NVK: The State Is Farming You
Transcript — TFTC
Article: https://www.tftc.io/nvk-state-farming-you-arca-ai-bitcoin
Transcript page: https://www.tftc.io/nvk-state-farming-you-arca-ai-bitcoin-transcript
Published: 2026-08-05
Machine transcription, lightly cleaned; may contain errors.
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[0:00] Marty Bent: Bitcoin Twitter is is truly gay now.

[0:03] NVK: I don't know what's happening, man, with with like the I mean, you know, listen, bear markets are always, you know, a little a little rainbow, right? But the this this one is just unbelievable. Like there's no memes anymore. There was no memes on the pump, that's why we didn't have a proper pump. You know, I I already found the laser eye to be a horrible rainbow meme. but but like seriously, like It was better than nothing. This this year is just nothing. Like, you know, the there is people don't have fun anymore there. I think just a lot of people just just got bored, left.

[1:09] Marty Bent: Does that mean we've lost our way?

[1:12] NVK: No, it's just that you know, like you you can only be counterculture when you are counter to the culture, right? When the culture catches up with you, you're no longer counterculture. Doesn't matter how like how edgy you wanna dress, you know, like how orange your tie is or you know, like it it doesn't matter. Like I mean we're no longer counterculture. It really is that simple.

[1:33] Marty Bent: But has the broader culture gotten on board with Bitcoin? I don't think so. I think we're in this weird period everybody's bored and everybody's worried that nobody else is gonna care about Bitcoin.

[1:41] NVK: I think it's because like fee like okay. You know, here's my unifying theory of markets right now. It's the but it's retard maxing it, right? So the problem right now is that like America like just became absolutely incredibly productive again. Right? Like it's insanely productive. Like I've never seen like Americans already are the only country in the world where people work. Right? Like, no, seriously. Like you you people cannot comprehend like the difference between like, you know, even the laziest place in America versus, you know, the most productive place in like say Europe or whatever. Right. Like, you know, Americans work to begin with, right?

[3:55] Marty Bent: Fact. I'm having so much fun. I know you are too.

[3:59] NVK: It's it's so much fun. Like you know, it's never be like this great. Like you can just build shit, you know what I mean? Like all the code you didn't wanna write, you can have the bots do it for you.

[4:11] Marty Bent: Well that was the last time you were on we were talking about what was your project that gave you access to LLM's what the hell was it called? It was back in the chatbot era of like a year and a half ago. Unleash dot chat. Like to think of how far we've come since that is insane.

[4:20] NVK: unleash that chat. Yeah. It's insane. You know, like i i it it's like you can't like you you've been given a tool that makes you like be ten to a hundred X more productive like daily. Right, like it's it how can you not be bullish?

[4:46] Marty Bent: Well, I mean to that point, thank you for your your wiki project. I've been using that for my harness. Yeah.

[4:53] NVK: Dell Lem Wiki, yeah. It's it's a fun one. Like it's it's such a you know, I just keep on adding shit to it. You know, like it's it's just so useful.

[5:04] Marty Bent: So what is your what is your stack like these days? How are how are you using this stuff?

[5:09] NVK: so I made this website learntoprompt.org. that's sort of like that that's where I keep like my current stack sort of up to date publicly. so right now what I do is I have the the security stack for DellM stuff with the agent bondage and chain and all that stuff. so essentially I sandbox the The LLMs on my systems. and then I have a few other machines that they have a little bit more permission where you know they can do stuff. I'm not into the self-agentic stuff like Hermes or or OpenClaw. I I find that just costs me more time than it's worth. But

[5:59] Marty Bent: Really? 'Cause I feel like as a non developer, I I I find open claws way more intuitive to me.

[6:05] NVK: Yeah, no, I just I can't. They they produce just too much junk that I end up having to fix. I I think that's the main thing, it's like i if you if you if you're technical enough you can be a lot faster than people who aren't with the c agent coding agents, right? So but if you're not technical, it's nice to have that extra layer of the agents that then go and talk to the other agents to make the shit for you.

[6:34] Marty Bent: Yeah. Well that's actually another interesting thing about our setup. I mean I I tweeted out something about this yesterday that my whole form factor of how I interact with this stuff is purely voice attack. So I don't type, I don't go in the Claud or Codex desktop or C L I. But it's because we're using it to run TFT C and we actually don't code that much outside of like some presentations and

[6:46] NVK: Yeah. Yeah. Mean I've seen your tweets. Do your bots clearly understand like how to produce the graphics and how to do the stuff to to push it out. I mean, and and it's clearly getting engagement. So like, you know, you're doing something right. but but like you can't for some marketing things it's kind of doable. As soon as you cross the line into there's people using it, the bots just can't be left alone. They'll break shit and then people lose money. Yeah. Right now they're still like a hammer for us. They're not like a computer yet, you know? So we just we use them to bang things into shape and to do stuff and then we actually have to review the work.

[7:44] Marty Bent: Are you guys using are you using them for fuzz testing or or building?

[9:46] Marty Bent: That's what I was gonna say. When do think we we cross that threshold where you don't have to worry about it?

[9:50] NVK: I mean, if for the local stuff like DS4 Flash, okay, on an five one twenty eight or on GB tenvidia spark, right? Is already like the escape hatch from the dystopia, right? So if they tomorrow decided to like say you're not allowed to use codecs or or a claude code without like something that we just can't cross the line, I can already do Pretty much their level of code with DS4. The only problem is the speed. You know, it's like fucking five times slower. Right? And five times slower is a lot. But you know, like there is this convergence happening, right? Like where, you know, the people working in AI were sort of like ML academics and shitty dev and shivity devs, right?

[11:37] Marty Bent: What do you think? Do you think they'll always have the lead?

[11:40] NVK: yeah, absolutely. There is no, you know, there is you can't you know, they have the best researchers, right? Like they they have like incredible people. They may suck at code, but they have the best people. and they have all the money. Like, I mean, this is the only thing that holds China back is the fact that they they just don't have the compute. So they have to China.

[12:03] Marty Bent: Who's that? China. Okay.

[12:07] NVK: Yeah, it's the the only w reason why China is being held back is because they don't have the compute. So, you know, like so that's why they're being so creative and they're also open sourcing everything so that you know our smart people go help them. it's very clever. but you know, they they're gonna like this whole thing is just forcing them to spend all the money developing hardware. They already are moving. like much faster and much better at making high-end hardware, right? That like another max three years they're gonna have like you know like very comparable you know capabilities to make silicon.

[12:56] Marty Bent: Well, for for those who are listening and are new to the show since last time recorded with MBK, he's the founder. He's the founder of Coinkite, which makes hardware. so this is actually the perfect person to speak to in this regards of supply chain, what's going on there. We're gonna get to Arco, what you're building with this personal data haven, but to your point about hardware being a bottleneck now, what are you seeing? How is it affecting the supply chain for the hardware that you're building?

[13:03] NVK: We kind of started right there, didn't we? It's fine. I mean, like supply chains have like fully normalized post COVID, which is great. and they also became a lot more resilient now too, right? I mean, everybody learned a very hard lesson during COVID. so you know, it took a few years to truly, truly normalize. the main problem now is just memory is expensive, you know. So like and and like most most ICs, right, that that do anything interesting, they'll have some memory in them, right? so you know it costs more money. that's that's the only problem. for example for ARCA, you know, like it's like memory is gonna be a big part of the cost. You know, there is no way around that anymore. flash memory is what the everybody needs. That fast memory to put on stuff so that the bots can remember things.

[14:14] Marty Bent: Yeah. Well, let's let's get into it. I mean, Arca it looks like you're looking to build a data haven, which is an old internet idea, a place, jurisdiction or technical system built to keep data available and protected. ARCA borrows the useful part of that idea and makes it physical. A box you can choose in a place you trust for the secrets that should not disappear. This seems pretty cool. Like trust in a box. I saw you in a Who was going back and forth with you yesterday to to figure out a catchphrase to describe ARCA?

[14:57] NVK: there were a few people. Th there was a it was a fun little tread. yeah, I mean like this is this is kind of like So code card is is is sort of like how we got here, right? Like we we needed a place to store the Bitcoin seeds, operate them safely, you know, and do all that. A lot of lessons were learned. But the the issue is that there's still all the other secrets, right? And even though we put a password manager on on on code card Q, it's not enough. We're going towards a world now where the internet is no longer free and and and sort of protected from governments, right?

[17:02] NVK: The availability part is a huge part of the problem because you know servers are not safe, right? And and seeds bearing the backyard, you know, are not available. So what we try to create is sort of like the the solution for that problem. And I think I think we got it. Like, you know, this this machine is very secure. you know. It has some friction, right? So it's not like iCloud or something like that. It has friction. That friction is important because that friction keeps things safe. So it doesn't compromise that security for some extra UX. and is highly available, right? And how do you make a device be highly available and sort of solve some of the the the single point of failure problem, right?

[19:12] NVK: Whatever, so you can have a server for that. So you just point to that IP and bam, you have passwords in an actual secure place. You know, you're gonna have a place for your phone wallets to dump their seeds as backup. you know, we're gonna create a little protocol for that. you're gonna have a place to store SSH keys, you're gonna have a place for your agents to have access to some keys they can use. And sort of like that's that's the train there. We're just gonna keep on adding things to make ourselves like sovereign, you know, and and less physically vulnerable.

[19:52] Marty Bent: I love this. So let's let's take a step back and obviously it's still being built out. but can you explain what you envision the I like the UX? If somebody buys an Arca Box and gets delivered to their house, what do they do?

[20:07] NVK: So you yeah, so you it has a touch screen on the phone on the front. so you put your you go to your like little place where you put your router, right? you plug this box in. It has redundant power supply, so you can put like two power supplies on it. so in case you're away for a few months, even if it one dies, still there. So anyway, so you plug it in, you plug into your network, it shows your QR. with that QR. you're starting row process, right? And then bam, you have access to to essentially like a like a vault solution, very sort of simple, where you know you have like a place to store passwords, you have a place to to store secrets, you have a place to store seeds, you know, and you can also set up like we do a code card.

[21:52] Marty Bent: How long have you guys been working on this now? I know it's been in the works, but how long?

[21:56] NVK: So this is an interesting thing. It's like we've been wanting to make a secure network pro product device f for some of our personal needs for years, right? but then we had a conversation about I want to say six months, a year ago, where it just it just sort of like became clear, you know, what the product should look like and how it should be made. And then we let it simmer a little bit. And then we're like, it's like we have product meeting, like we have meetings every day, like not meetings, we have calls every day about stuff, products, things, and just review things, whatever, right?

[23:25] Marty Bent: I I feel like this is gonna be incredibly useful in the age of AI and thinking I mean just thinking of where my agent runs and what it has access to. Obviously it's a media company, the thing's too too sensitive. Everything we do is already public in a way. It's a lot of podcast transcripts, access to Dropbox with all that stuff. and basically read only you YouTube API and other API read only access, but sitting on a server in the cloud. It would make me feel much more comfortable if it was sitting on a server in my house.

[24:00] NVK: Yeah, I mean like you know you could so I created this thing that well I extended InvChain Extra. It's a repo on my you can look at my stack of the learn to prompt thing. so what it does is it injects keys from your key storage into the prompt. but you define which agent has access to a keys based on profiles. So theoretically, you know, you could do that. But what's really cool about ARCA is that we're taking this a step much further. So you can enroll new agent SSH keys. So essentially, you're just gonna give your agent an SSH key. And with that SSH key, that agent can access the keys, right, that it has access to, but also could use The ARCA as their SSH hop.

[25:49] Marty Bent: Yeah, it's a constant internal tension I feel wanting to leverage the tools to the the most of their abilities, but also trying to temper that with with only giving it things that I'm comfortable to have access to in the cloud specifically.

[26:07] NVK: Yep. Yep. It's yeah. It's it's like a brave new world, man. You know, it's and and I guess like the other big, big thing to me at least is that I really wanted a way to have a good dead man switch. So when I expire, you know, I can leave better. I already kinda have stuff like that, but it's not to the it's not to the to to To the extent that I want. I want a more powerful way of doing that. So, you know, we have we're gonna have a way for you to set, you know, a period of time and some conditions, right?

[27:49] Marty Bent: So they would need like your BIP thirty nine key to get access to the data.

[27:53] NVK: That's right. That's the that's the ultimate break glass is gonna be a BIP39 seed phrase for that user space. So you're gonna have multiple users there, then each user is essentially a tenant and that they can have it's like I mean we we had to we had to to build the The fortitude to go and port FreeBSD to the rock chip. So we had to port FreeBSD to a new chip, which was a lot of work. and that was integral to the project. It's like, can we run FreeBSD on an embedded system that we like? and then we added thrust zone chips to to to do some of the The heavy lifting on the security, you know, unto tamper stuff. It's like it's the kitchen sink of of security things.

[28:53] Marty Bent: and there's a redundancy aspect to this too, right? You can save across multiple devices.

[28:58] NVK: Yes. So you know we we're gonna probably sell this in bundles. People should have more than one. and then what they do is they just you know do a little dance, so they're gonna point like they're gonna say, Hey, you know, this other arca is my arca, and then there is a key exchange, and then bam, the machines sync each other automatically across any network over Tor, you know, in in in a few sort of like a few tunnels there. So like essentially like you can't break the the the data in transit there. And they only send each other encrypted data too. So so so the the cool thing is, you know, you put one in your house, you put it in your mother's house, you put one in s I don't know, another country or hosting place, right? And then like they're all just sink. And you don't have to worry about data availability, right?

[29:53] Marty Bent: Yeah. One goes down, you just fall back to the other. And are you doing two secure enclaves on this one too?

[29:57] NVK: That's right. Yes, so we're adding we're adding the code card stuff plus another thrust zone there too. we have secure clocks so that it works. We have you know solder down battery there for the clock. we have we have like active circuits there for that sort of measure tamper tampering to the box itself. I think we even added an accelerometer in case somebody moves the box, it just kills the keys. it's it's pretty intense. It's like it's like we went like it's like how far can we go, you know, and still become like be remain economically viable and simple enough so that it can be reproducibly built, right? Because that's the key. Like you can't it cannot be it has to be a sort of like a trustless device. It has like cold card, right? Like

[30:39] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[30:57] NVK: We don't want you to trust us. It's very important. Like we don't want to be the back door.

[31:04] Marty Bent: Yeah, and I feel like what are what are your thoughts on like the market for this? Okay, because I feel like the market for stuff like this is expanding with AI tools specifically, where previously getting deep into the weeds with a product that is involved like this was a mental headache for people. there's like a sort of a mental barrier to entry. But now with the agents, you can essentially Hadn't teach you how to use this stuff.

[31:35] NVK: I mean it's it's fairly easy. I mean so I've I've it like now when I make projects I tend to create also a skill file. And that's skill and I use the wiki, right? So I just go wiki, you know, research this project into this new topic. And then I go like wiki create a skill file for agents to understand this this project, right? And it's like and all of that takes like Five minutes? You know, like it's incredible. And then like bam, you have a skill file for the agents to understand what the fuck they need to do. It's not like that that's sort of like that chasm has been crossed. Like it it's you know, it's it's practically instant to get the agents to understand things.

[32:23] Marty Bent: Could you envision this becoming like an agent first use case? Like people don't even

[32:27] NVK: Sure. I mean, like, you know, I'll I'll probably have a couple boxes that are just for the agents. You know, the it's fine. I I think like the category for this is big, right? Because we never had access, like consumer access to secure compute, like network secure compute. Like that that's the thing, right? Like it's like no no like you can't go to Best Buy. Right. And buy a box that's secure that you put on your network. There's many boxes that claim to be secure, but they have no security, right? You know, you have your your NAS devices, right? So if you want to back up your pictures to your local network or whatever, but those things are just sort of like a Linux box running on, you know, some average like CPU and they have no security, no real security, right?

[34:36] Marty Bent: Well, I was just I was gonna say we were gonna see Arca Boxes and in Best Buy.

[34:40] NVK: Yeah, I mean like it'll be great. The brand is great.

[34:44] Marty Bent: How'd you come up with a name? I love the name.

[34:46] NVK: It's Arca, I forgot the the the the the the where the word is from again. I just I blinked it. But Arca is that it's like a box, a treasure box, historical treasure box where, you know, you keep, you know, the things that you need for the next sort of generation, right? there's the you know, and then there is like the Noah's Ark as well, right? That's where the animals were. you have like many instances of that word being sort of like the and variations of that word of like especially the the the secret safe space, you know, it's like it's the protected thing that you carry on, right? And and that's really what this box tried to do is just carry on, right? Phones die, computers die, you know, arcas will die, but because it's a is a data haven, you know, and ideally they're synced, backed up. Like the information never dies, right? we're we're really sort of like trying to index for that.

[35:52] Marty Bent: When can we expect to get access to that?

[35:56] NVK: hardware. So like we have we already have like prototype like boxes and stuff. We've we've we're started ordering K's tooling to make a production run. it's gonna be steel. Like it's a steel box. you know. And we we you know we're sort of we ordered now the

[35:58] Marty Bent: Ha ha ha

[36:25] NVK: The production test board. so I mean, you know, if if if stars align, we should be able to ship this here.

[36:36] Marty Bent: Hell yeah. A little Christmas gift? A little a little a little Black Friday Arca sale out of the gate?

[36:37] NVK: otherwise might my who knows. The problem is the margin of error is like three to four months. You know, so you know, it could be very fast or it could be an extra three to four months, right? but but it's moving, it's moving at a very fast pace. it's a lot of softer to write. but you know it's like building for free BSD is pure delight. Because you know it's it's the one true OS, you know, it's like it's Unix.

[37:07] Marty Bent: Why is that?

[37:13] NVK: Linux is not Unix. it's like FreeBSD is the real thing. You know, it's that's that's that's like the the hardcore version of Unix that survived the years. So when you make something very secure, like a a network secure thing, you normally use un you use FreeBSD or NetBSD or OpenBSD. the monolithic system is you know like very based, very few people work on it. You know, like the some some big entities normally help fund it. you know, there's like five guys that manage it. You know, it's it's it's very intense. but yeah, it was it had to be made.

[38:01] Marty Bent: Happy you're making

[38:03] NVK: It's exciting. It actually it's like it's a lot of fun and exciting.

[38:07] Marty Bent: You you always come up with new and creative ways to have fun building this hardware.

[38:12] NVK: Hagar is fun, man. Making stuff is awesome. you know, like it's like making things come into the real world. It's is it's a lot of fun.

[38:16] Marty Bent: That's Well that's what I mean to your point earlier about the US being hyper productive right now, that's been one of the more encouraging things to see is that is this reinvigoration of industrial building outside of compute, but you have that whole Segundo Valley and I think Texas as well. A lot of companies focusing on on physical infrastructure. Which is good to see.

[38:45] NVK: Yeah. It's it's fun.

[38:50] Marty Bent: Where do you where do you think everything goes from here? Let's bring this back to like AI and Bitcoin.

[38:56] NVK: I mean, like, you know, this is this is the convergence, right? Like of of sovereignty. It's like with AI, you don't need permission. I mean, aside from the frontier bullshit, if you haven't had a prompt flag yet, you're not building anything interesting. but like, you know, it it's like you don't need permission from people who make things anymore. You just go and you make your own thing, right? You can produce a lot of the things that you need permission otherwise. You know, and with Bitcoin you don't need permission to bank yourself or to you know or to exist. So these two things make it into a very you're a dangerous man. You can be an unreason the unreasonable man now have all the tools, you know.

[39:40] Marty Bent: Do you think they're gonna continue to allow us to have access to these tools? I think the literally a podcast that's being published as we're as we're talking here. That we recorded yesterday with Kyle Olney talking about the Fable Five what is it? export controls that government

[39:56] NVK: I call it the f the fumble five. I mean like entropic, like you know, those guys are assholes. Like, you know, like they're like horrible. They're horrible, you know, like open AI too, they're just horrible. Like, you know, I guess sometimes it just takes horrible people to make great things. you know, the guy was asking to be regulated. Well, now you got regulated, you know.

[40:04] Marty Bent: They're effective altruists.

[40:22] NVK: It's like why why do they do it's the same thing of like Coinbase and all those guys, you know, and Bitcoin asking the God, please regulate us, please regulate us, you know? Because they want to do stupid shit and not go to jail. I get it. But, you know, how about just don't do stupid shit, you know, and don't get regulated. I know it's hard, you know, to to forego your your hundred billion dollar exit on retail, but it's you know, it is what it is. I I just I'm still dumbfound that like Dario makes it like you have to be so bad to make Sam Altman look good. Like, holy fuck. You know, like I mean, wow, you truly cross a whole other like this is the orb guy, you remember? Like WorldCoin. You know, like you make worldcoin guy look good, you know.

[41:01] Marty Bent: Right. Mm-hmm. It's funny, Odell and I d Odell said the exact same thing on Monday. we were having a conversation. He's like, God damn it, Dario's making me like the world coin guy.

[41:28] NVK: It's just so so insane, right? but you know, this these guys are pushing frontier, you know, because like you need that capital, right? And only psychopaths are gonna get to that capital to do this. Like it there is very little else that can be done. I mean, look at Elon. I mean, Grox sucks. You know, like it truly sucks. you know, and yet the guy, you know, has like infinite capital, right? So, you know, those guys are doing something, but it's it's it's all a shame. Well the on the good side, I mean, like, you know, open open models, as long as China keeps on pumping them out open, you know, they're gonna they're gonna keep on catching up, right?

[43:14] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[43:22] NVK: over atrocious code bases, right? Like just imagine the crap that Coca-Cola runs. Like atrocious code, right? Like good good people don't go work for Coca-Cola as a technical person, right? Like maybe manufacturing, but like not at the whatever they do with code. You know? So like when you go as Coca-Cola and you, you know, get Mitos to go after your code base, of course it's gonna find some gaps. You know, these guys are all using Microsoft crap. so anyways, it's it's pretty fascinating. it it's it's all marketing, right? It's all pre-IPO marketing.

[44:03] Marty Bent: Yeah. And then going back to Dario's just being very hateable. It's like the marketing being all this fear mongering and begging for regulation. It's just it is dumbfounding how how they're approaching this. Like we're gonna take all your jobs,

[44:19] NVK: Why say that out loud? I mean, it's not not true. But just don't say it out loud, right? Like

[44:24] Marty Bent: Well, I've been going back and forth on this. Do you think it's not not true or do you think

[44:28] NVK: So I mean just think about it this way, right? Like when you have like technologies that like flip a large part of society upside down, right? Like, you know, the car, electricity, you know, like shipping boats, you know, just just stuff like the internet. You know, like it creates a lot of new jobs too. But I think the problem is this is the first time where the middle class gets truly fucked first. Right, because like it's all the Excel jockeys, the middle managers, you know, like the the junior lawyers, the you know, all the juniors of any white collar job, right? Like I mean, it's it's like I just look at from our side.

[46:44] Marty Bent: Mm-hmm.

[46:51] NVK: you know, and I made one for Wiki, and you can just do, you know, I just go on my chat and say, hey, do a research on this or that. Right? it's fantastic. I mean, just research. I mean, analysts essentially are gonna have no jobs. You know, like there is no reason to it's just insane. And it's just the the capacity that these models have or a mix of the models have to do research is just Absurd. And we haven't even started. We we we we are the flat bottom part of the S-curve.

[47:24] Marty Bent: You haven't even started. That's what I was just gonna say.

[47:31] NVK: You know, it's it hasn't started because we still haven't even had some decent breakthroughs, right? it's it's gonna be fun, man. but of some jobs will be lost. Well, on the other plus side, I mean, like a lot of people are gonna go back to being actually useful, right? Like instead of Excel jocking, go fucking build a house, go be a framer, go do other stuff that's more useful. You know, pay's better too. You know, a house framer makes more. than a dude that has to spend the money buying a suit, going to a Wall Street office on the back office. That's what people don't get. Like, you know, a lot of those jobs you see people wearing suits pay less than being a framer.

[48:16] Marty Bent: Yeah. I mean

[48:17] NVK: You know, like and they're in the sun with their buddies, you know, like having a great fucking time. I mean, not for people that work in the Midwest in the winter, but you know, it's just there there is opportunity now for you to also build your companies on the side, you know, build things. Like, you know, you you you don't have to be a dev to build things, maybe to build the hard things, but you can still build a lot.

[48:44] Marty Bent: Yeah. Well this is something we have a survey that we we include when you sign up for the newsletter and a lot of a lot of our demo is like from thirty five to fifty five. So like my age and up. And it's like one of the recurring themes of the surveys I'm looking to learn more about AI and more specifically how to use it. Like what would your advice be to people who are looking at this? They're like, I'm it's too late, it's passed me by, I can't get in, but I should probably try. Like where do where do you start?

[49:17] NVK: Well it's just like Bitcoin at sixty K, right? You it's still very early, it's still very cheap. You know, like go build something. Like it it's it's like they have free accounts. Like, you know, they're still very capable. Like just just build stuff. Like that's it. Like your imagination is your limit. I get anxiety now. Like anxiety I never had before. It's like I'm like I just stare at it, it's like I have the power of a thousand sons. You know what I mean? Like at the fingertips You know, every morning. It's like, what should I build today? You know, like what else can I build?

[50:21] Marty Bent: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just like get over the paralysis and start playing with it.

[50:33] NVK: Yeah. I mean what's hard is like, you know, what do I tell my kids now, right? Like it's I still you know, I still find that like hard STAM to be like useful, sort of like, you know, higher education sort of thing to go to, you know. You're interested in math, you're interested in physics, you're interested in like, you know, hardcore engineering, you know, those those PhDs or whatever, they'll take you long, like long way. Like you're you're cause you're gonna be you're gonna be the the high-end AI desk jockey. You know what I mean? Like you're gonna be Tony Stark, you know, like talking to the thing and sort of designing together like you know your space suit. the the problem is everything else. I mean, you know, it's You know, art is great, but like monetizing art is problem. you know, we need culture. we need culture and we need hard sciences, right? Everything else is like literally a waste of time and space.

[51:46] Marty Bent: I mean, it's may seem harsh, but

[51:50] NVK: I mean like i i I know it's harsh, but it's like it's it's it's it's the truth, you know.

[51:53] Marty Bent: I mean think of the the the the back office Excel jockey. I mean I was that guy at one point as an analyst and I hated it. I like physically was revolted by the process of sitting in a cube under a fluorescent light, pulling data from Bloomberg and synthesizing it and writing about it. It was like

[51:58] NVK: Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, like you had imagination, right, Marty? So like with your imagination you saw a different future for yourself, right? And you pursue that. You know, and eating a lot of ramen, you know, you sort of got somewhere. Right. So like I I think that this this future or this present really just favors those people now, 10x. Right? If you have the drive, you know, you you you you can you can you can really fucking go. Right. It's amazing. The the problem is like for the people that don't, you know, it's like if you're an incredible linguist, you know, like you you can like do research on how to do like better sort of like understanding of I don't know machine learning or whatever. But the reality is that for the other like 90 people in your classroom, you know, the AI can come up with like three new languages. You know, in three minutes. You know, and with like completely alien gramma grammar.

[53:16] Marty Bent: Well, I think we discussed this last time you were on. Because we're we we brought up our kids and like what what's their future gonna be like. And I think we got on the topic of agency. It's like is there just a a natural Pareto distribution of people who have it and people who don't? Or is there a way to sort of engender a a mentality of of high agency?

[53:35] NVK: No, like there is nothing wrong with like go be surf instructor. AI can't help with that. You know, a fantastic life, the prettiest babes, you know. It's like the beautiful ladies, great coconut water, you know, like super healthy life, like the happiest people. You know, like you can be part of the happiest people cohort.

[53:41] Marty Bent: No. How's he gonna say, you'll find some hot checks? It'll be it'll be fun.

[54:03] NVK: You know? and then you can have your your AI agents do your taxes, right? Like you can lower the cost of everything else around you. That's the other thing, too, is that like you know, as we enter this age of abundance, right? it's like the the cost of everything else also goes goes down, right? So you don't need to make as much to support yourself.

[54:09] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[54:32] NVK: You know, if you have responsibility and you know and understand scarcity and some other things, but like you know, if you're handy, like you don't have to hire people to come do shit in your house because you can go on chat GPT and ask, how do I fix this? Take a picture. You know, it literally t I was trying to wire a GFI wall plug, right? And I kept on getting it wrong, right? So then I just took a picture of Chat CPT, like picture picture, like you know, tell me how to fix this. You know.

[55:01] Marty Bent: Yeah, it's yeah.

[55:02] NVK: It was a reasonable answer and I fixed it, right? Like it it's it's like you know, that would have been, you know, like five hundred bucks visit from somebody, right? so I don't know, like it's just it's fascinating to be i in in a position now where you just you know you have access to you know the the power of a thousand sons, right? From your phone.

[55:28] Marty Bent: What are you I mean, you've brought up abundance. Do you think we get UBI?

[55:32] NVK: Yeah, you the problem with UBI, aside from the economic retardation of it, is is that like it's a so crushing yeah, I think he ends humanity. Like you know, animals need to do shit. Like it's like I just tweeted recently about like, you know, there is no retirement in nature.

[55:57] Marty Bent: Yeah, I I saw that tweet.

[55:58] NVK: You know, like it's like animals don't retire, like they don't stop getting bananas because otherwise they starve, right? so like once you stop doing stuff for resources, and it has to be stuff for resources, right? that's why I don't like like full time philanthropy either. Like it's like, you know, you need to do stuff that has some sense of scarcity and some sense of market. so you're plugged in into reality. so like you if you if you stop you perish or your brain rots. Like you it's just not good, right? Even if you're a guy who you know, I don't know, hits the gym with that spare time, it doesn't matter. Like you you need that drive, you need a little bit of the competition for that banana. I think is very important. And if you if you do UBI, you just crush the soul of all these people. Like it's like they no longer have to do something.

[56:59] Marty Bent: I mean you can argue that we already see the effects of that with the welfare state as it exists.

[57:05] NVK: yeah. I mean it's like all those people in the little scooters, right? Like they're like gigant the Walmart people, you know, like the meme. You know, it's like you have these gigantic people in the little scooters, right? They don't even have to walk anymore. and and it's just like a snowball of health and mental health, right? it's not it's not good. So I don't even think we have civil wars anymore in in like Western countries because people are just like

[57:12] Marty Bent: Mm-hmm.

[57:34] NVK: fat and tired and just, you know, go in their basements, eat pizza pizza and porn.

[57:39] Marty Bent: Well, it's like if the UK doesn't have a civil war after what was laid bare yesterday, I don't know. You don't think they will? I think

[57:43] NVK: They won't. It it's hard to explain like to a non-American how balless society is. Like it it all it like dude, like most countries don't even have like proper self defense laws. Like you're not allowed to defend yourself properly in most countries. Like, you know, while in Indiana, you know, if a cop enters your house You have the right of self defense. Like, you know, this is unimaginable to the mind outside of America, right? and and it's progressively getting worse. you know, one could argue that the Second Amendment really keeps that going. But anyways, it it's it's it's like fascinating how how like, you know, I I don't think there's gonna be anything really. it doesn't go anywhere.

[58:41] Marty Bent: Well then these countries are fucked. They're kinda slipping to dystopian hell.

[58:44] NVK: Yeah, that's where we are. We are there. Like no no Mark. We're not gonna be fucked. We are fucked. Like it it's like look at what happened in COVID.

[58:54] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[58:55] NVK: You know, like Canada literally like closed everything, you know, truckers go to jail, you know, like all this stuff. And people still think that, you know, truckers should be in jail. Seventy percent of the population of Canada think that.

[59:09] Marty Bent: Yeah, it's insane. Well, like the UK too. Like it's so fucking disgusting how they rolled out the the I D mandates for

[59:17] NVK: I mean Australia is pretty dyst dystopian, but at least they have some jail DNA there. You know, like the original Australian people. You know, it's it's very jail. you know, that was Prison Island, right? So at least you got a few like knucklehead sort of like DNA there. but like the UK is just like soft hands, you know, like, and and I bet like a lot of the freedom-loving people just leave, right? You go to like remote places, it's a lot of like base British people that no longer spend most of the year in in Britain. Right? I I I still have some faith in the Irish, you know. They they still they still like a little bit of a little bit of like a nice fight. so who knows what happens there. But I think the wrath of the UK is is pretty it's pretty gone.

[1:00:12] Marty Bent: There's still there's still a generation or two of Irish that remember the last civil war they had, so

[1:00:17] NVK: That's right. I mean, you know, they had a nice late late what was it, the eighties, nineties? Yeah, you know, Sunday, bloody Sunday, right? yeah, I mean it's I I think that this is the biggest issue, is just that like you no longer have critical mass in most western countries to pose a cultural pushback.

[1:00:22] Marty Bent: Eighties, nineties, yeah, I think so. think so? You don't think reform Britain has a chance?

[1:00:44] NVK: Yeah. No. No. No. It's just it's just it's just it's just it's like it's it's gone. Like it it really is. Like it's like Canada's gone. You know, can you fix this country? Sure. It's gonna take two generations of like extremely based, super self-responsibility governments, but they'll never get elected. You know, and you need two solid sort of generations of that. to recoup what they did in fifteen years.

[1:01:18] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:01:19] NVK: It's just not worth it. Like I if I have to stare a young person in the eye and say, go fix your country, no, fuck that. Go find a better place to live. This is not your mass.

[1:01:28] Marty Bent: Well if you well if you run, there there's nowhere else to explore on this world, you know.

[1:01:33] NVK: There is. There's plenty of places where people are free and things are good and you know, and people are more reasonable. I mean, dude, like one I think one million Canadians moved to America in the last like five years. Like Canada has if you remove all the all the East Asians that came to Canada, which was about four million people, in a country in

[1:01:59] Marty Bent: I mean those those immigration charts are astounding.

[1:02:01] NVK: It's insane, right? So, but like, you know, Canada had forty million people, it became forty-four million people. And if you remove one million people of like, you know, super productive middle class, upper middle class people who laughed, so engineer like the top people, right? They all laughed. Like, how many people are laughed to to like have the counter revolution of just just ideas, right?

[1:02:28] Marty Bent: You have you have hope for a an Albertan secession?

[1:02:33] NVK: It's not gonna happen. I mean, I love those boys. I I I would 100% move everything Canadian I have to there. I, you know, support, you know, I think they should be a country. Canada should not be this big, should be a few different countries, it'll be better for everybody. But the problem is like half of Albertans, like actually no, 70% of Albertans full comming.

[1:02:59] Marty Bent: Seventy percent? Jesus.

[1:03:00] NVK: Yeah, full commie. Like like you go to the bigger cities, that's like it's full commune, but that's what most people are. You know, like you can't like you talk to a Calgarian, like your average Calgarian, like it's full on like commie. Like, you know, yeah, public schools, yeah, public, you know, like a public healthcare system, you know, all this stuff. It's horrible. Doesn't work, but it doesn't matter, right? That people have too much fear of freedom.

[1:03:30] Marty Bent: Don't fear freedom freaks.

[1:03:32] NVK: You know, and and you can have a you can have totally a hybrid system at least, you know, like go drill baby drill and pay for all the communism with like oil money.

[1:03:44] Marty Bent: Yeah, you could, but is who's actually gonna drill when you could just take out the communist take take, you know?

[1:03:47] NVK: Yeah, but that's the problem. It's like, you know, that's right. Just not not much you can do.

[1:03:53] Marty Bent: What do you think happens with Bitcoin moving forward? Are we in a typical four year cycle right now?

[1:04:00] NVK: Yeah, man. You know, it's you know, the the oxygen was sucked out of it. You know, I I still think Sailor took it too far with the dilution of the common and he killed the vibe. and No no, I mean listen, again, like, you know, if I was in his position, which I I I wouldn't be because, you know, I'm I'm not it's not my thing, but like, you know.

[1:04:15] Marty Bent: There's a lot of people who think he's doing a good job. A lot of people think he's gone crazy.

[1:04:27] NVK: It makes complete sense, you know. Like he's he's thinking long term, he wanted to stack the most amount of sats at the expense of anything else, right? But I think killing like too many Bitcoiners were overexposed to the common, and that killed the vibe. I think we could have had a market that would have gone to 250 or more in that pump, but it didn't. So so yeah, now we now we just wait for the cycle to re to to restart, right? there is just too many other things that are gonna give you like, you know, multi x returns, right? Which is what people want.

[1:05:08] Marty Bent: What your thoughts on the state of Bitcoin tech beyond the hardware? You happy with?

[1:05:15] NVK: Yeah, I mean it's not missing anything really. I mean, you know, exchanges work. you know, if you want to pay on chain works. If you want to stack sats on your code card works. you know, it's not hard to pass on a seed phrase, you know, to a family member. I I think it's just there's just too many sort of like people who want to build something that came into Bitcoin. as the as the shit coins were being sort of alienated the last cycle. And people just find problems where they aren't. Like you know, like listen, like creating solutions for grandma to use Bitcoin is retarded. You know, like be a good grandchild and hold the bitcoins for grandma. You know, like you the grandma doesn't need the harder wallet. Like it's it's idiotic, right?

[1:06:12] Marty Bent: What do you think is most what do you think is most needed right now? Payment stuff or

[1:06:16] NVK: Think we I I don't think we need anything. I think we just need time now. We we have everything we need, you know. I mean, I would love more KYC free exchanges and bullshit free stuff, you know. Like the unfortunately the interface layers are are paying the ass. But like everything works, right? So, you know, it's nice to be able to pay in Bitcoin. So, like, I love the fact that like block is going out there and pushing Bitcoin retailers, right? Because that Like gives you a lot of privacy. but you know, I I think these things are gonna be a doozy for most people because like these are not the things that drive Bitcoin, Bitcoin is a store of value, right?

[1:07:18] Marty Bent: Ha ha Yeah. People are lazy. They don't want the freedom. They're afraid of it.

[1:07:39] NVK: No, it's just that they they they you know, you have two generations of people who who overextended themselves on credit, right? Like because they were taught that, you know, money's free. it's okay, Bitcoin fixes all this, just takes time.

[1:07:54] Marty Bent: Takes time. And that's that's been the fun thing to watch is people have gone crazy this cycle. I mean people are going absolutely insane and it's I don't know.

[1:07:59] NVK: Absolutely. Batshit, right? It's it's it's a weird vibe. It's a really weird vibe. It's like you got the people who are bored, the people who have no idea what they're talking about, you know. And it's like and they converged into being the biggest voices of Twitter.

[1:08:19] Marty Bent: Yeah. That's why I don't know. I I think but if you get beyond the noise and you look at like what Cali and the the other developers are doing with Cashew, you look at what's happening with the Arc protocols.

[1:08:35] NVK: It's moving, right? I mean, listen, you know, we need we need like sovereign financial tools, right? Because people want the casino, people want credit, people want, you know, Forex, people want, you know, hedges, people want those things. And, you know, EF still the place where you can get those things without, you know, KYC or without like, you know, permission ish.

[1:08:37] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:09:03] NVK: But no, the the stable coins work. I mean they're great, right? Like you know, it's I I'd be I'd be a liar if I say that that's not useful. But it doesn't matter if that's on Onif, Solana, Tron, or whatever fucking other shit coin it is. and you know, there's people trying to bring that to Bitcoin. I mean It's like it's hard to know how much value is in that since there is it's already working. I think this is one of the reasons why like Tether, for example, even though they're very base Bitcoiners, they you know, they do the volumes that they do in these other networks is because, you know, that's it's cheaper to be in centralized networks.

[1:09:44] Marty Bent: Yeah. I mean I know the arcade guys in their arc protocol trying to bring like covenant stuff and I think stable coins as well. So it'll be interesting to see if they can do it. Like maybe that is what Bitcoin needed, this V VTXO model to enable all this Ethereum like stuff on a second layer. But again, the people are absolutely insane right now on Bitcoin Twitter. Everybody's bored knife fighting each other. It's like everybody just take a step back and I think I think it's a lot of people came in like

[1:09:48] NVK: It's cool. Yeah. my god, it's it's just horrible. That's right. Yes.

[1:10:13] Marty Bent: twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, and this is the first real bear market. Like do you remember you remember how bad things were in like twenty fifteen? Like that's that's where the sentiment is now in my mind, is how low it was the summer twenty fifteen.

[1:10:26] NVK: Yeah, I mean like I I miss the the wallet wars, you know, just like yelling at people on Twitter and just fighting each other over like the brand of secure element you have and shit like that. Now it's just like complete idiocracy, you know, like it's just there is nothing there to talk about, like to to argue about, you know. You know, and Jesus Christ. No, it's like you know, like I understand like why they hate

[1:10:47] Marty Bent: Bip one ten. Bip one ten, are you running your name?

[1:10:55] NVK: You know, the the dick butts on chain. Like it it makes sense, you know, like but it's just you know, y nobody cares. You know, you have a small amount of people there that care and cares deeply about it and understand they care about it. But like the rest of the market doesn't give a fuck. Right? and it's the same for core too. You know, the core side is also like, you know, idiotic too, like, you know, pushing stupid changes and sort of like, you know, working on stuff that doesn't matter. You know, it's just we arrive at a point where nothing needs to be changed and we're gonna be fine. I'm still running core nineteen. It works great.

[1:11:35] Marty Bent: Yeah, like how much do we need? How much more do we need?

[1:11:39] NVK: Exactly, right? But it's very hard to explain to an engineer he should stop engineering, right? Like just you know, we're fine. But you know, the normally the best way to solve all these problems is for people to just fork and then find out if they have a market with them or not. You know, and then we enter this sort of complete like cancel culture sort of vibe now too on on X. It's so game. Like you know, like you know, like NVK doesn't like Bib Ten. Cancel Cold Card. Or like, NVK doesn't like core. You know, like it's just like, man, like wow, like who cares? Nobody cares. My customers don't care. You know, like it's just so weird.

[1:12:03] Marty Bent: Yeah, it's like it's like it's okay. Yeah. is yeah, I think there's something existential out there where people are like, I wanna contribute and that's not to say that and again, like when it comes to BIP one ten, I think I very much align with your perspective on it. Which is like, yeah, I I see the dick bucks are dick butt arguments. I'd prefer there not to be, but it's like, are you gonna really fork and make all these changes?

[1:12:50] NVK: There's a lot of good people on that side. Like, like a lot of good people. You know, like it's same, yeah, exactly. There's good people. Most people on both sides are good people. You know, the the problem is like there is no technical solution for these two sides to meet, and there is also no to technical solution for these people to diverge. They're stuck together, and there's nothing they can do.

[1:12:55] Marty Bent: There are good people on both sides. Very good people. Yeah.

[1:13:19] NVK: You know, it's it's like like what an impasse, Like, you know, you and this is what Bitcoin is about. You're stuck with your enemies and your friends. Like that's that's the whole fucking point of the system, right?

[1:13:34] Marty Bent: And this will all this will all pass w if the price starts going back up. People will quickly forget about all this bullshit.

[1:13:39] NVK: yeah, I mean as soon as people are talking about Lambos again, right? Like it it's like it goes away magically, somehow, you know, everybody moves on. A lot of people are underwater. Like from the more normie sort of Bitcoin finance side, they're all underwater on MSTR, you know, because they bought MST MSTR post split. You know, and then and then you have People on the other side, sort of like on the more nerdy side, all in the water, because you know, like we're Bitcoiners and and we have one access, and when the asset goes down, well, I am half as wealthy now. well. I have to wait four years.

[1:14:17] Marty Bent: True. Yeah, you have to you have to embrace the poverty.

[1:14:25] NVK: You know, like it's really funny, right? Like we've been in this side we've been in this for so long now. Like my wife just like completely does not give a fuck. It's just like, okay, whatever. It's like doesn't even like does does not register, you know. Like it's like, can I do the things I need to do? Great. Y you know, like thankfully I'm very grateful, I'm no longer in a position where it's like, you know, I have to cut back too much. But like you know, it's like it's it truly is like the reality of of the of the Bitcoin maxi sort of thing. It's like, you know, and all the stocks I own are also fully directionally aligned with Bitcoin too. So it's like, you know, well Bitcoin's now well. Now wait.

[1:15:11] Marty Bent: And it's four years isn't a long time. You know, you just wait, you get you put your head down, you get some work done, you bring your head back up and you party.

[1:15:18] NVK: Yeah. It's it's really funny. The other day I took the I took the boys. I had to go to safe deposit box to get some documents. And you know, there is like some like tiny little bits of gold there, right? and so like I show the boys like you see this, this is daddy's biggest mistake.

[1:15:38] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:15:40] NVK: So when I bought those pieces of gold, I allocated, you know, like some to Bitcoin and some to that. It's like there is no comparison in the returns that each provided. I'm not gonna dox the dates, but like I kept it just so I could show to my children one day that this is a mistake. do not fall for the shiny metal. You know, it's it's kind of fascinating. Like, you know, what a like what world we live in, right? That the magic internet money was going to outpace, you know, the the yellow pet rock.

[1:16:21] Marty Bent: Well, I mean, I think that's a very important context to bring up too. We're still only seventeen years into this. It's still so early.

[1:16:29] NVK: I mean, like, you know, what I find fascinating though is so gold had, you know, its 5,000-year run, right? Before that was salt, whatever. And Fiat was so smart. Like the level of intelligence that Fiat people had versus the poor gold bugs is like incredible, right? Because Fiat managed to displace gold in like just half a century. Like fully, fully, fully obliterate. Like, you know, the fiat market is now what four hundred, five hundred trillion dollars. I mean, with the AI companies, it's probably a quadrillion now. I kind of lost track. You know, like they just keep on adding zeros. I don't know where the zeros come from, but they clearly come from somewhere. The number gets bigger. But let's go with 400 trillion, right? Or whatever. Like if gold is accounted in debt or not, gold's still only what twenty.

[1:17:16] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:17:28] NVK: trillion dollar market or whatever.

[1:17:30] Marty Bent: What is gold? Let me check. Bitcoin is Bitcoin is four point three percent of the gold market cap. Bitcoin's one point three. so let's multiply that by twenty five. Yeah, it's around thirty trillion, I guess.

[1:17:45] NVK: Gold is still ten trillion. thirty three then. So like gold like managed to be a hundred X less than Fiat. Right to do the math, right? like how insane is it, right? That some people can just come meet in some island, right? And then go, like, fuck yeah, let's do this. Yeah, bro. Do it, sand it. And it happened like pretty sort of also decentralized, too, right? Like, you had like different emergences, like like Fiat emerged, right, from different places, too. There's no like one single, like unifying conspiracy.

[1:17:56] Marty Bent: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or ten X, ten X less.

[1:18:24] NVK: and you know, it's like they did it. You know, like you gotta give it to them, they fucking did it. And if you think they're gonna just let it go, you're tripping.

[1:18:37] Marty Bent: Yeah, we're in open air we're in open air tax slave or debt slavery now. thanks to these people.

[1:18:42] NVK: Yeah, no, totally. I mean that's what it is, right? We're all debt cow like we're all like s tax cows, right? so that they can, you know, go play the the pony in the stock market. It's amazing.

[1:18:54] Marty Bent: I they can tax council are just milking us, giving our tax dollars to Somali immigrants, to Russian immigrants, to Indian immigrants who are on the take.

[1:19:04] NVK: I mean, how else are are Ukrainians gonna buy yachts for their monoco appearance for the Formula One, right? Like I mean Marty, it's very expensive and it's very expensive to maintain too. That's what people don't get. It's like you know, it's like ten percent a year to maintain some of those things.

[1:19:22] Marty Bent: So you s you better get back to work if you're listening to this. The

[1:19:27] NVK: Right. Those yet' of other people have are not gonna pay for themselves.

[1:19:29] Marty Bent: The debt farmers the debt farmers need your tax dollars. Get back to being productive, please.

[1:19:34] NVK: Yes. I mean it it is insane, right, that we don't have a like a like a a salary tax, like an income tax revolt.

[1:19:43] Marty Bent: Yeah. I mean when you consider what it was originally supposed to be, what it is now, and what the founding fathers of this country it was temporary, it was for the rich, it was one percent. Now it's

[1:19:50] NVK: So it's temporary. I mean, I count on America. America is the only place on Earth that I I think has a chance of like revolting over some of this stuff. like really, like, because you know, you guys are the only place on earth left that has proper anti-tyranny on paper, you know, and you can kind of somewhat sort of navigate that still. I think there's what, like, three places in the world still left with like official 2A sort of style you know, self defense, it not just self-defense, the anti tyranny defense.

[1:20:33] Marty Bent: The US, Switzerland in there?

[1:20:35] NVK: Yeah, I think like Czech Republic has something, but it's not that simple, you know. And I think none of them like really have anything written about you can like, you know, revolt against the tyrannical government. It's more just for like, you know, you know, shoot the invaders or something else, right? It's not this overt.

[1:20:54] Marty Bent: Yeah. The problem I could see us running into is that the commies just define their their opposition as tyrannical and try to go after it. But they're also not well equipped.

[1:21:05] NVK: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's no. it's it's interesting, right? Like democracy does feel like it's in its last legs too, right? In terms of like but but my fear is that the next thing is gonna be more calmy.

[1:21:22] Marty Bent: Yeah. Well that's why we need Bitcoin to win. We need open source to win. Because

[1:21:28] NVK: You know, the democracy is very is very sort of like doable as the the system for the next f no, for the next few years, as long as like they don't have central banking. Like democracy without central banking is very palatable. You know, they can't just like asymmetrically do their shit.

[1:21:33] Marty Bent: Doesn't scare. Yeah. Well if you have a democratic republic, it's relatively distributed and you have a true sort of if you have a true restrictions on the expansion of the purse, then yes, but

[1:21:53] NVK: You know, like You know, when they invented this whole democracy thing, you know, like you had to be a landowner, right? So you can't just fuck it up and then move. you know, y it was a draw to see who were going to be the politicians, right? Because nobody wants to. You know? And and you know, like it was only people who who were kind of like kind of aligned, right? you know, it was like at that time it was the same gender, same same DNA pool, whatever, right? But the the point being is that like some of the systems are just too efficient, right?

[1:23:14] Marty Bent: Notwithstanding, if we if we change our minds we can change it pretty good.

[1:23:16] NVK: Yeah. that was Quebec's non negotiable for joining the the party. who knows, maybe they separate I still think that it was totally stolen. Was it fifty one percent decided to stay? How convenient.

[1:23:33] Marty Bent: Yeah, it's it's all rigged. The LA the LA mayor race here in the US was definitely rigged.

[1:23:37] NVK: Yes. But the key is to not talk about politics. Not just fuck all this shit. Just go build. Go go harvest the the power of 10 cents, you know, on on your on your laptop. Go build stuff. Go ship stuff. They can't stop productivity. They try. But they can't stop productivity. You know, and if it's open source, they can't even tax that. It's incredible, right? Like you can't tax free shit.

[1:23:42] Marty Bent: That's true. Well Get out I love No, and I love this.

[1:24:07] NVK: They'll figure it out. Don't worry, they're gonna figure it out, but

[1:24:10] Marty Bent: No, they're not. I love this message. Get out there, build, outbuild tyranny. You have the ability to. You have the power of a thousand sons at the tip of your finger. But yeah, the this was great. Where can people if they're interested about getting updates on ARCA specifically, where should I send them?

[1:24:29] NVK: Arca Safes on Twitter, Arcasafes.com. It's on coinkite.com. yeah, follow there there is I think a subscription link there for you to put your email. We don't spam. but we'll let you know when it comes out. It's gonna probably be limited quantities. So you know if this if this is a problem you have, I highly recommend you know being attuned there because it will be

[1:24:32] Marty Bent: Dot com.

[1:24:58] NVK: Likely limited quantities the first batch.

[1:25:01] Marty Bent: How limited are we talking?

[1:25:03] NVK: Don't know yet. like we're gonna probably do the same sort of like a size build that we do with like new products in general. and then go from there. but it is a bigger device, so it takes a little longer to produce. There's a lot more like manual labor involved because it's a box. you know. Self-locking screws. The QA people are gonna love it. this one is dead. Wow. You're gonna have to drill it out. It's hard to convey to people like the nightmare that it is QA for security products.

[1:25:49] Marty Bent: Well you gotta do it right or don't do it at all.

[1:25:52] NVK: That's right. so yeah, you can find it there. You can find me as Viki on Twitter. Yeah.

[1:25:59] Marty Bent: Yeah, you're looking for a good laugh, trying to stay sane in the bear market, go follow MBK on Twitter. We're gonna link to all this in the show notes and let's not wait over a year to do this again. I say this every time you come on. I feel like we're at a like eighteen month recording cadence now, but this is a good catch up.

[1:26:19] NVK: Good stuff, Marty. Thanks for having me.

[1:26:21] Marty Bent: Alright, peace and love, freaks.