made promises. They want to keep them. They built this coalition of voters that aren't your typical voters on party lines and they want to keep them intact. If you get a voter, this is just political science for you. If if you get a a voter like a Bitcoin voter who is totally across party lines, demographics, everything, many of them didn't vote in past elections, but they voted in this one.
(24:28) If you can get them to vote again in the next election, you have a very high chance of keeping that coalition together for future elections. If you lose them after that first election, it's very difficult to bring them back. So, they really want to keep that that group of people motivated, interested, happy. Um, so they they really do have a very strong incentive to get these things done, especially for some of the members who have a lot of Bitcoiners in their district or where we spent with the Bitcoin voter project or where Fairshake uh, you know, spent more
(25:10) broadly on crypto issues. These members are sensitive to it and especially I if they were opposed by crypto voters, they want to win them over. if they're supported by them, they want to keep them in their tent. Um, so it's it's not just Trump that's concerned about this, it's the members as well.
(25:28) So they do feel the urgency to get stuff done in the next few months. I'm hopeful that that will happen. It is a very heavy lift. As I said, like even something as simple as Republican majorities in Congress in 2017, 2018, like if you told me that it was going to be difficult to get Republican members to pass tax cuts, I would have said that's crazy.
(25:50) That's like always agenda item number one. But it was difficult because you got blue state Republicans, you got some red state Democrats. It's it's uh the sausage making is very messy. Uh which I learned up close. Yeah, I think that's pretty obvious from the outside looking in. It's never never as easy as people think.
(26:12) But again, it is important to try to amass as many wins as possible both via legislation and on the regulatory front. And I think last night was a big step on the regulatory front with the Federal Reserve Board announcing the withdrawal of guidance for banks related to their crypto asset and dollar token activities and related changes to its expectations of these activities.
(26:31) And so again going back to like the stable coin bill, it's like was SAB 121 a bigger hindrance to banks and financial institutions uh instituting stable coins or other quoteunquote crypto assets? and is SAP 22 now that it exists and now the Fed essentially bending the knee and saying yes, you guys can play with this without having to report it sort of a a sign like maybe that doesn't need to be the top priority.
(26:57) Yeah, potentially. I mean that I would say what sort of kicked off in earnest the war on the industry was that guidance which was paired with statements from the White House about how Bitcoin or stables or crypto activity, whatever vague terms they were using, posed risks to the safety and soundness of the financial system, which is what scared the pants off of every financial institute.
(27:29) from even doing business with a large public company or having community banks respond to their customers who said, "Hey, I'd like to add Bitcoin to my holdings. Would you custody it for me?" And you know, the the that kind of governance by press release had really chilled the market and scared people away and then of course was followed by a number of actions like the the energy department.
(27:59) Um, so having those statements taken away, uh, repealed, revoked, whatever, um, really does kind of signify that it's a new day in town and which, as you say, reduces the urgency of those other pieces of legislation. But the Bitcoin piece probably should be the most definitely should be the most urgent because it's a finite asset.
(28:24) if we don't capitalize on this big first mover advantage, somebody else will. And you know, now is the the time to do it. So, I'm glad the administration is working on it uh as we speak. I wish Congress would move it up on their agenda. Um hope springs eternal. We keep making the rounds and encouraging that. Like I said, there's been kind of a shift in tone, but we haven't seen Chairman Scott and Senate Banking move it to priority number one. I wish he would.
(28:54) Um, we haven't seen Chairman Hill and the House move it to priority number one, but I wish he would. Um, but we'll we'll keep pushing and and we'll see what happens. If they get stables and market structure done quickly and and are working on the SPR at the same time so that they can just kind of rapid fire these votes, that would be great.
(29:15) Um, but I don't I don't know that that'll happen. We may have to wait a few more months, unfortunately. But I wish they'd move faster. And again, I think it's important to put everything in perspective. The fact that we're even having this conversation about prioritization of these different things is mind-blowing in and of itself.
(29:30) If you were to tell us only a year ago and we were having serious discussions about it, it would be like what? So, I think we should again take the wins while we get them. It may be frustrating, but uh put things in perspective. It's much better than it was this time last year. And on that note too, like knowing that how the sausage is made is very u very uh messy and can be take quite a while, especially in light of the Fed's announcement last night, SAB 122, uh the repeal of 121.
(30:06) Like do you if the banks actually lean into this over the next four years and implement it into their businesses, begin offering products and services to their customers, do you envision um a scenario in which even if legislation doesn't get past the embedded nature of Bitcoin in the financial system? I don't want to say too big to fail, but it it sort of entrenches itself to a point where it's going to be significantly harder for an upcoming administration that may think differently to to sort of pull that out of the system if it's already
(30:41) been implemented. I do I think all of this feeds off each other and I I guess to use an old adage around town here in DC, you know, politics often flows downhill from culture. And so now that at least these barriers are removed by changes in personnel, personnel is policy and a lot of these changes are being implemented um by the new administration.
(31:12) That's going to pave the way for these activities to start and there's already the market incentives to do that. And so I think it will make the legislative avenues even more common sense and put the people who oppose them in a even more awkward corner than they're already in. Um so it should create more of a a smoother road, more of a glide path to get them done.
(31:37) Um and even like you say, even if the legislation is slow moving or messy or gets tripped up, uh the market availability, you know, to be creative and start offering more services is there now. And so I think the the race is on for these institutions to to go down those roads. And we're looking at and they're going to have that runway for four years now.
(32:03) So four years hence, who knows? I mean, Riot just did a deal with Coinbase for liquidity, you know, based on our our strategic Bitcoin reserve. Um, $100 million deal. Of course, in our sized economy, maybe that's a ripple in the pond, but um you're going to see more of that. You've already seen my what sailor's doing at Strategy.
(32:28) I mean, it's there's a lot of creativity happening right now, a lot of new avenues for liquidity and leveraging Bitcoin. I think that's going to continue now for four years. It's going to be very hard to roll that back. And from a political standpoint, they already saw how big our community is, how diverse it is, how people can actually be motivated to vote on these pocket literal pocketbook issues.
(32:57) Um, so I I think the opposition is dying on the vine more uh each and every day. And we've I think done a pretty good job of putting like Senator Warren in her own little box where any Democrat who wants to look moderate in any sense. Like in our meetings a lot of times they'll they'll either listen intently for our feedback and take notes and take it back or some of them will kick it off by like sort of apologizing and saying, "Well, we're not sponsoring that.
(33:30) we're not signing on to these letters. Like she's doing her thing, but like that's not our thing, you know? So, we're already kind of seeing how we've been able to isolate the extremists uh on our issues. And so, that's one step towards growing the coalition that, like I said, is going to put us in a position so that our success doesn't depend on the next election.
(33:52) We're going to succeed no matter what. It's just a matter of degree. Um, and this 4-year runway for new creativity, new products, uh, embedding Bitcoin in the financial landscape. Um, it's it's going to make it much harder to oppose. I very much agree with that. That's I' I've been pushing that on the show in the newsletter for months now.
(34:19) It's We have this air cover from the Trump administration. Well, I do think in the perspective of the three bills that are on the table, stable market structure, Bitcoin strategic reserve, I think the reserve should be the priority. However, even if we don't get the strategic reserve, if the private market just does its thing and embeds Bitcoin into as many products as possible, as quickly as possible, I think it's going to be extremely hard to unwind that.
(34:51) And I that's like the drum I'm beating is like, "Yo, private market, just get to work. Start building products, getting it into the system. Don't wait on the government to give you perm." Like, you actually have tacet permission to go do this. Go do it. Don't depend on the strategic Bitcoin reserve to really put the nail in the coffin of any chance of Bitcoin um getting destroyed by the government.
(35:13) like just go embed Bitcoin into as many nooks and crannies of the US economy as you can to to make it systemically important. And uh that's why I'm excited about products like Battery and their their structured finance products and um Strike launching their lending product. Um everything that's going on with Meanwhile and their life insurance.
(35:36) I I think all these sort of vanilla products that that everyday people are familiar with, Bitcoinizing those is going to be way more high leverage than people realize right now. I agree with that. Yeah. And um a lot of people look they they just had a hearing in the Texas House about the Texas Strategic Bitcoin Reserve and there was a member, you know, sounding the alarm, I guess, about the volatility and how the people's money being held in a volatile asset is risky and it could devalue and all this stuff.
(36:17) Um, you know, I wasn't at the hearing, but if I was, I would have pointed out, uh, you know, over the last decade, the dollar has lost a third or more of its value, Bitcoin's gone up by like 37,000%. Which asset do you think is riskier again? you know, like um so it's uh yeah, it's it's a matter of time before the hardest, soundest money ever uh really does get does get embedded.
(36:50) It it's a stark reminder of the importance of education that we keep having to make the rounds that not everybody lives this dayto-day. There's still so many people who need to learn more. Um and uh I I know the president values the dollar as the as the world reserve currency. I think Sailor and others have made the argument that we don't have to sacrifice that Bitcoin could help it remain that if the US is smart about it um and having Bitcoin in its uh in its toolkit, maybe a Bitcoin stable coin barbell situation, whatever it may be.
(37:30) But if you just turn up your nose at Bitcoin because well it's volatile then I mean you're just you're going to fail. Like you're going to be you're going to wake up someday and say oh man I wish I got in there. But this is our one of our last chances to as purchasers as as consumers as individuals to frontr run the United States and then every G7 and G20 government and everybody else.
(37:58) So, uh, you know, wake up and put your coffee can travel fund or whatever now in Bitcoin cuz you're not going to have that chance. Uh, or you'll get much less for it if you wait. Um, so yeah, now is the time. I wish the SPR were were higher on the agenda. Yeah. Well, with that in mind, let's let's shift this to focus on the Treasury and how it may or may not implement Bitcoin in your mind with the options that are on the table for budget neutral ways to acquire Bitcoin strategically for reserve. What makes the most sense to
(38:37) you and is the most politically palatable and the best way for the Treasury to approach this? Yeah, there's there's several ideas on the table and um you know, we uh interviewed I think Bitcoin Magazine's got something coming out where I was at the White House with them uh on Wednesday as he said, "Thank you for rescheduling.
(39:00) " They um and and Bo talks about how they're compiling tons of ideas. There's lots of smart people talking to them and planting seeds in their mind. um they're going to have to meet as a working group, as a task force that the president created and weed weed through these things, separate the wheat from the chaff.
(39:22) Um the first order of business is the Treasury Department is getting an accounting of how much Bitcoin the government owns. So, they've had to send letters and solicit information from departments all across the government, US attorneys offices all across the country that have uh had law enforcement actions that that may involve uh seized assets.
(39:43) Of course, they seized lots of different assets. There's the forfeite fund that has like famously really cool expensive cars and planes from drug dealers and stuff. So, you know, cash, there's all sorts of assets. Of course, Bitcoin is is some part of that. So, they're they're trying to do an accounting.
(40:04) And then in terms of how they supplement that and acquire Bitcoin in budget neutral ways, some of the interesting ideas I've heard are, you know, I love bit bonds. I love the idea. That's going to take that's a heavy lift to get people comfortable with that idea. there's the Treasury office that manages all the debt uh in issuances.
(40:28) I think we'll have to get educated and up up to speed on that. I think the Treasury Secretary himself, while he has said very favorable things about Bitcoin, will still need to be kind of educated and enlightened uh on this issue. Whether we are able to get that across the finish line, I I don't know. But I do think that's a great way to do it.
(40:46) Um some of the other ways you know the president's been talking about instead of accumulating more debt helping the American people accumulate assets monetizing a lot of the properties the US government owns like 2/3 of the western United States they have licensing agreements for oil and gas you know energy development the energy department issued an RFI that is currently outstanding if anybody wants to comment about how to run data centers uh at uh federal sites where energy resources may be available. Um you could
(41:24) potentially have Bitcoin mining operations, you could have private miners have similar licensing agreements where with like oil and gas companies, you're kind of sharing the benefit with the American people. It you can make an agreement that makes sense both for the private company and the government. Maybe the government uh as part of that agreement is paid rent in bitcoin that is mined at the site something like that.
(41:58) Um the uh army corps owns I forget hundreds I think of uh hydro resources that are to my mind currently way underutilized. So the government could could have mining uh facilities at sites like that. Um there are there's Senator Lumis' bill, the Bitcoin Act, which would revalue the gold certificates. Interesting point about this is that, you know, it's been done in the past.
(42:27) Um if they were to mark the gold to market, you're basically unlocking, I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars up to a trillion dollars uh in in new money. um that has could have a bit of a deletterious effect in that you you are kind of printing money in that way. Um there is the political calculation that if the Republicans controlling the majority of both houses in the White House right now if they don't do it in the future the Democrats could do it and if you're talking to a Republican member the message is and they could spend that
(43:04) money on something that you don't like whatever that may be a department of DEI or department of minor trans surgeries I don't know whatever the whatever the idea it may be that a Republican congressman is not going to like. So, you should do it on your priorities like no tax on tips or uh seeding the sovereign wealth fund or using 10 or 15% of that to seed the strategic Bitcoin reserve.
(43:35) Um so, I I don't know where that's going to go. I think it's in discussions among some members for the reconciliation package to make the tax cuts permanent. um whether that could be a part of it, maybe a portion of it could go towards uh relieving the national debt. Um you know, but taking a slice of that for the strategic Bitcoin reserve. It's an idea.
(43:56) It's an idea that's under discussion. That's a tough coalition to build in both houses of Congress. Perhaps that urgency message I just described could help move it along. Um, but the these are a few of the methods that I have heard about that I know have been communicated to the administration. But as I said, I, you know, Bo Hines is great and our interview with him will come out, I think, early next week.
(44:26) Um, and he talked about how they're collecting tons of ideas. They're going to have to meet as a working group. they're going to have to set the top two or three easiest or uh most sound ways of doing it and then they'll execute on that. But he's made it clear that the government's position, the Trump administration's position is they want to acquire as much as possible.
(44:46) He said it's like asking somebody how much gold do you want or how much any other valuable asset that you want. If you want to be a superpower, you want as much of it as you can get. So, I think it's an encouraging statement of policy from the administration. How that is translated into reality, we're going to have to wait and see, I think, a few more months.
(45:11) But I'm hopeful that that 180day report gives us more clarity on that. Yeah. Well, if anybody on the working group is listening to the show, which I know you are, I know you guys all listen. Bitbonds. We're approaching the 250th anniversary birthday of our declaration of independence from the British crown. We need bold action.
(45:35) Debt little high little high right now. That debt expense, that interest expense getting a bit higher. 10ear yield not where we want it to be. We need bold action. I think bit bonds is the bold action. Every hundred days in debt. If you reduce that interest rate from 4 and a quarter to 1% or even less, you're going a long way towards solving this problem, which the president has said is a priority.
(46:00) The Treasury Secretary, this is one of the reasons why he ended up leaving his multibillion dollar business to come be Treasury Secretary was to fix the debt problem. You can dramatically reduce your debt expense in one fell swoop. If you can get bit bonds off the ground, you can give risk-free exposure to the upside of Bitcoin to millions of American families by doing this.
(46:28) You will improve the quality of life. You'll reverse the trend of the melting iceberg dollar if you do bit bonds. So yeah, we need to get that Andrew Hones guy into the Treasury Department to sing the gospel of bit bonds and try to get this thing moving because it really would be revolutionary to commemorate the 250th anniversary.
(46:54) It's the time it's we it's a great story. I know Andrew well he could talk the the balls off a pool table. He can get in there and tell a story and sell bit bonds. We just need to get him in the room. Bo, if you're listening, I know you are. I know you listen to the show. Let's make it happen. Bold moves. We need it. Yes. And Tyler Williams, our friend.
(47:13) Used to be a Galaxy. Now he's counselor to the secretary. I love Tyler. Uh he can be a little I don't know. He's an institutionalist. He's like, you know, is a creature of the Senate. He's more deliberative. All I'm saying, Tyler, is deliberate faster because this is a really good idea, but we got to do it sooner rather than later.
(47:38) So, let's let's push that through. Yeah. Speaking about bold moves from the Treasury, what are your thoughts on taking a broader view on the Treasury's position and the goals they're they're trying to accomplish? How big was Secretary Bass's speech earlier this week in your mind? Um, I think it was great. I think he's an excellent messenger for, like I said, this economic model that they're trying to build.
(48:07) It's hard to argue that over the last 30 years, the quality of life for your typical American, the their purchasing power uh has improved cuz I think the data shows that it really hasn't. Um, he wants to reverse that trend. uh him saying in not this week but in a previous speech about how uh you know Wall Street has done very well, market returns have been I think somewhat inflated.
(48:35) I've benefited uh a good amount from that. Uh but a rebalancing really is is needed. Um there have been a lot of discussions about the downward trend started by China entering the WTO and then US just becoming an importer of cheap goods rather than a maker and exporter of all sorts of things. Um, I think these are really sound goals and would broaden and strengthen a middle class economy where you could have a one-ear household more frequently.
(49:12) You can have people um with much greater purchasing power or at least it'll erode much slower. um another argument for bit bonds seriously in just allowing people to have risk-free investments or keep their cash in things that are going to appreciate. Um so I I I think his his description of what they're trying to do is really really important because there's a section of people who have an outsized microphone.
(49:45) I I can be part of this group at times because I live in the Asella corridor, but they're just looking at their portfolios and they're not thinking about the rest of the country or the country as a whole. And Elon Musk has talked about like if the ship of America sinks, then what's going to happen to your company? What's going to happen to those returns over the long run? Um, so the short-term volatility is interesting for me to listen to and the explanation of why it's okay and why things will be better later because it's something I
(50:17) think Bitcoiners are of course really familiar with that this transition or this uh the years since Bitcoin was created until now has kind of been like an EKG reading but it's gone up and to the right and I think that's he's helping to translate that message for a broader audience, not specifically respect with respect to Bitcoin, but with respect to we need to endure this short-term volatility in exchange for long-term stable growth and a stronger economy.
(50:58) As a result, we saw in CO that the US doesn't make enough stuff. we don't make enough pharmaceuticals or the items that belonged in the strategic medical reserve like rubber gloves and you know PPE and all of these things. Um we don't make enough things that we need in a crisis in the United States. We cannot be relying on adversarial nations for these items.
(51:20) We should build them here and build a stronger workforce and middle class as a result of it. I think his translating these things uh is critically important. his speech with respect to China and the the global organizations, World Bank, IMF. I mean, I love it when an American administration goes into the multilateral institutions and just punches them in in the nose because they deserve it.
(51:47) Uh, giving China, you know, favored nation status or giving them developing nation status of course is ridiculous. The US is the biggest funer of the World Bank. The fact that China is a a big offtaker of those loans means the US taxpayers are funding their own demise. It makes no sense. There needs to be a very stark correction.
(52:08) IMF and World Bank need to be refocused on their mission. The World Bank should not be a climate change, I don't know, spokesperson or cheerleader or whatever. it it's supposed to be solving poverty and that was our goal to build up other markets around the world and to have a more profitable and prosperous and safe world. Um that should be the focus.
(52:30) Um so you know to the extent the IMF has been going down that road, they've been very bad on monetary policy for a long time. If you ever want to read the same oped 150 times, look at David Malpass's writings on the IMF and how bad they've been at at monetary policy. So getting these institutions pointed in the right direction is necessary for the world, but especially for the United States as one of the biggest funders of these institutions.
(52:59) We do have goals that are in our strategic interest with those groups, but they've become Americahating climate churches. Um, so we got to fix them. So I was very glad to see that. I loved it when Trump went to Davos. when I worked for him, he went to Davos and said, "I don't know what you guys are doing. You should do what I'm doing.
(53:20) Cut taxes, deregulate, argue for trade deals that are good for your country, just as I'm going to argue for trade deals that are good for my country. I don't know why you're all not doing this, but uh they were all dreading his arrival and his speech was just a total punch in the nose.
(53:37) But I remember when he did arrive, everybody had their cell phones out. They all jumped out of their chairs. They were all starruck. So the American presidency is very powerful. You can use it for good if you're willing to take bold action. So I think Bessant is spreading that good word on behalf of the president in a way that people can understand and they can digest it and it calms their nerves a little bit when they understand exactly what he's trying to build.
(54:08) And I think that's been a very good byproduct of his speeches. Yeah, I think that particular speech I was even I mean it makes sense after he said it, but it's like one of those things you need to have articulated to be like, yeah, this isn't right. The whole China being treated as a developing nation when it's the second largest economy in the world.
(54:27) It's like, but yeah, that doesn't make any sense. And the fact that we're funding our own demise, as you laid it out, yeah, I think that is powerful, potent, and most importantly, pretty easy to distill. like you can say, "Yeah, that these two things don't add up. It doesn't make sense." It does make sense that we should try to fix that and change that to get everybody on a level playing field.
(54:51) Well, and here's kind of the dirty little secret. I think when cuz I've spent time around the IMF and World Bank. I think a lot of these member nations and their representatives know this. This was not a surprise when he said it that uh that these are the facts. What was a surprise was that he said it out loud and in public. That was the surprise because this is something that everybody knows and everybody would kind of hang their head and shrug their shoulders and say like, you know, if if it was said public or privately, they would say, "Yeah, that's
(55:28) probably bad and we'd rather do business with you than them and yeah, but what are you going to do about it?" You know, kind of shrug and hang their head. Now we have the American government saying it out loud. Why are you doing this? This is crazy. we're going to fix this. That's a leadership that's necessary to get everybody to stop with this mindless nodding and shrugging and actually say, "All right, you know what? We could fix this and that would be good for all of us.
(56:00) " So, um, it's amazing how things can happen when you're just willing to say that verboten thing out loud and in public. But it's taken the Trump administration and Secretary Bessant to actually get it out there. And thank goodness they did. Live not by lies applied by the US government.
(56:22) It's uh it's good to see if you want to prevent yourself from turning into a communist hell hole. Live not by lies. Point out the the obvious lies that are being fed to the people. This is insane. You should not be subsidizing China. No. And it is chaotic. And you mentioned the market volatility and I think that's another important thing.
(56:45) to really realize, particularly if you're just reacting to the mainstream media's reaction to what the Trump administration is doing. If you look at polls outside of the boomer generation and white women, uh Trump's favorability has actually gone up in every other demo. I'm pretty sure I saw that earlier this week.
(57:06) So I think it's important while all this is going on and unfolding and the media and the left uh pundits pundits on the left are reacting to it and trying to manufacture um w the perception of widespread dread and um hatred for these policies. is if you actually look at the the polling numbers, it does seem like a very large section of the American population is okay with this volatility because these moves are being made.
(57:36) And there does seem to be some understanding because of the hypercommunicative nature of this administration that that this is some necessary pain to reset things. I think that's right. I I think a lot of the mainstream media doesn't give the American people enough credit and President Trump knows that. I mean, he of course was I mean, he's been famous for 50 years and he was always on the cover of the New York Post when I was a kid growing up in the New York area.
(58:05) But you know, one of the ways uh he had built this base of support was not through being famous on the apprentice or any of the the various ways he was very well known nationally, but he would have sort of a state and local communications plan. I learned this when I worked at the White House. He would do a lot of morning drive time radio shows.
(58:29) He would do a lot of, you know, Good Day Birmingham or, you know, the kind of the local uh local version of the Today Show or or whatever you want to call it, and he would just listen to the questions, see what those people were talking about in their communities. Still, a lot of Americans are watching their 6:00 news or listening to their local radio hosts and things like that.
(58:50) And he would do those shows, which don't get you national attention, but it brings you into the living rooms and hearts of like those people. And I there's a hilarious story from my buddy Cliff Sims who also was in the first Trump administration where he had run a media outlet in Alabama and he had Donald Trump on a a radio broadcast in like July and he said, "You know what people don't do anymore? They don't say merry Christmas.
(59:18) I don't like all this happy holidays. It's Christmas. We should say merry Christmas." And he said the phone lines were lit up and were it was ringing off the hook of callers calling to say, "Yeah, you know, he's right. Like I don't like I've been kind of not along like going along with that, but this happy holidays nonsense, but I don't like that.
(59:36) We should say merry Christmas." And so like he has this ability to just like I said, say that thing out loud that people maybe have been thinking but haven't been saying. And when they hear it come out of his mouth, it's they feel like he's on their side. And he notwithstanding all the screeching and rending of clothes of what's going on right now with the tariff and trade deal negotiations, most Americans actually do get it and understand he's sticking up for them and he's trying to build a stronger employment base for them in their
(1:00:13) communities. Whereas these, you know, these corridors on the east and west coast have been more focused on their market returns and not the day-to-day life of people between the coasts. He is focused on that. Most people get it. Um, but we live in echo chambers these days and the echo chambers that are reflected by the mainstream media don't think in those terms.
(1:00:42) But he knows that there are all these other people who do. That's why when he was running for president in 2016, people were surprised, but he would fill a stadium with 24 hours notice. I mean, he sold out uh I forget which arena it was, might have been Chicago, I don't remember. Um but on like very short notice, I think 24 hours, they had filled the entire arena and they broke the attendance record.
(1:01:03) And we got out of his car. uh there was somebody there to greet him and said, "Congratulations, you've just set the record for ticket sales at this facility." And we had Elton John here last year. So like, well, if it was the United Center, too, that's where Michael Jordan um was was coming up. Yeah. Pretty wild.
(1:01:24) So, uh that that willingness going back to Besson's speech, that that willingness to say that thing that that people know out loud, uh has really endeared him to tens of millions of people. And that's that's why people understand what he's doing now. And there's still a lot of consumers in the mainstream media. Still really good ratings for your mainstream broadcast, NBC Nightly News, CBS Evening News, uh ABC World News Tonight.
(1:01:51) They they still it's been going down, but they still have uh you know, pretty good market share of those boomers you talked about. Um, but now alternative media is getting his side of the story out much more frequently and much more effectively. So, it's not as much of this bull work that he has to bust through.
(1:02:12) It's still there, but it's not as much of one because he spent so many years laying that groundwork I'm describing of talking to people directly and through their local outlets and doing events there and all that. So, um, it's and it's paying off now. I I I think deep down, you know, he had been flirting with running for president since like the 80s and I think knew in his heart of hearts, I'm going to be president someday.
(1:02:35) So, I actually think maybe a lot of this was in service of that goal. Uh but now he's reaping the benefits. Talk about a long play. I mean, my gosh. And he's been talking about tariffs since Oprah in the '90s. And uh now he actually gets to execute and run this experiment. But it's uh it's fun to watch. And I I agree. There's an audience that totally understands it that is not reflected in the mainstream media.
(1:02:59) And you think after decades of Trump basically playing this this media game, the mainstream media would wake up and understand, particularly in 2025, it's like you guys have lost the plot over the last decade and he's been president twice, tried to kill him. he's back and still like you're doubling tripling down on this this failed sort of strategy from a media perspective.
(1:03:27) I always say if you're in a adversarial relationship, you know, you escalate proportionally and you start start out friendly, where can we find common ground? Can we quash the beef? And then if you find out that the other person is just not acting in good faith over your series of communications, it becomes time to just defeat them.
(1:03:56) No more playing nice, no more negotiating. You just defeat them. And at some point along the way, I think, you know, he still got pretty decent treatment, uh, not good, but okay, tolerable treatment before he ran for president. And then when he ran for president, they wanted to capitalize on the ratings with Trump hate. And then it it just continued from there of just do everything we can to to tear him down.
(1:04:20) It reminds me of the movie Private Parts with Howard Stern, if you ever saw that. Mhm. When his producer Paul Giamatti uh runs in to the room and says, "Your ratings are off the charts. 40% of your audience loves you because they don't know what you're going to say next. 60% of your audience hates you because they don't know what you're going to say next.
(1:04:40) And so I think the mainstream media capitalize on the Trump hate uh for a number of years um and have just not adapted to the fact that like actually 60% doesn't hate him anymore. You know, actually a lot of people like you really see what he's doing and they love him. Um but they they just haven't been able to get out of that mindset. And I always say when it's garbage in, it's garbage out.
(1:05:02) If you're just filling your mind with information in this echo chamber that's like he's a Nazi and he's a threat to democracy and blah blah blah, it's going to be very hard for you to call balls and strikes and say this thing he did was good, this thing he did was bad. It's just everything is bad. Um, so I I'm glad it's too slow moving, but I'm glad to see the shift to alternative media and people being able to consume information in different ways from different sources because I think we've had and I think the reason he won this time was that people were able to
(1:05:35) see through the constant hysteria and actually look at individual things, policies that they care about. Um, I think that's been a a really important sea change. But there's still people out there who haven't gotten it, who haven't gotten the memo. I mean, I I talked with a a friend of mine recently, actually, who is like a mainstream media person, and at some point in the conversation, I said, "You still believe in the Charlottesville hoax, don't you?" And they're like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "Did you ever watch
(1:06:11) the comment?" Very fine people comment. And then watch the next sentence where he said, "And I'm not talking about the Nazis and the white supremacists. They should be condemned." Did you ever see that next sentence? They're like, "I don't know what you're talking about." So like again, I say garbage in, garbage out.
(1:06:31) Now there's a lot of better ingredients, more healthy information diet that people can have. And I think that was reflected in the uh electorate in 2024. Yeah. Exciting times. Exciting times. It's uh I feel fortunate to be in this share having conversations with people like you about Bitcoin and broader macroeconomic and political topics because it's uh never boring, never nothing to talk about and I think very important to talk about what we talked about today as it pertains to policy around Bitcoin, what's happening on the regulatory fronts and maybe um before we
(1:07:12) wrap up, that's one question I did want to ask you for um forgot to but want to take the opportunity to ask it before we hop off here. Chevron doctrine. I feel like that that ruling got overturned and it's sort of a lowhanging fruit that people should be taking advantage of maybe aren't to the fullest extent.
(1:07:37) Is there anything there you think whether it's the Bitcoin industry or any other industry should be taking advantage of as it pertains to the Chevron doctrine and sort of suing regulators that are making laws that that then it goes through the House and the Senate. you know, I've become a little bit more or a lot bit more um plugged into energy policy in this role and so I think there's probably more to come on that front.
(1:08:09) Now, against this administration, you may not need as many lawsuits. You can get policy changes in the friendly way. We we saw uh administrator Zeldon at the EPA uh re-examining the uh the doctrine that kind of established the climate change agenda. Um looking at CO2 as a as a harmful emission. Um so that's one example where there may not be as many lawsuits required uh at this time.
(1:08:38) You may be able to actually just ask for policy changes and they may agree with you. Um, I would say just more broadly in terms of Chevron and then there's a couple other issues that I think we're working on that are not Chevron related, but um or could be, but uh I think there's there's tax issues. um the banking regulators um you know I I think Chevron and related case law could have been used to challenge things like choke point uh because you were having regulation by press release and not uh you know on on behalf of experts. Um, so you those
(1:09:21) actually I think you could get you could have won on procedural or constitutional grounds independent of Chevron, but Chevron would have helped with those. But now with Trump's executive order and the new uh regulators in place, they were able to just remove the choke point guidances and regulations without the lawsuit.
(1:09:44) um on tax stuff. Uh you know, maybe kind of a similar posture that Congress hasn't weighed in yet on how to tax mind Bitcoin. The SEC, CFTC agreed that it's a commodity. The IRS hasn't gotten that memo. It's not taxed at the point of sale. It's taxed at the point that you mine it and then it's taxed again when you sell it.
(1:10:10) So like changing guidance like that. I mean you could potentially use a probably not chevron but a a litigation strategy to get that changed but I think now we're hopeful that there would be just a policy change by the people in power. So you don't necessarily need the lawsuit. Um so that that's kind of a long answer with a few anecdotes in it.
(1:10:33) Point being, I think with this administration, they have an open door to industries who are like, "You said you want us to thrive in the US. Here's something you could do to help us thrive." And they're like, "Oh, good point. We can do that." So, you don't have to sue them under Chevron. I I think you'd see a lot more litigation activity under it had Kla Harris won because they would have wanted to preserve that administrative state strength um and had more decisions like the one that was litigated in Chevron or
(1:11:04) like that was um or some of the healthc care cases in terms of benefits and religious organizations. There's a lot of different threads of litigation that I think would have been more active had the election outcome been different. So, um, but if there's anything in particular you're thinking of, happy to talk about it.
(1:11:24) I I just think that's the explanation for why there hasn't been more because the administration has thrown open their doors and said, "Tell us what you think." And when I worked at Treasury, that's a stark contrast because when I worked at Treasury and would take industry meetings, the first thing people would say was, "Thank you for listening and thank you for meeting with us.
(1:11:43) " Because the Obama administration wouldn't even take our calls. They wouldn't respond to our emails. They would only invite in like professors and think tanks and NOS's. They wouldn't listen to people actually doing business. They wouldn't even let them in the door. So, thank you for allowing us in to share our concerns. So, um just an anecdote, of course, but that I think illustrates what we're dealing with now and why there isn't more litigation.
(1:12:12) That makes a lot of sense. And my my questions pertain to that tax issue because that was brought up yesterday too. That tax issue is extremely burdensome um as you know being a riot. But um Brian, thank you for all the work that you do and for coming on on the show. Like I said, it's exciting times and I think I really want to make that clear to the audience.
(1:12:36) You know, there's people individuals like Brian having Sam and Tyler in the Treasury Department like they're are very hardcore Bitcoiners, very close to policy makers. And I my the 12 years in Bitcoin, I've never been more optimistic about a political or presidential administration actually having good information sources as it pertains to Bitcoin um in their ear.
(1:13:05) So, thank you for all the work that you do both at Riot, the Bitcoin Voter Project. I know there's a lot of crosspollination between all the Bitcoin focused think tanks down there in DC. And so I think all the work that you're doing for the longest time I was a fade the government don't interact with them just go anarchco capitalist but I think as I've gotten older had children building businesses you may not care about political power political power cares about you and with that in mind you need people who actually understand Bitcoin
(1:13:35) the industry the potential it provides individuals in the country at large in these positions and I am just extremely impressed with all the work the multiple individuals in DC like yourself have been doing to to really push the ball forward. I appreciate that's very very kind of you.
(1:13:57) Um yeah, Riot has been greatly supportive and I think they had a similar view to what yours was when they hired me, which was we're not government people, we're Bitcoiners, what do we care? And then when various government entities started coming after them, they realized, oh, I guess we have to care. Um, and the great news is that it's gone from defending ourselves to going on offense and racking up wins.
(1:14:22) And so, you know, we have the Bitcoin Voter Project. We have I'm on the board of the Texas Blockchain Council, Executive Committee, the Digital Chamber, like all these different avenues. We're moving things forward in a positive direction now. uh and it's going to make we we're building this kind of foundation and and fortress uh that's going to be much harder to penetrate.
(1:14:43) Whereas prior um we were kind of low hanging fruit to attack. And I hate this metaphor, but it is pretty good. Uh is if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And now we're very much at the table. We're, you know, maybe not the head of the table, but we're definitely there. uh and uh and racking up wins.
(1:15:06) So, thank you for the kind words. I appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation to come on. Uh this is really fun and uh let's do it again sometime. We definitely should do it again sometime. See you in DC in June. Maybe at BPI's event. Yes, we'll see you there. I'll see you in DC. Ryan, that's all we got. Peace and love, Freaks.
(1:15:25) Freaks, thank you for listening to the show. I hope you liked it. If you did like it, please make sure you subscribe, rate, review the show. It helps us out a lot. And also, if you like these conversations, I've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast. They don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company.
(1:15:44) We have the newsletter, the Bitcoin Brief, go to tftc.io. Make sure you subscribe there. A lot of the topics that are discussed on this podcast I write about five days a week in the newsletter. We also have the TFTC elite tier. If you sign up for that, become a member. We have a private Discord server for the elite freaks out there where we're dropping adree versions of this show and having discussions about everything we talk about a day early.
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