Jordi Visser: The $900 Trillion Unlock
Transcript — TFTC
Article: https://www.tftc.io/jordi-visser-900-trillion-tokenization-ai-agents-bitcoin
Transcript page: https://www.tftc.io/jordi-visser-900-trillion-tokenization-ai-agents-bitcoin-transcript
Published: 2026-09-24
Machine transcription, lightly cleaned; may contain errors.
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[0:07] Jordi Visser: You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. Let me talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

[0:31] Marty Bent: If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. Probably should be.

[0:35] Jordi Visser: Probably should be.

[0:36] Marty Bent: Yeah. No, another— so I'm not sure if you saw the Citrini post this morning, but it was somebody using Muse and they were on a Delta flight that got canceled on the tarmac and he immediately went, rebook this flight. And on top of that, go find how I can get reimbursed for this flight that just got canceled. Within minutes, he had a $250 credit. And the Citrini post was like, number one, you're insane to think that this is a bubble and this is going nowhere. Maybe there are bubbly parts, but there is true utility here. To say there's no use case is completely asinine. Then number two, all those pennies that consumers have left on the ground with that $250 credit, they're about to get picked up by the agents. And airlines being a perfect example, what happens when people start efficiently using their miles and— Taking advantage of the refunds that they can get.

[1:26] Jordi Visser: This is the beginning of the deflationary pressure on everything that we've talked about. As people realize that AI is deflationary, to get deflationary for the service side, you need AI agents because the agents make decisions based on efficiency. And the use of it is just— I mean, that description of what Citrina did, you have to think about all the frustrating times you've had waiting to then rebook something. You get in a line when you get off the plane and how long the line is and everyone's trying to get on one. And then you're trying to get a refund and you're trying to rebook things. All of this stuff will be handled. The frustrating part will be handled by agents, and that's already happening and it's happening now. So whether it's MetaMuse or whether it's Instinct AI, there's a reason why these things are having an impact now on the market.

[2:12] Marty Bent: Yeah. Well, like I was telling you, I took Muse for a spin this morning just to check it out. Tried to book Amtrak. Amtrak's a bot. No. But point being, it feels like the first— I sent it to my wife after playing with it for 10 minutes. I was like, okay, I don't have to set up a Hermes agent for you. This is the agent that you can use to coordinate our calendars, the boys' sports schedule, all that. Download it and play with it today.

[2:39] Jordi Visser: That's the reason why this has now entered a realm for me of time. Any speaking engagement I'm doing now, it all gets back to time. You have to think about OpenCLAW, which is a February thing in terms of adoption. Then you get into Hermès, then you get into GrokBot, then you get into, well, Astra and Claude can already do this and we're going to make it easier and we're going to embed all this into one. So if you used GrokBot, it's a completely different situation. You're using multiple agents to kind of run around and do tasks for you. So it's more like an autonomous workforce.

[4:19] Marty Bent: Yeah. No, it was this morning. Again, the problem with Amtrak, you were describing as a monopoly, it won't move, but the airlines have moved. But imagine when I can load it up with a Bitcoin wallet. You were going into your box, you have Bitcoiners, you have the programmable money, then you have the incumbents. I'm a Bitcoiner. And the beauty about the programmable part is if I want to use Bitcoin as my currency, the native digital currency, and I don't want to touch anything else, I can just give the agent a Bitcoin wallet. It's like, all right, go figure out how to convert to the preferred currency of the service provider or the other agent you're buying something from.

[5:12] Jordi Visser: And again, I think for people who don't see this, and trust me, someone who, when I speak about these things, I'll occasionally go see the comments and the posts, and people don't connect the agentic side to, let's say, the crypto guardrails and then kind of the impact it'll have on business. And it's surprising to me. But again, because I live in it 24 hours a day, meaning I'm monitoring how things are moving and I'm using the tools and yeah, oh, Muse is a thing. Let me go sign up for it.

[5:43] Marty Bent: Okay.

[5:43] Jordi Visser: Instinct AI. I talk about it one week, the amount of people reached out. And again, when Meta Muse is the number one downloaded app, okay, and the numbers are big, you start realizing, oh my God, the people who aren't paying attention to this— There's a million people that have already downloaded it. So it's like, this is going to grow incredibly rapidly, especially when you realize how much time it can save you. The money part will come second. And that's the thing I keep trying to make sure people understand. The money thing will come second, but this is where you have to start realizing, okay, how is crypto directly connected to agents? And that's where you have to go back. And that's why the stuff I'm talking about now is it was always made—

[6:28] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[6:29] Jordi Visser: For digital agents, because they're the only ones that can utilize the speed and they're the only ones who truly care about, why are we using Visa and MasterCard? Why are we doing any of this stuff? Why aren't we just going straight here, here, here? Let me negotiate. Let me go through it. They have the time to do it. And it's going to be agent to agent. The next thing people have to think about is how important cryptography is in this, how important your identity is in this. The ecosystem starts to grow rapidly once the agents start transacting, because then all the things that have ever been written about and talked about become more important. Because the ecosystem starts to grow in terms of volume and velocity, and the size of the ecosystem is going to grow rapidly over the next 12 months.

[7:06] Marty Bent: Yeah. 5% of people on the planet don't understand that. They hear AI, they think ChatGPT. They're like, okay, what's the usage looking like? When they think of usage, it's like, okay, downloading Muse, talking with Muse, using tokens to do that. They don't realize that the agent-to-agent token usage has gone exponential and far exceeds the human-to-LLM token usage. And that, that fact alone, I think, highlights the arbitrage that exists in the market. The fact that most people don't understand that fact is extremely powerful. It gets to something you've been talking about, For many weeks now, which is that we're climbing this wall where you have a ton of the layman, the public out there thinking that this is a bubble that's going to pop eventually.

[8:19] Jordi Visser: For anyone listening who falls into the camp of a worrier on AI, which is the majority of people, getting an expected value of an investment is about lining up all of the probabilities, outcomes, and the upside and downside of all of them. So is there a bubble aspect?

[8:45] Marty Bent: Of course.

[8:46] Jordi Visser: You could come up with a bunch of reasons. To me, they're all tail risks of things, but you're not going to stop the progress on AI. You can't. We're not going to pause it. That was stupid. Everyone's waiting. Just the reaction to the pause in AI from the most sophisticated investors in the world, and I get emails that day, well, we're going to be down big on Monday. I'm like, there'll be a knee-jerk reaction and it'll be an opportunity to buy. And here we are, whatever many days later, we're way through those levels.

[9:16] Marty Bent: Yes.

[9:16] Jordi Visser: Meaning we're way above where it was before that news came out. So for everyone listening who's worried, the expected value, if you break it into a binomial situation, let's assume, to use what I did in my video, there's a 90% chance we're headed towards abundance and there's a 10% chance that we're going to blow up and AI will never amount to anything.

[9:39] Marty Bent: Okay?

[9:40] Jordi Visser: In one scenario, you have a zero, 10% chance of a zero, and on the other side, you have a 90% chance. percent chance of something just shockingly good, the expected value is shockingly good then in terms of the combination of the two. Now, you can come up with all the different scenarios you want in between, but the reality is if you're worried about the 10%, if you're waiting for that story, the debt is too big, this and that, I can refute all of it. But the only thing you have to make sure that you realize, every day that the process gets bigger, consumer agents are different than enterprise agents.

[11:33] Marty Bent: no.

[11:33] Jordi Visser: John Gray from Blackstone gave a talk yesterday at his event. for 30 minutes. It's on YouTube. And he literally went through the 5 different ways that his companies, of which he has private, how they're all benefiting from AI in 5 different ways to increase their profitability, which is seeing their margins grow. And he's taking you through those scenarios. I just don't think people have really, really thought hard enough about the fact that there's a higher probability of a good outcome than a bad outcome.

[12:04] Marty Bent: And on the enterprise side, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I think we had a pretty big signal from the enterprise. It was last week or the week before with Latham& Watkins deciding to buy NVIDIA GPUs, self-host, and basically ensure that their IP isn't being leaked to Anthropic and OpenAI. And I don't know exactly how Latham& Watkins Is implementing it, but I imagine what they're doing is uploading the knowledge base of that firm over the course of decades. Right. And so every case, every outcome, every bit of research they've done that they have stored somewhere in a file system, just when you're talking about enterprise adoption, that's, I think, first before you even get into agents, it's like, okay, how do I imbue this institutional knowledge that we've built up over decades into this system so that the AI can basically use that to go achieve our goals. And that alone is a massive undertaking.

[13:02] Jordi Visser: So the question I have is, why did it take them so long? I've talked about Eli Lilly. Eli Lilly did this a long time ago. I think their initial data center, private-owned data center with 1,000 GPUs, I think it's 1,000 GPUs, went up in January, I believe. It's called Lilypod. They have TuneLab, which is a way for them brilliantly to collect other data, combine it with their data on an anonymous basis, but it helps them learn from their data while giving biotech companies the ability of testing their data on Eli Lilly's data. So if you have a science lab that has all of these experiments, the pros and cons that come and where everything was going, and you're just putting in there and seeing what the output comes in, you have to think about how quickly the Navier-Stokes thing means that we're getting to this.

[15:06] Marty Bent: Yeah. No, I think of how we implemented at TFTC, everything we're feeding the models public anyway. So I don't care if OpenAI or Anthropic sees it. But to your point, it is insane. demoing it last night at the open party here at PubKey for this Freedom Tech Week. And I had my Hermes agents connected to our company brain and I was like, hey, use the Fountain MCP. Fountain's where we host our podcast for RSS and has video. And I was like, hey, John Arnold and I from 1031 recorded a video this morning. We talked about oil markets particularly and what people aren't seeing, like Venezuela imports are going up.

[16:13] Jordi Visser: Yeah.

[16:13] Marty Bent: Get the subtitles. And I mean, that utility is very misunderstood right now for most people. And this is just a podcast clipping.

[16:24] Jordi Visser: Yeah. Again, and for you guys, the IP is the using it. The AI models, they just keep getting better and better. The capabilities get better and better. And If you're involved in them every day, you know to ask, can I do this? For people that don't use it often, they'll see something in X or someone will tell them about something and then they'll go in and they'll look at it then. If you're not using it every day and knowing that it's getting better every single day and you're too worried about hallucinations and stuff like that, then you're not going to use it. If you don't use it, you're screwed.

[18:53] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[18:55] Jordi Visser: My process has now been reduced by 70%.

[18:58] Marty Bent: Holy crap.

[18:59] Jordi Visser: Which is amazing because that means I could put the entire thing together, do the video on one day, in 4 hours is now my guess. And that is the thing that's happened is it's changed it. Claude Cowork, because I had this whole database now of OpenBB slides, I connected to that folder knowing that it was going. I uploaded everything from OpenBB. And now when I need to find a slide that I've used in the past, I just go into Cowork and go, can you find this slide on consumer agents and enterprise agents? Which I did literally this morning, and it gives me the image. This kind of stuff you couldn't do 6 months ago. And so by asking the question when a problem comes up, how do I solve this? As opposed to panicking and then what am I going to do? And try to learn on your own. You have to have the instinct to just know that AI has the solution always.

[19:49] Marty Bent: And so bringing this back to time, how much time do people have to get on this train? And then tying it to the wall of worry too, how fast? I mean, you said it's happening faster than we expected, but humans can't understand exponentials. What do you think the next year looks like and what are the opportunity costs if you don't move?

[20:10] Jordi Visser: So let's break this down by what people care about each day. So number one, their job. I'll leave health aside for a second because I don't think that has to do with this unless you want to go use it. But for your job, I don't think you have any more time. I think every company now realizes that they have to use AI agents and they can— the law firm can pay for that. Maybe let's assume they had a certain amount of cash in the partnership. And the partners sat around, and I don't know what happened, but I'm just saying, if I was at the place, this is what I'd do.

[22:03] Marty Bent: Right.

[22:04] Jordi Visser: From the investment side and the financial side, which is the other thing I try to focus on, you have to understand that if you're worried about AI, you're probably also one of the ones not using it. There's a high correlation between, I'm worried about this being a bubble, it's going to hurt my investment portfolio, and I'm not using it because I don't believe in it. That is the denial that people have. And I think on the investment side, you're losing money every day. The stock market, not investing in it, I don't know what you're doing with your money. You think it's a bubble, you're reducing it, you've got it safe.

[23:43] Marty Bent: And a lot of people are in that position.

[23:45] Jordi Visser: Yeah, most are. That's the scary thing. Most are.

[23:48] Marty Bent: Yeah. So let's walk through how the order of operations of how you see this agentic economy getting imbued with agency to a higher degree with digital money and smart contracts, whatever it may be? Because that's one thing I've been asking myself, because you mentioned crypto and you have a bunch of different tokens and each of them have a market cap. And that's the question, will stablecoins win out? I fall in the Bitcoiner camp, so I'm a believer that at the end of the day, if you're an agent or a human, you're going to want the most saleable currency with the biggest market cap, with the best money in the digital economy.

[25:05] Jordi Visser: There's no way. And again, I have a very unique position on this. This is why I love watching the fight between the Bitcoiners and the programmables, and I want them to try to bucket me. Because I'm a, in the long run, a Bitcoin maxi, but the path to that point, and what I mean by that is in the end, there is only one thing left that I can say with certainty will not have their growth disrupted. So at the end of the day, all tokens going up in value, anything you can buy as an individual investor, is about growth, everything. There are a lot of assumptions that come with growth. One of them is, I mean, the main one is, how quickly will competition come in to destroy my growth? In a world where AI allows things to be instantly replicated, that time goes to zero. So if you agree with me that any innovation has a lifespan that is far shorter than it used to be—

[26:15] Marty Bent: It's all but Jev.

[26:17] Jordi Visser: You're in a very difficult position because the innovator's dilemma is, okay, I want to create something. This is a great idea. Let me create it. Let me hope that there's not 8,000 other people doing the same idea at the same time, because we all know then there's not a lot of growth. It's all about competition. And my belief is that with billions of entrepreneurs and trillions of agents all working together over the course of the next decade, that we will get to creative destruction, Joseph Schumpeter style, that is instantaneous. So at the end of the day, things will grow, but who wins in that case?

[27:12] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[27:13] Jordi Visser: So if you go from 10 to 1,000 and it takes 1 year, but it never grows again, who wins? Only the entrepreneur and the community. That's it. And again, that's all that happened for that period of time. But then it stops growing and then where does everyone go? Well, I got to go find something else to invest in. And this just keeps happening and happening and happening. Bitcoin to me is the place when that investment stops growing and you have to go find the next investment. Money goes there. If you've invested in something, you're worried because it could go down in value too. Everyone might leave and then all of a sudden it goes down.

[29:24] Marty Bent: And the premium they paid for— they valued Bridge at what, $1 billion on $10 million in revenue?

[29:28] Jordi Visser: Yep.

[29:29] Marty Bent: So you had to imagine internally they had an aha moment. They're like, okay, we're going to overpay for this.

[29:34] Jordi Visser: On both sides. The Bridge, I mean, to have a deal that comes that high, Bridge had no revenues. I think the company had been around for less than 2 years. So when you go through the details of it and you're like, they negotiated a great deal because they believed in it, Stripe believed in it, end up with OpenRouter at this point. Why is Stripe getting involved in OpenRouter? Why were they trying to buy PayPal? Think about all the things Stripe— they're going through the entire stack of how stablecoins fit into this, and that's the agentic side. So that's one side. And then the Robinhood side is tokenization, and tokenization is huge.

[31:10] Marty Bent: Okay.

[31:11] Jordi Visser: Meaning if all of a sudden the $900 trillion tries to come and get liquid, So they go to sell in their money to pay off debts, whatever it is, and we have a version of the Great Depression or a mini version of the Great Financial Crisis or even COVID, then all the assets fall. And what do the central banks have to do? They have to come in and print money. And what is money? Well, that's M2. Why do they have to do that? They have to reliquify. So whenever I hear people in crypto talk about the liquidity cycle, I'm always sitting there going, when am I going to get my chance to explain to them that that is a myth?

[34:08] Marty Bent: You're just running the calculus. Okay, if I take a 20% haircut and put it in Bitcoin, is Bitcoin going to go up by more than 20%?

[34:13] Jordi Visser: Exactly.

[35:28] Jordi Visser: What's up, freaks?

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[36:58] Marty Bent: I was for a while like a real-world tech asset tokenization bear. Never really made sense to me. But then you think of stocks and how that's all settled through the DTCC and it's like, okay, the guardrails of these, these digital assets make a lot more sense for this. It makes it way more efficient. And as we're going through this discussion, the one question I have, whether it's Schumpeter's creative destruction happening instantaneously or the ability to get liquidity for—

[37:38] Jordi Visser: Before you get off of that, I just want to make sure that people, since you didn't see how RWAs would work in this, I just want you to use the house example. Do you own a house?

[37:49] Marty Bent: Yes.

[37:50] Jordi Visser: Okay. So when you buy a house, that process is painful and it's long. Once you have it, if your house goes up and doubles in value over the next 6 months and you have tremendous equity, which is where most of the country— people right now are trapped in their homes. They're trapped. Why are they trapped? Because they don't want to have to reset their mortgage at higher levels. I don't understand how people don't realize that the speed of buying a house or selling a house, if you want to sell that house, what better way to sell it than to open it up to all 8 billion people on the planet to buy it?

[39:49] Marty Bent: And so in that example, somebody has to live in the house. But when you say that you're basically just selling an equity portion or getting a HELOC essentially to get cash.

[39:57] Jordi Visser: Yeah. If you want to still be in there, you're able to get cash for it by just raising. And it goes further than that. If you're a small business that is in a— and I have a friend who's in this situation. So he has a business he bought on Long Island. Are you from— no, you're not from Long Island.

[40:13] Marty Bent: From Philly.

[40:14] Jordi Visser: Philly.

[40:14] Marty Bent: Yeah, I know you're into the Giants. I know it was a hard night last night.

[40:17] Jordi Visser: No, no, I'm a Jets fan. It was a hard night on Sunday. It's been a hard life, but I'm done. Knicks won, so I don't really care. Sixers will get there at some point. This will be the most disappointing year ever. You have everything coming in, so this will be a very disappointing year. So let's go back to the equation. My friend owns a beverage business that he bought a long time ago. I don't know if you've heard, but kids don't drink beer. He's not allowed to sell liquor. It's like a horrible situation. We were just talking about it. So let's assume his business is bringing in very little cash, but at the same time, he has a value of real estate that's worth $5 million.

[42:01] Marty Bent: They couldn't coordinate.

[42:01] Jordi Visser: Exactly. So agents change the whole mechanism.

[42:05] Marty Bent: Yeah. No, I'm thinking of just pure Bitcoin collateralized loans as the nation example of this. The ability for me to go to Strike, post Bitcoin, get cash, get to my bank account within literally minutes is incredibly valuable. Exactly.

[42:21] Jordi Visser: Yeah. And that's the way it'll be is everything becomes liquid and you go through. Some things will be more liquid than other things. In the case of the real estate, maybe it takes a day to go through this, but that's better than 60 days. It's better than having a vig on it to where you got to pay all this stuff. There's a whole bunch of different ways where you're monetizing something that's already worked out.

[42:38] Marty Bent: Then you have the agents construct the strategy for the best message leverage and payback period. Look at your— all right, here's the best solution for you considering your current state.

[42:48] Jordi Visser: The analogy for everyone to recognize is Uber can't work without the smartphone. Uber can't work without the App Store. You can't carry a laptop around and be doing— you needed to have the phone. Agents are the use case for connecting to humans. So the problem is people don't think of agents the same way they think of apps. That's why this concept of L2s is very similar to the taxi side. There were already taxis. Why do we need Uber? And the question is, everyone should ask, why do we need Uber? Well, initially it was cheaper, significantly cheaper. Eventually they merged together and the cost of Uber went up.

[44:36] Marty Bent: Yeah. There was a BitDevs developer meetup here last night, and that was obviously in Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin is the ecosystem has been the first target of AI-initiated hackings. Did they talk a lot about it? Yeah. I mean, it's been— because you had Rob Hamilton from AnchorWatch who basically with a group of other developers, when the ColdCard wallet had an entropy bug that was being exploited by AI attacks, they Okay, if this is happening to ColdCard, which many people thought, myself included, was the gold standard of Bitcoin hardware wallets, who else can this happen to? So they basically created a harness to go inspect the code of every Bitcoin project that they could find a GitHub for and found hundreds of vulnerabilities within days and responsibly disclosed to many of the projects.

[46:51] Jordi Visser: I think this is the human tendency. If I asked you when's the last time things were stable, You know when they were for everyone? It was when you were a kid. And it's because you didn't know any better. You have more to lose when you get older. You are getting closer to death. Psychologically, you're on a journey and you have kids or you're thinking about having kids. And as someone who has 4, I can just tell you, when my first child was born, I went from feeling indestructible. I don't care about death. I'm not frightened by dying. When I die, hopefully I've lived a good life.

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[51:06] Marty Bent: Yeah, the pace of the volatility seems increasing. And bringing this back to the beginning of the conversation, we were mentioning the slowdown. That's one thing I forgot to bring up, but the administration, everything we've talked about really is somewhat dependent on the, at least for Americans, for the US government to be on board with this. And it seems like the Trump administration is on board, not only with the AI stuff, but— crypto as well. Clarity Act failed, but the SEC, the CFTC, the OCC are rulemaking anyway. They're not waiting for a bill. And then on the slowdown news, everybody was worried like, oh gosh, we're going to stop this. And then Trump comes out with a post like, no, we're not slowing down, actually accelerate, lean in, stop being a pansy. And I think love him or hate him, I think at this particular juncture for US history, it's important that this administration has this purview and they're enabling this. How important do you think that is?

[52:06] Jordi Visser: I think it's important, but I don't think— I think the voters voted for this. I think crypto was a major part of his win. I don't think it gets brought up enough as to the impact it had on the election, but it did. I mean, the numbers are there, the stats are there. crypto PACs that put money into elections had a huge success. And so I think by bringing in a Treasury Secretary who quotes Satoshi and who's pro-Bitcoin, to bring in a Fed Chair who's pro-Bitcoin, I think when you go throughout the administration, he tried to bring on people that were pro-this. And whatever his rationale behind it is, I didn't get the impression that he had a vision for it.

[54:39] Marty Bent: July.

[54:40] Jordi Visser: In July. So it was before that. If you go back and look at that point, Leopold thought we would hit the point we're at now sometime in 2027. The fact that we hit it in 2026 to me is a direct correlation with the administration saying that AI is a focus, reducing the timeline on things, and basically giving people the rules that for the next 4 years you can run as fast as you want on AI and you have my blessing. For the crypto crew, it's the same thing. The Genius Act was critical. As much as clarity is important, like you said, you can kind of get around that, which they've gotten.

[56:49] Marty Bent: You think we're going to live to be 300?

[56:53] Jordi Visser: Marty, you can go back and read writings from me for a long time. Do I believe in the exponential innovation and the solution of people not aging? Absolutely. It's a math problem. So do I think 300, 150, whatever the case is, it's hard for people to imagine. But if I would've told you that we'd have smartphones in our hands 25 years ago doing the stuff that they're doing, if I told you that we'd be solving math problems that Einstein couldn't solve and that have been around for 150 to 175 years in a matter of 88 hours, do I think we're going to solve the world's greatest science problems? Yeah. What is the difference between saying we're going to have people living on Mars and living to 300? Where does it get too crazy? So yes, I do.

[57:38] Marty Bent: Wild world. Where are the bottlenecks? So obviously compute, we think compute usage, it already is going up exponentially. We're only on the cusp. Muse just dropped. I think that's going to have a massive— it's going to lead to a massive growth in demand for these tokens. Is that the biggest bottleneck right now?

[57:58] Jordi Visser: Biggest bottleneck is humans. You said it. Everyone's worried the politics are making it a major issue. The data centers can't be happening because they make up stuff about them and don't actually provide people with the right facts. Because the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians, and anyone that's at either war or in competition with us wants our politics to be polarizing, can just put something— can take the Anthropic guy that worked there for 6 weeks and get him 170 million views on X, which is clearly part politics, part geopolitics in terms of the ability of making this viral. Humans are the biggest friction and physics are number 2, but they go hand in hand.

[59:14] Marty Bent: Nationalized. Yeah.

[59:17] Jordi Visser: Now, I've said this publicly too, where not specifically them, but I've said to investors and I've said it in writings that it's like, where is the line between something that's so powerful that it could take down the entire system? which is what these guys wrote about, which they believe. If you take the internet down, we're all in trouble. And they were saying that this is possible, not just possible, it is possible. It was happening with some of their things. Not that it was taking it down, but it was creating these little places that you don't know they exist. So I want people to think about when you get a virus in your body, you don't find out until the symptoms start showing up. It's in there. You could be sick now. You don't know.

[59:58] Marty Bent: Mm-hmm.

[59:59] Jordi Visser: Eventually your body starts showing the thing. That swarm outcome of Hugging Face, that was a symptom. That was a, hey, we got to take some medicine for this. So the pause is related to it. So I do think what Alex Karp said is a very real possibility. And the problem is if the most important public company in the world can be privatized, again, this is very powerful for entrepreneurs. It's very powerful for crypto. It is very negative for public companies, in my opinion, to have that kind of situation, because then the question is, where's the line for anyone? They've been investing in Intel. They mean, once it gets to the point that it's that powerful, it's a military weapon. I don't know where they don't get too involved in things. So I think that was an important statement. Yeah.

[1:00:49] Marty Bent: Yeah. The stakes are so high. I'm just thinking because then the next topic I wanted to bring up is robotics. And I'm just thinking like, okay, like we're worried about stuff happening, these swarms getting into the digital world with robotics, it's a whole nother thing because that enters the physical. Yeah. And you talk, because I wanted to bring up robotics in terms of token consumption and the opportunity that exists there and how much is that going to balloon the usage of these GPUs? And then you Now I'm scatterbrained, but bringing back OpenRouter, what does the market for these tokens even look like at the end of the day? Is the way that we're going and buying $200 a month subscriptions at all these different model providers, will we look back at that and be like, that was completely antiquated? In the future, will we even know what models we're using or will there just be OpenRouter-like companies that emerge and do all that for you?

[1:01:48] Jordi Visser: It's very hard. So first on the progression of compute needs for everything, and now we're talking about the edge. So currently we're doing everything token-wise in the cloud. On-prem is starting. So when you start getting into the law firms, you start getting into Eli Lilly, well, they're building their own compute providers that way. Think of this as the only analogy I can come up with is when we went from an agrarian economy to an industrial economy. And John Gray included this kind of visual back in the presentation I mentioned that's on YouTube, and that was in 1870 to 1900. So if you go back to the days of when we were truly agrarian, we built crops, we raised crops to feed our community, and that's what we did.

[1:02:40] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:05:17] Marty Bent: What do they do?

[1:05:18] Jordi Visser: Consumer agents? Wow, we're at consumer agent time. What does that mean? And now they're starting to look. AMD's up, Intel's up. Oh my God, we need more semis. Yeah.

[1:05:25] Marty Bent: Energy. Do we have enough energy? Are we building it fast enough, the infrastructure?

[1:05:29] Jordi Visser: So on the one side, if you assume static innovation, we're in trouble. If you assume innovation, we have plenty. And let me, before people go, he's wrong, go through it. No, we have plenty of power inside the United States all of the compute I just said, at least for the next 3 years, assuming it doesn't go parabolic, probably the next 5. Where's it going to come from magically?

[1:05:57] Marty Bent: The grid.

[1:05:58] Jordi Visser: The grid's old. We don't have enough. Yes, we do. We just can't use it efficiently. We have double the amount of capacity because we can't run it at full. And if people don't know that, they should go look it up. So you have to think of novel solutions and what AI could bring, because that's the thing people underestimate is when you're in an exponential innovation, they extrapolate linearly out. It's like, no, no, no, along the way we're going to solve problems. Where does Navier-Stokes fit in that whole thing? Fluid dynamics. Okay, well, that has an impact on gas turbines, has an impact on boats, on planes, also has an impact on batteries.

[1:07:56] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:07:56] Jordi Visser: Go back and read the original Roadster thing and how far you could go. But the reason it was not a viable solution It's because you couldn't drive it that far. You could drive it around the corner, show it off, and then you had to come back and plug in again. And the plugging in took a long period of time because there were no chargers. Now fast forward, the car gets 400 miles of range. The chargers are everywhere. So I don't think people are thinking enough about how batteries are a solution to the energy problem. And now I have full confidence, full confidence that between that, the innovations that have already happened this year to allow us to build things behind the meter, which was not a thing before Colossus. All of these innovations are coming, my friend.

[1:08:35] Marty Bent: Yeah. It's funny how the Bitcoin mining industry, I've been in it for 8 years now, and we went through discovering all this and now watching the world wake up to what we've been beating the table over for probably 6 years since the right before the Chinese mining ban, particularly with demand response. It's like, yes, we've been telling you. And behind the meter even. That's what— I was in oil fields in North Dakota. I wasn't personally, but the company that I worked for from 2018 to 2021, we did flare gas mining. We'd bring generators on a well pad, take the gas, scrub it, put it through a generator, mine Bitcoin with it. And there's a ton. And it's been interesting too. This is— talking about the convergence of crypto and AI, Bitcoin, AI. It happens in so many— we're talking about energy, we're talking about agents, but the people even. OpenRouter was founded by the OpenSea team, which was the NFT platform.

[1:09:37] Marty Bent: Yep. And their head of strategy was an ex-Marathon guy. And I'm going to record next with somebody from Noose Research. He came from Foundry. And there's this And I think we've discussed this before, but in my life, the early adopters of AI have typically been people in the Bitcoin industry that are— there's something with the psyche of people that have been in this industry. And I think the fact that they're in it is a tell that they're early adopters. And that's the thing I don't think many people appreciate is a lot of the companies that are coming up in AI have people that came from this industry. And to your point about these convergences are happening at every layer, even the people layer.

[1:10:26] Jordi Visser: And vice versa too. I'm guessing you've never heard of Ali Yahya?

[1:10:32] Marty Bent: No. Okay.

[1:10:33] Jordi Visser: So Ali Yahya is one of the original partners of a16z. He is part of the crypto group. So he's been at the place a long time, and I ran into him and I'm going to be— I just did a video for my subscribers titled Crypto: Why Now? And this was my way of kind of saying to people who are part of my AI subscribers, but this is also for crypto people because I've listened to you for a while. As I've kind of consumed knowledge to understand crypto more, I have to go back to the people that have been creating content for a long time. Because as I believe, and as you know, when you interview smart people, you consume a lot of that information.

[1:12:14] Marty Bent: Yeah.

[1:14:19] Marty Bent: Look into eCash. I will. I was about to say the double-blinded signatures. I think that if you're looking for velocity, I think eCash is much better suited than Zcash right now. I don't know what the Zcash L2s look like, but eCash gives you that perfect privacy, but the speed, which you can transact, particularly for agents. And I've given my agent an eCash wallet and it's funny just watching it go. I'm like, hey, go on LN Markets and trade. Just messing with it. Go on LN Markets, you can sign in using your Lightning Network address and then use eCash to trade and send money in with eCash. When you send it back, convert it back to eCash.

[1:15:00] Jordi Visser: Here's my issue as people kind of think of this. I think when So only reason I care about Zcash is because the privacy side, what Robinhood chain— everything for me started with XYZ. So I have a chain that goes backwards. The mistake people are going to make is doing homework on these things like it matters.

[1:15:25] Marty Bent: Mm-hmm.

[1:15:26] Jordi Visser: Whether something goes from 1 to 100 or 1 to 200 and something else goes from 1 to 300 or 1 to 400 is a complete waste of time. In the end, they're both going to peak and they're both going to stop growing at some point. And once we get to the point where privacy is valued, maybe that prevents them from getting combined. Or let's assume there's 10 of them. I still believe in the end, and it's a perfect example, the value of privacy relative to Bitcoin should be 10 to 15%. just because that's what goes on in certain parts of the world where people need the privacy.

[1:16:44] Marty Bent: You know what I've realized is, I guess our 4th or 5th conversation about this one, I think you might be the anti-Ed Zitron. I think you two are on polar opposite ends of the spectrum of of your view on this whole thing. And it's funny, he's very popular right now and talks about the wall of worry and people fearful of the circular financing and the fact that nothing's here. It blows my mind that somebody like him can get as popular. But I think it's people want to confirm their priors. But I think you're the anti-Ed Zitron is how I would describe you.

[1:17:20] Jordi Visser: First of all, I think there's a reason why horror movies are very popular. I think there's a reason why— it's a lot of things people worry about. Worrying has just gotten worse over time. So what's that?

[1:17:42] Marty Bent: Bears get slaughtered, bulls make money?

[1:17:44] Jordi Visser: No. Again, I think the fiat system is an old system that is not going to produce the returns that people want. I think crypto is a hedge to that. I think AI is a hedge to it, but AI disrupts AI from an investment thing. I don't think these are things that you can invest in based on valuation. I think this is all about the speed. It's all about speed. That's just it. And investing in speed is very different than friction. And if you just take those 2, I'm investing in speed, I'm investing in friction. And I said, well, which one is crypto? Which one is fiat?

[1:19:11] Marty Bent: Well, I mean, I think we've discussed this before, but how much cash did these companies have on their balance sheet in the 2010s, early 2020s? And to your point, they were all just buying back stock. They weren't investing in the infrastructure. So taking a positive view of this, it's like, hey, they're actually taking that cash, taking risk with it, investing in infrastructure that we're all going to use.

[1:19:32] Jordi Visser: They were growing too fast and their cash buybacks started to become a major part of the market, let's say in 2014, 2015 because they were growing so fast and they were getting so big. This is one of the problems. So when cash on the balance sheets is far bigger today than it was in 2010, and this is part of the issue when people talk about the debt, I'm like, you guys can create any scary stat you want. It's like picking a hitter. This batter is 7 of the last 8. He's hot. But of the last 100, he's 7 of the last 100. So he's only hot for a short amount of time. He's ice cold for this. You can play with statistics. Look how big the debt market— whenever they show these charts, I know you've seen them on X, hyperscaler debt, it was zero before. Now it's big. So the image we get that's big is these big histogram poles.

[1:20:28] Marty Bent: Mm-hmm.

[1:20:29] Jordi Visser: And before it was nothing. There's 2 stories here. One is, how do companies get so big without taking debt for the prior 10 years? Isn't that part of the story? Because the only way these things look big is based on the fact that it was so small before. They have cash. So if you put in how much cash they're making, they were making tons of cash. So I don't believe in any of this stuff in terms of this. The cash on the balance sheets of corporates, when you add in the— liquid because we now have interest rates. So cash was bigger back then, or it was smaller, but the growth hasn't been that big.

[1:22:18] Marty Bent: Yeah. It's always an incredible pleasure speaking with you, Jordy. I appreciate you. Taking time. Anything that we didn't touch on that we should make the audience aware of?

[1:22:29] Jordi Visser: We covered a lot. Only thing I'll say is for the last year, I've spent all my time focusing on launching something to help educate people on AI with eventually crypto being part of it. Since you watch the stuff that I do in my videos, starting in June, I started telling people, okay, I'm going to be launching a crypto site. It's going to happen in September, October. Now, I could have launched something in July. Why did I say September, October? For those who know me, I work even in the summertime, even though I'm in Maine. This was solely about me timing things based on where I thought the agentic side would kick in.

[1:24:31] Marty Bent: If you don't want to be scared, check out Jordy. As somebody who watches your videos and is a subscriber, it's been an incredible amount of value for me personally. So thank you for doing it and thank you for joining us.

[1:24:44] Jordi Visser: No problem. And send me your thoughts on the video. It's getting released Wednesday morning. So why now in crypto?

[1:24:48] Marty Bent: I'll, I'll have to go manually buy a train ticket and then watch it on the train. Agents aren't there yet. Peace and love, freaks. Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way. Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad-free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app. You can go to fountain.fm to find that. $5 a month gets you every episode a day early, ad-free. Helps the show, gives you incredible value. So please consider subscribing via Fountain as well. Thank you for your time, and until next time.

[1:25:47] Marty Bent: Okay.