Calle unveils NUMOpay, tap-to-pay Bitcoin via eCash over NFC.
AI coding tools went from useful to genuinely good in the last three months, and single individuals can now ship products that previously required specialist teams, OpenClaw and Bit Chat were each built by one person. Calle unveiled NUMOpay, a tap-to-pay Bitcoin system using Cashew eCash over NFC that works offline for the payer, offers privacy by default, requires no KYC, and is already supported by six or seven Cashew wallets with BTC Pay Server integration coming soon. Auto-withdrawal thresholds let merchants limit custodial risk from eCash mints. On the agentic payments front, every stablecoin is permissioned and can be turned off, making Bitcoin and eCash the only internet-native, KYC-free options for machine-to-machine payments. The manual craft of coding matters less now, taste, vision, communication, and motivation are the new scarce resources, and the biggest obstacle to building is no longer skill but willpower.
"If you're a software developer today and you're not using AI, I'm willing to put money on the table that you will lose your job in 5 years."
"When I first discovered OpenClaw, I had like two or three sleepless nights trying to process what this means. It's like this ChatGPT moment again."
"Previously the biggest obstacle was skill. Today it's not anymore. It's about who's motivated."
"Every stablecoin is permissioned. All of them can be turned off if they don't like your digital ID."
"No one else is doing it. There is no one except this circle of people trying to counteract the massive growth of surveillance technology and centralized control."
Calle's message is clear: the tools are here, the playing field is leveling, and the only thing standing between a motivated Bitcoiner and shipping real products is willpower. NUMOpay represents the kind of leap that happens when deep protocol knowledge meets AI-accelerated development, tap-to-pay Bitcoin with privacy that rivals or beats anything in fiat. The window for Bitcoin to win agentic payments and merchant adoption is open right now, but it won't stay open forever. The race has started and Bitcoiners need to show up.
0:00 - Intro
0:38 - Catching Up With Calle
12:10 - OpenClaw And The Personal Agent Revolution
20:19 - Running A $200k DevOps Engineer For Free
23:30 - BitChat
27:27 - Using For Evil
22:09 - How To Approach
41:17 - Numo Tap-To-Pay
51:04 - Wallet And Merchant Adoption
56:13 - eCash For AI Agents
1:03:57 - The Future Of Human Creativity
(00:00) If you're a software developer today and you're not using AI, I'm willing to put money on the table that you will lose your job in 5 years. I am 99% sure this is what going to happen to most people if they don't adopt this technology. When I first discovered open call, almost like two or three sleepless nights trying to process what this means cuz it's like this chat GPT moment again.
(00:19) Everyone will have this in one year. Sup freaks. Before we get into the show, I just want to send a heartfelt thank you. Thank you for joining us and ask for one quick thing. Could you like this episode, subscribe to the channel, and if you like the conversation, join us in the comment section. Calle, it's been uh a year and a month almost exactly to the date since we published uh our last podcast where we met in person in the jungle and a lot has happened since then.
(00:52) How have you been, sir? >> Oh, yeah. I've been I've been doing great. And wow, that's been a year and over a year. That's crazy. Um I wish we were in the jungle again, though. So I mean, looking out at uh 20 ines of snow, uh the jungle is much preferred to this. But for anybody who's listening who didn't catch that first episode, doesn't know who Cali is.
(01:15) I'd be surprised if you don't. Cali is one of the most prolific and active individual builders in the Bitcoin and freedom tech ecosystem. uh working on Bitcoin uh the Cashew eCash protocol, Bit Chat, uh Clawi, AI, and other opensource dev projects. You've got a PhD in physics. And I mean, I've been following the sparse podcasts you've been doing throughout the year.
(01:43) I think you were on Citadel Dispatch summer of last year. uh and you were talking about this proliferation of AI tools and how vibe coding helped you build the Android app for Bit Chat that has blown up. We'll talk about Bit Chat, but I think >> um focusing in on what's happening now uh with Clawi AI and basically you launching agents to help you do your work.
(02:08) You tweeted yesterday about a DevOps engineer that you launched that would typically cost $200,000, but you have it running autonomously 247. What uh what's going on? >> Yeah, I I I don't know what's going on that I I strongly believe that no one does where we're heading and it really feels like everything that we're doing right now is something that hasn't been done before.
(02:37) So we are like 100% in discovery or uh in in in a discovery mode or in a pioneer mode where you know any new idea on the table is basically is is is probably the first time that someone tries it out as you made some examples like I've been um focusing a lot on AI agents recently particularly focusing on open claw and I like it a lot and try to make it as useful as possible and try to figure out ways how to integrate it into the projects that I'm working on to be more effective, more cost effective and faster, ship more and higher quality code. Uh but
(03:19) we'll be talking about that I'm sure in this part in more detail. Yeah, I think I mean just dive into like how prolific this is for you. Somebody who actually understands like I was saying just before we hit record, I'm having some sleepless nights pushing my open claw agent uh to the edges and I barely know what I'm doing from the systems admin backend engineering programming >> perspective at all and I can't imagine what it's like for you.
(03:57) um and in terms of like productivity wise and what you're able to do, what's what um how profound has it been for you? >> Well, everything has completely changed and I would have never thought that I would be able to say that in my uh like programmer career. So, like many people, I've been programming for decades at this point.
(04:18) And so I I consider myself like a professional developer with lots of experience and and probably everyone has noticed by now that the work of being a programmer has flipped by like 180°. It has changed in a way that no one would have predicted even only two years ago maybe. So in the last one or two years maybe we'll start a little earlier.
(04:47) So the way I see this in my mind is we have multiple stages of innovation in AI with regard to uh LLMs and agents. So level one was using an LLM in a browser chat GPT. That was the most pivotal moment in AI history so to speak when you're think when you think about how actual normal people interface and interact with AI that was the biggest moment.
(05:15) And I think also up to date uh comparing to the penetration speed of other technologies it has been the fastest growing and fastest adopted technology in history was chat GPT. So um it has conquered the entire world and that's level one. You open a browser, you ask a question, you get a response. And we've been, you know, doing that uh for a year or two and also programmers started noticing quite fast that you can copy code from your codebase and put it into chat GPT, ask a few questions, get some code back and put it back into your
(05:49) codebase. So there were many manual steps uh still involved when doing development work using AI. And um so after level one we reached level two around um maybe one and a half years ago which is the introduction of agents and agents finally gave the LLMs that were previously confined in the browser um gave them kind of legs and arms to act on your computer.
(06:22) So that is for example cloud code is probably the most uh popular one and then there's codeex and so on from chat jeep from from openai what I use the most is open code which is a llm agnostic framework uh fully open source really high quality project so um that is most of the code that I write today goes through these tools so um and now I'm talking to other software engineers all the time about this and it's it's very fascinating to see what people think about this and how they perceive their their job changing over time and you have like you have a small
(07:02) portion what feels like 10 to 20% of developers resisting the change and they they don't like AI and they think it's it's fallible and it's not as good as they are and then you have this way larger percentage of developers who use it and try to increase their productivity. And um and what I see is you know those who value the manual aspect of coding and I compare them to artisans.
(07:38) So people who take pride in uh having done the work themselves and also enjoy the process of doing so and see some mastery in it or try to perfect their mastery and skills in it. um have a harder time giving up the job to an AI whereas and then there is kind of like the opposite of that is prolific coders who've been in the business for decades at this point who notice that they can increase their output by and I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying like five to 10x um which is you know if you are confronted with an efficiency boost of 5 to 10x then
(08:17) it's really really hard to say no. And the only good reason that remains to say no is extreme safety. So you're dealing with Bitcoin for example and you're not going to have a machine just write all the code for you that deals with money or you're in like an um you know industrial uh sector where it's the critical infrastructure or something like that where you don't like where you need the human in the loop and or uh those who you know really want to perfect their art.
(08:52) So there's like still some extremely good a very tiny number of human workers coders who can't be matched by AI and you know they are getting paid large sums of money these days to be like the one big expert in cobalt or something like that working in in the companies. But for the rest um you know the adoption of agents has led to an incredible uh output boost and uh productivity boost and so that's what I've been focusing uh for the last year and a half or two which is like how can I make use of these tools to improve all of these projects that I'm working on a
(09:36) lot uh you know a lot faster and also help all my peers to also get on that train and basically basically making sure that anyone in our in our cashier ecosystem uses AI tools and realizes that if you're a software developer today and you're not using AI, you know, I'm I'm willing to put money on the table that you will lose your job in 5 years.
(10:00) Like you won't have a job in 5 years. I am 99% sure that this is what going to happen to most people if they don't adopt this technology and the economic realities will force you to do so. So that that is level two. It has changed the industry completely which again is something that I would never have thought that I would uh experience this.
(10:26) And um level three now this is the level that we are currently in. This is the next evolution of AI agents are these um proactive always on running agents, personal AI agents that have a memory and a context about you that run either on your own home computer all the time or on a server somewhere in the cloud all the time.
(10:49) you're the only one who has access to uh that one computer and the agent has its own computer, can do anything on that computer. And with that power and with a loop that closes kind of like tells the agent to work round the clock and uh with all these ingredients combined, we've seen what the future of personalized AI agents will look like a couple weeks ago when you know Open Call blew up.
(11:18) And when I first discovered open call, I had like we were talking about this before the recording as you said almost like two or three sleepless nights just trying to process what this means. Cuz when you try a technology for the first time and then you get this intuition that oh my god like this is so powerful this everyone will have this in one year.
(11:42) This will be everywhere in one year because it's too powerful. It's like this chat GPT moment again I think where you know the first moment you tried chat GPT you were like sure this is so this is so um significant that there is no way this won't penetrate everywhere. This is how I felt again with kind of the latest iteration of level three autonomous AI agents and um yeah that's that's been on my mind a lot uh lately.
(12:11) >> Yeah. And what would you say to people because I've um been using OpenClaw for like I was I'm an OG. I was using it when it was Clawbot and I had to set it up uh in the cloud via CLI. I didn't have is it claw or claw.ai? >> I call it Chloe. >> Claw. I didn't have claw. I didn't have like oneclick deploy.
(12:33) So I set it up like a like a caveman in a VPS and I've been using it. I've similarly had this like, holy crap, this is so powerful. Everybody's going to be using this eventually, but there there are naysayers out there like it it it's like cloud code. Like I I've been using cloud code and cloud co-work and it's the exact same from what I understand.
(12:52) Um what are the differences and what is the difference between just using cloud code or cloud co-work um uh sort of in in a silo versus creating an open claw and giving it access to cloud code. Um and and the way I understand is open claw is like a harness that really uh adds a bunch of power to cloud code and other models for that matter.
(13:16) >> Yeah. So we definitely have to differentiate between kind of like what's the LLM and it can be cla or ous or GPT or whatever it is like the brain and then the body which is um the claw code CLI for example or open claw so kind of where do you put that brain into and the biggest difference between the level two coding tools and the level three personal agents is the loop Uh personal agents are alive all the time.
(13:49) They don't care whether you leave your keyboard or not. It's not meant to interact like they're not meant to be interacted with using that one single keyboard that you have on your computer and when you close your computer it's gone again. But it's rather meant for something that that is active all the time can do something in the background and um as memory about everything you've done so far.
(14:15) And that is what you know open call also does. It it it has a persistent memory. Sometimes it struggles with that memory but it at least you know tries to remember everything that you've been doing. You can talk to it like a normal person via chat. So you you usually interact with it with you know signal, WhatsApp, telegram, whatever you want.
(14:34) And uh it can you can tell it to you know every day at 2 p.m. make a report about all the activity that has been going on in this GitHub repository. For example, this is one of the many examples that we we're using in our dev organization, which is we have one of these glories that basically just tracks our progress on GitHub and gives us you know daily reports about hey these are the new pull requests that were open, these are the new issues that were open sorted by severity and these people are working on that and there's no activity in this
(15:06) project so maybe you should look at it or something like that. You know, having something like that that gives you automated responses every day, for example, could be every hour, could be every every week, whatever you want. It could be news aggregation, research on the latest topics that you're interested in or just something very banal and related to your personal life.
(15:27) So, um there are clear differences in the capabilities between level two and level three. Uh I think you know it's very it's very normal that there will be skeptics about you know what is this useful for. I've seen many technologies come and also go where you always have the same thing. Um and since we're so new and so early with this technology it basically the limit is your imagination right now is if you cannot think of a way how this can be useful for you then think a little harder.
(15:58) That's that's what I would suggest because I'm pretty sure everyone who deals with computers and that's everyone as something that they don't like doing themselves or they would they would like someone else to do it like in the background for them and yeah so so you can probably come up with stuff yourself.
(16:18) I'll just give you one uh one anecdote of mine is you know I've been on a conference and using like Uber or Bolt or something like that for for taxi rides. So at the end of the conference, I need to put all the invoices together for my accountant so they can, you know, be properly accounted for. And I hate that step. Like it's it's it gives me anxiety just to think about that little task that I have to do after every single conference is download all the PDFs from Uber that like have these weird file names and then I need to go into every PDF, take
(16:47) out the date and rename it and send it to my accountant. Like these are like a couple of stupid steps that I need to do after every conference. And this time I just like downloaded 15 invoices as a PDFs and I dropped it over to my Chloe over signal and I told it like hey you know just you know look into the PDFs extract the dates rename the file sent them back to me and I just could go on with my life and 3 minutes later I have I received 15 PDFs back perfectly formatted in a way that I can just drop and forward to my account and I'm I'm
(17:19) done with the task. You know this is something very personal to me. No one would build a product just for that because it's too too specific. But we don't need to anymore. We have now machines that can do basically everything. And um that's just mind-blowing. And another thing that I think is know is is something that we're just getting adjusted to is how we talk to computers.
(17:42) Something is fundamentally changing in how we interact with computers because you know for example just the the experience of installing software until now it was either you know go to a browser download a file and then click on it go through that setup blah blah blah and then you have a software or for if you're a Linux person you just you know you do it over the terminal you install it and then it's there and then maybe you need to configure it and then you can use it and you know lately the The way I've been installing most of the software over for
(18:13) an AI agent is basically just taking the link to the GitHub or to the website of the thing that I want it to use. I send it the link and say install this and I just turn around and do my thing. It comes back after 2 minutes says it's done. It's working. I've tested it. What do you want me to do with it? And you know the I it's it's just it's mind-blowing these basic these basic interactions that hadn't changed for over you know for decades since the invention of the personal computer.
(18:47) Everything has now changed like every single person can now use basically everything through a language based interface. And I I think that is that that's just that's that's amazing. It opens, you know, so many new doors and helps so many new people to use software and be more productive humans. >> This trip at TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at Unchained.
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(19:29) It's a Bitcoin wallet built for people who want self- custody to actually fit into their lives. Bit is a private multi-ig wallet that removes the biggest point of failure in traditional self-custody. The seed phrase no ceremony, nothing to hide, and no single mistake that can put your Bitcoin at risk. Things get lost.
(19:42) Hey, we know that. Phones get replaced, life happens. Bit key is designed so your Bitcoin stays secure and recoverable without demanding constant attention or expertise. And because it's built for the long term, inheritance is built in so your Bitcoin can move securely into the next generation. It's Bitcoin self-custody built for real life.
(19:59) And for February only freaks, for you guys, for you guys only, listeners can get BitKey for $99 using the code TFTC99. Go to bitkey.world, that's bit ty.world. Use the code TFTC99 to get a bit key for $99. You can go directly to the bit.world site if you're watching on YouTube in our store below. Yeah, it's I mean it's become clear to me over the last six weeks the form factor with how we interact with computers is changing right before our eyes.
(20:30) Like voice to text, voice to voice even um is how like I mean a month and a half ago I would use voice to text for some things but really not much. And now whenever I'm on my computer, I'm hitting option spacebar and just talking for 5 minutes and then sending sending that prompt or that conversation to to my agent and then it's just doing these tasks and it's like we're projectionists now.
(20:55) We can just think of something we want in your example of the Uber receipts for your accountant like I need that and you can just project it into reality which is insane. >> Yes. And and you know it goes even there there's even it goes even deeper. I'll tell you just a little story about uh how how I started working on Bitchat cuz when I saw Jack uh release Bithat for iOS initially I was like oh no this is iOS like I'm I'm an Android guy.
(21:29) I would like this to exist for Android. Why did he only build it for iOS? Right? And you know, we're in times where you can just do it. But the thing is like I'm not an expert on Android. I've never made a real Android app before. And and I've been I've been searching for, you know, experts in se in several fields for so long.
(21:53) For example, we're working a lot with NFC these days for Cashew. And um you know try to find an Android expert that also has uh experience with NFC. These are like you're looking for someone very specific and even if you have the money to pay them it's super hard to find them and even you know if you say like okay I'm going to learn it. So you go out and search for documentation and but and every all you see is code from 8 years ago that hasn't had been updated or like super old documentation or PDFs that look like technical sheets that you really don't like to read but
(22:32) or or you can't understand or something like that. It's like even for someone who is you know a good amount of skill in a certain field there are blocks blockers that would have cost you either a lot of money or time to find someone who can help you and now I can just like talk to the machine and tell like can you please explain to me how NFC on Android works and it will figure everything out.
(23:02) it it's the best expert that you can think of in several like very specific domains in the thing that you are good at already. So um it not only helps you know the uninitiated to raise their levels and become more productive humans that can focus on their lives but also the ones that are really deep into their own profession helps them to you know broaden their scope and figure out things that were that they weren't able to figure out before.
(23:32) Wow, it's truly mind-blowing. And I I had a discussion with Justin Moon uh a couple weeks ago about what this means for Freedom Tech. And since you brought up Bit Chat, I think Bit Chat's the perfect example of something that's been accelerated via these AI tools uh and is a freedom tech project that found I think it's safe to say like mass adoption.
(23:57) Um during the elections in Uganda um when they turned the internet off in Iran, when they had the hurricane in Jamaica, people have been turning to Bitchat, which you've been working on. But I think talking about a a broader topic like how how important are these AI tools for the pro proliferation of freedom tech generally and what does it what does it mean for how we build these freedom tech apps moving forward? Do you is it give you more hope that we can actually win this battle? >> Yeah, 100%.
(24:28) And interestingly it's it's a human factor. The answer is is the human factor at the end of the day because um with AI what what effectively happens is that you increase the number of people who can reach a certain goal and previously it was confined to a very small number of people. You need like the Android NFC Bluetooth expert who has worked on some project five years ago and that's why he is the perfect person to build bit today for example right so there's the chance of this happening is just way lower but today we're 100% at a point where you can build a solid and
(25:11) well like useful application with a single person who's motivated enough to actually pull it off. Right? So Jack has proven that he's basically said, I wanted to research how mesh networks works and he's built this incredible app. Or another example is open claw itself. It was built by a single person. It's unheard of.
(25:34) It's impossible. There's there's no way in the world one year ago that this would have been possible. And today like only a year or maybe two years into this technology we've already seen profound effect profound impact of of highly motivated individuals who are now able to execute. I still think you know it requires some upfront work from you as a human because it's not like everything is has now the same uh same difficulty for everyone.
(26:09) It definitely equalizes everything. But still being an expert in a certain field, knowing what the pain points are, having all that context that you only gain through experience, that is what makes you kind of stand out in the sea of uh you know equal capabilities. And I think that like that's the move forward is is figuring out who's motivated and less like who's skilled.
(26:41) It's more about you as a person. What are your goals and your ideals? And if you if you're a person who's like this a doer who doesn't sit there and wait until someone else does it, but you're motivated enough to do it. Previously the biggest obstacle was skill and today it's not anymore. And that's just that's amazing.
(27:00) we we can't even start to comprehend what it can change. I believe that software is one of the most important driving factors in this in today's world. How we as humanity progress we see this in mass adopted software and social media and so like all these things have a massive impact on the world today. So you know 1 plus 1 equals two is give the give them the tools and they will build.
(27:27) Well, it goes both ways, too, right? There's a it's a double-edged sword because it can be used for good and bad. And so, how do you how do you view that the that particular nature of this beast that we're working with? Because it seems like we're in an arms race to avoid >> the digital panopticon and sure that we can leverage free and open source software tools that preserve privacy, sovereignty, and um the ability to operate outside the the wall gardens.
(27:57) I mean, it's I'm almost getting goosebumps thinking back to our previous conversation in the jungle now because we're kind of closing the loop and it had a similar um we talked about similar topics uh a year and a half ago, but things were so different back then that it felt like you know and here's what I want to say actually about your question is the good usually comes from the many whereas the bad comes from the few but the the bad from the few usually has all the resources that they need to, you know, build a centralized social media
(28:31) platform that conquers the entire world. So although everyone has improved their skills, I think it's like vastly disproportional in how much it has helped the many it we are way more people who want to see good in the world than those who want to see bad in the world. And we as you know the the mass of people have increased our ability disproportionately more than the large mega corporations who can also now use VIP coding. All right. Okay.
(29:04) You can use VIP coding now too. But they were able to do anything that they want anyway because of you know large amount of resources. But this technological shift has benefited especially those with uh smaller resources or smaller teams and individuals. And so my hope I'm I'm very hopeful because I hope that I I know that there are more good people than bad people in the world.
(29:31) And those good people now have way more tools to express themselves, to actually change the world and to show us their vision of the world and and and inspire others. So I'm I'm way more optimistic in that regard than one and a half years ago because uh we have now the the way more powerful weapons in uh that we can use to fight against uh um OP surveillance or uh repression and like the digital panopticum as you as you call it.
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(32:07) Patented technology, special operations approved. It has free shipping as well. So go check it out. And to your point about just figuring out what your skill is, what you're good at, for example, like what I view my contribution to to this space is just the ability to observe uh and curate. And so that's what I've been using my agent to do is just at the media company is observe and curate.
(32:30) So have it running all these um cron jobs to surface information that I think people aren't getting enough exposure to and then I can then curate that and put it in a podcast or a newsletter um or um share it on social media and it's been incredibly impactful. like the the amount of um sort of output that we've been able to push out over the last couple couple of months is has increased I think at least five maybe 10x um just because we have these tools available.
(33:02) And so now when I'm thinking of TFTC, it's like, okay, I want a CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News, but for freedom tech and uh sort of economic um economic storylines that people aren't getting in the mainstream. And I think it's it's um I think it's successful. We're like two weeks into this 5day a week newsletter um that we've been putting out with the help of our agent and I've got a ton of response.
(33:32) It's like, hey, I love the mix of content. I haven't heard these stories. And so that's been a signal to me like, okay, these tools are working for my particular niche in the media world. Um and I think on that note, it took me like a few weeks to really like downloaded Claudebot, started working with it. And it took me like a week or two of understanding how its memory works and basically what it could do pushing it to its limits exploring the territory which it operates in where um after a week and a half two weeks I was like okay here's how how I can use that
(34:04) this um but it took experimentation. Um, the point I bring this up is to ask you like in terms of like practical first steps for anybody listening to this who isn't experimenting with these technologies like how do you think they should approach using this stuff? >> Um, I I want to start with especially like the security aspect first.
(34:28) So um you should be aware that using agents on your computer uh or with your personal accounts can go terribly wrong. So that is something you know that's the first thing you could think about. We're not at a place yet where you know some highly polished experience exists made by you know a large company or something that is uh fully safe to use.
(34:54) And to be honest I also don't think that that will happen anytime you know very soon at least not very soon because um these agents are just too kind of powerful to put them in a box yet. So um so first what you do is you set it up. You can set it up on your own machine uh sorry on a separate machine let's say a Mac mini is the is the trend or you can also use a service that runs it for you and uh one of them is Chloe AI C L A Wii.
(35:26) ai AI and um there the process is basically super simple to set up an agent. You make a subscription, you pay for it monthly and there's like AI credits invol included and uh off you go and then it starts and the next step is to connect it to one of your like messengers that you want to use in order to interact with it.
(35:46) So then you're set up and you have your own personal agents that you can ask questions about. And like what I what I do what I do is think about things that I wish I had someone like a like my own personal human agent basically do things for me. So one of them could be accounting bookkeeping for example that's one thing but uh we in cash we run a large organization as I said we need to basically have something that uh can observe progress that is also something that many people use is having a bot that just observes things and writes reports on it and in your
(36:23) case it can be news for example and in my case is pull requests and issues on GitHub for example and um And lately what we've been experimenting especially with Chloe uh in order to make our operation more efficient is to pick off kind of jobs that we would have hired someone for where we can you know carve out some specific aspect where we think this is safe and nothing can go wrong there if you automate this part for example observing something and then build like a dedicated bot just with with those skills and and in the case of
(37:01) Chloe. We run our infrastructure on a system called Kubernetes. It's a it's a fairly common advanced provisioning system where you know the cloud basically is Kubernetes and um you have like experts for for that. Obviously there's like people who know Kubernetes in and out and uh you can pay them to do a certain job for you.
(37:27) Uh but you also now we have these agents that know Kubernetes really really well as well. So, and if you plug in a relatively good LLM into it, say you use Sonnet um 4.6 or even Opus or something, you kind of you kind of get to a better than junior person in that specific job that just works for you 24/7. And that's what we've been doing.
(37:54) So we have this DevOps agent that lives with in a in a signal chat with us and I can ask the the bot in you real human language hey how's everything looking you know are there any problems with our cluster and then it'll say yeah there are like two two people whose agents have crashed and they haven't come back for like 5 hours maybe you should look at them and just gives me further hints to any problems that might have come uh while I is doing something else.
(38:24) So like this is for our operation. It's extremely useful already today and you know I'm just thinking about let's say you run a factory, right? So you have a factory with all sorts of sensors and and and like monitoring and reporting and all of that needs to be observed like a human needs to sit there and look at that data basically to make use of it.
(38:43) And what we've been doing so far before AI is like dashboards. That's the way we we typically try to condense information. So it it's useful for us as humans. But today, you mean you can still do the dashboard. There's no problem. But you can also just plug an agent into that system that can read the raw data and it will probably come up with like even better ways to look at the data and report anything that is out of the ordinary for you.
(39:09) So, you know, just this one little thing. Again, we're just talking about one thing that it can do that it was not particularly designed to do, but it does exceptionally well. H just this one thing is by itself already huge. Imagine what it means for the industry. Well, the industry producing physical goods in real factories.
(39:30) What it means to have agents plugged in into their system that can observe everything 24/7 all the time. And that costs basically no money. I mean you pay for the LM but the the difference between a human doing that job and a bot doing that job is basically no money. So um so if I can think of like two three ways how this can be extremely useful for me.
(39:52) I know there must be millions of ways for millions and billions of people how they can make it useful for them as well. And u the nice thing about these agents is we don't need to know before what they're going to do because they're uh general purpose machines. they can probably do way more than we think that they will and they will continue improving in in the coming months and years and we'll be just like mind-b blown for the next couple years.
(40:19) I'm I'm pretty sure about that. >> Yeah, that's the crazy thing to to realize is how this thing is pretty good right now, but it's probably the worst it's going to be. >> 100%. >> It's going to get faster and better at doing what it's doing. And you know just from a software engineering perspective if you go back to level two right the agent that writes code for you in your computer.
(40:41) Right now the flow is you enter a prompt and then you wait like couple minutes and then you observe what the agent has produced. That loop will become like 100 milliseconds at some point. You will you will just enter it and press enter and it will be there instantly for you to observe and if you don't like it you can just redo everything instantly as well.
(41:00) So you know just the flow of like talking to the thing and getting something back all that is going to compress a lot in the next coming years and uh even like just the speed aspect just the performance aspect itself will open unlock new ways of working with it again. Yeah, I guess um diving into particulars of of building um products with it, whether it's the Cashew protocol, Bit Chat, um Clawy.
(41:31) ai using the AI to build that service. Um and now Numopay uh so it seems like you've been shipping at an increased clip just observing publicly and I'm assuming that you're using all these tools to to do that. I think it's a safe assumption. Um, I guess let's just talk about some of the things particularly at the intersection of of Bitcoin um, and eCash with the Cashew protocol, what you've been able to to ship that's been on your mind for for many years, I'm sure.
(42:00) >> Yeah. So, um, I I just hinted towards NFC. NS is something that I've been researching for years at this point and and I'm I'm very jealous about the fiat world in that sense that tap to pay is just an incredible user experience and everyone loves it. People use it all the time everywhere globally.
(42:23) I remember a conversation I had with Miles Miles Sudter from from Cash App where we were talking about uh Bitcoin adoption around the world and how we can improve UX for Bitcoin payments and he told me this story that doesn't leave my mind anymore which is he's somewhere in Peru in some like distant uh isolated mountain somewhere and he finds this little shack that sells him a Coke and in this like mountain somewhere in the nowhere uh the person hands him over a POS device and she takes his iPhone and he taps it and it makes beep and it takes like 3
(42:57) seconds and the payment is done. And he said like that made that thing made him more bearish than anything else with regard to Bitcoin. And that just resonated completely with me because I like that is what makes me bearish about Bitcoin as well is the user experience cuz uh if fiat feels so good like why do you even need Bitcoin? That's many what many people think how many people think.
(43:23) So obviously we need to get better in Bitcoin uh and offer at least the same experience the quality of experience or better. And I think we can do better because we're an open source system and we can you know where improvements of one thing help also the other thing. We don't need to compete. we can also collaborate and that's what we are doing with open protocols and and that's the whole idea about Bitcoin basically is just we all work on the same thing.
(43:51) So um NFC I think is a vital part. Tap to pay just works. everyone loves it and um in order to build that I needed to get like all this expert knowledge which I wasn't able to obtain over the years and I said like I was actively looking for people who can help me but found no one and so forth until um at some point I think this started all more than a year ago again with a little project I called NFC chat and that is kind of a if I think back it's kind of like a precursor of bitat Uh cuz it's like bit chat but with way
(44:27) less radius and distance. It's just a simple chat app that you run on your phone and then you write a message and you have to tap the other phone in order for the message to go from one phone to the other. So it's like a very stupid simple chat app where you need to touch the phones in order to send the message.
(44:43) And I built that as a step towards kind of NFC payments cuz with cashew and that's the chin ecash protocol that I'm working on. uh money can be sent as a bearer asset, bearer token. So that means like if you can package it in some kind of a data package and you can send it over and that could be you know uh email or telegram or SMS or whatever it is any communication channel you can make a payment.
(45:12) So I wanted to see bitcoin payments happening with tap to pay using cashew by sending the e-cash token from one phone to another and that was the first proof of concept I was able to only achieve because of AI. So I thought like that's neat awesome that's great. So this is exactly like the these are the building blocks that I was looking for for so long.
(45:33) We have Cashew as a uh protocol that we can build on that runs on Bitcoin and with this incredible uh property that if you can send data you can also send money right so that's what cash enables us and at the same time like I I just should clarify you know if we deal with money for example you know the the core libraries of cashew they're all handwritten because we like we're not at a point yet where I can safely just say that the the agent does a better job than than I do in you know figuring out what could go wrong or how you could lose money and so on. So
(46:06) that's very important to us is the critical parts are handwritten normal programmed libraries and that's what usually a cache library is but once you have that once it's running once it works then you can build all the scaffolding around it by coding like there's nothing that can go wrong basically because the library itself works you know that you won't lose ecash uh so now let's build an app around it so we started with this NFC chat sending around e-cash tokens and and showed like okay this is possible and then this
(46:38) ultimately ended like culminated in something uh in a project we called Numo. We've been working on this for a couple months at this point uh in stealth mode. We haven't announced it to anyone until like yesterday. And Numo is our approach uh to to introduce tap to pay to Bitcoin using e-cash because with eCash it has this you know very simple flow of data flowing from one phone the payer to the receiver the POS device.
(47:08) So NUMO runs on a normal Android POS. I have one here. I can show it for example. This is this is a standard POS that runs Android but um it can also be any Android device any Android phone. So it needs to be an Android phone because um iOS doesn't allow you to use the NFC chip in in that way. So the the POS device itself by of the merchant runs Numo and then any other phone and now this can be iOS or Android doesn't matter can basically just tap to pay to it and if it runs a cash wallet then the cash wallet will see that there's an NFC
(47:45) chip and then take the token and send it over to to the Ps and why is this cool because first of all it is it's using uh eCash generally cash privacy it inherits inherits this incredible privacy by default. So this is while the UX is amazing, you also have the best privacy possible, which is a great, you know, combination.
(48:09) Usually you have a trade-off there. And um, you know, the the next best thing is that it works offline. So as a as a payer, so the the device paying at the POS uh could be your iPhone, your Android, doesn't need internet to make that actual payment because all you're doing is you take e-cash from your wallet and you send it over NFC without touching the internet.
(48:30) So that that also gives you incredible privacy obviously because you're not even online. But it also means that it just works everywhere. And that's again one point that fiat payments already have been doing for years that if you do tap to pay with your credit card or if you do tap to pay with your phone, it also works while you're offline because your phone doesn't talk to the internet.
(48:50) It it kind of hands something like a token from the phone to the POS device in fiat land. And so we're doing now the same in Bitcoin land, but with incredible privacy and open protocol. And so the way it works today is you can install Numo on your Android device or on your QS device. It can be any generic uh QS device and you can set up a cashew mint. So cash is a custodial system.
(49:16) You need to trust the mint operator with the bitcoin that you receive. Um so you set up one or more mints and then any payer from any mint. It can be like even if we don't share that mint, you can still pay with the e-cash to the device and then the device will take that e-cash and withdraw with lightning to their mint.
(49:36) So anything all the mints are still interoperable because we have lightning that glues everything together. And uh you can receive payments from basically any mint out there. And we've built a cool feature into Numu. Um, obviously realizing recognizing that it's custodial, there is a there's a rug risk associated with the mint that you're using.
(49:57) So, you should only be using mints that you trust already. Um, but in Numu, there is a very simple way to say like if uh we ever reach 50,000 Satoshi's for example, you can enter a lightning address there and it will just automatically withdraw to that lightning address whenever you reach the threshold. So that way you can build this POS in a way that the you know the maximum amount that you put in custodial risk can be very limited and so uh you can also withdraw every single payment if you like but at you know for very small payments it does might not make uh
(50:30) sense. Um so we've we've just released this yesterday. You can find it on uh numopay.org orc and download it, check it out and we'll be working on a GTC pay integration uh soon. We've already started working with that. So, it also worked with existing BTC pay server uh infrastructure. But if you don't want that uh you can just download the Nunob app itself.
(50:57) It doesn't need any back end. There's nothing that you need to install or set up. Just install the app, choose a mint and you're done. So, check it out. >> Yeah, I mean I completely agree. I remember Miles telling me that same story too. And I think the offline nature of the the ability to send Cashew, excuse me, eCash via the Cashew protocol offline is massive.
(51:20) You think Miles in that mountain in Peru like his cell phone probably didn't have service, but the secure enclave had his credentials for his card in he was just able to send it to the POS and make the payment probably offline, I'm assuming. Um, and now we have feature par via um via eCash now. And I guess what do you want to see in terms of um like what or what do you what do we need to see for this to become more prominent? Is a wallet sort of integration of the NFC standards? Um is it proliferation of just simply more ecash wallets? Um what
(51:57) wallets work with it now? Like macadamia, I'm pretty sure I could use macadamia on iOS. And just to clarify, for for the iOS stuff, you can pay with iOS, but running the POS to receive via NFC is something that you can't do. >> That's right. Exactly. To receive, you need an Android phone, but paying you can do it with any phone.
(52:17) So, um, yeah, as I said, Macadmia, but there already, um, we've worked in the background and we've added this NFC capability to around like six or seven different cash wallets at this point. The most of the popular cash wallets already support this uh from day one. And u but NUMO also supports bare lightning. So you don't need to have a cash wallet in order to use NUMO.
(52:41) Uh obviously that would limit the number of people who can pay with that uh terminal. So uh it's it supports lightning just out of the box as well. And you can use any lightning wallet to scan the QR code. And some lightning wallets, particularly Phoenix, can also use tap to pay um for lightning.
(53:02) So it would kind of fetch the lightning invoice via NFC and then pay that over the internet. So it is compatible with all the wallet infrastructure out there. But like generally the thing that um limits growth in bitcoin today is the util the not the utility but I want to say the penetration of bitcoin itself. So I'm very well aware of the fact that well our technology can only grow as fast as bitcoin can grow and when I say grow bitcoin I mean people using bitcoin not the price going up.
(53:39) So our ultimate goal with Numo is to further Bitcoin as money. That's like that's our main northstar goal for everything that we do is to support the adoption of Bitcoin for everyday payments around the world. So um the infrastructure for that is being built out and there are great projects out there. For example, we've noted we've noted etc pay server.
(54:04) So anyone could could already use some form of onchain payment or lightning payment with several existing solutions out there. But um what's I think what's most needed today is is kind of a penetration in real economic transactions and we need more merchants to use Bitcoin and I think that Cash App is doing an amazing job there.
(54:34) I should say Square uh to be more precise is Square is doing an amazing job there. There's BTC map that you can use to find merchants. Um there's obviously BTC pay server which is the most popular kind of web checkout system that the Bitcoin ecosystem has produced. And so these all these projects help towards the same goal. And we now support that effort as well using uh NUMO and our you know NFC capable payment systems that we that we built.
(55:06) If you want to support this in your Bitcoin wallet, uh what you can do is first of all look at all the NFC specs that exist in Bitcoin. You can read liking invoices by NFC. If your app doesn't support that yet, think about integrating that. If you want truly, you know, the the tap to pay offline instant experience that Cashew can give, then you can also just plug in a cashew library into your Lightning wallet and and pay with eCash for that single step.
(55:36) It doesn't even need to be a full-fledged casual wallet. You can just like that single one step that you want from Bitcoin to ecash. You can also do that in order to support tap to pay. So there are a couple of wallets working on that. And generally speaking, I think as a community, as a bigger project in Bitcoin, we need to um help get Bitcoin more onto the radar of merchants and and hope and drive the adoption of real um brick and mortar stores.
(56:11) So that's that's what that's what we want to contribute to. >> I completely agree and thank you for your focus on this. It's funny too cuz uh when we last recorded I think I asked what your archetypal cashew user was and you said uh a woman in the jungle selling selling mangoes and I think uh I think with Numopay and projects like a BTC pay server I think that's going to proliferate obviously what Square is doing here in the United States for their merchants I mean merchant adoption because of Square's roll out at the end of last
(56:45) year went literally parabolic I think there was something like uh 2500 merchants on BTC Map. There's probably more than them um in the United States that haven't put their um put their store on BTC Map.org. But um I think the way Square rolled it out and Cash App in collaboration with them rolled it out. They automatically added all these merchants and went from like 200 to over 6,000 over the course of a month, >> which is great to see.
(57:15) Um, shifting gears back to this intersection of AI in Bitcoin and particularly Cashew. I mean, that's a big topic of discussion right now, particularly in our world. Um, and in the fintech world as well, is a agents using using payments on the network uh, excuse me, using uh, payments with each other to to complete tasks on behalf of the humans sending them out to do things.
(57:41) And >> I think it's a wide open landscape right now. I think you have Visa, Mastercard working on their own protocols. You have Stripe. Then obviously you have stable coins, Bitcoin over Lightning. I saw that the guys at uh at Arc Labs launched um the the ability to receive stable coins and automatically turn them into VTXOs via their ARC protocol implementation.
(58:02) And then obviously we have ecash and um cash specifically with the nut 402 protocol. And I think you've made the case that due to the sort of error nature of eCash and the fact that you can send the file that it's actually um the most efficient way for agents to make payments. Is that correct characterization? >> Yeah.
(58:25) So that was just like from from our experience what instantly worked. It it was extremely simple. It was almost shockingly simple to teach an agent how to use Cashew cuz we basically told him, you know, here's your CLI and the CLI it will produce cashew tokens and you take the token and do something with it depending on what you're doing and instantly got that and because you know you don't have this get an address here, check your balance there, send uh sign and send um you have these packets of data that the agent can simply send in an HTTP request for example. So what
(58:59) today you know like getting back to the original um question or the the idea of 402 payments or agent payments I think it's a very hot topic today we're still yet to see how much of that sticks because we're in this like discovery mode of agents what should they do how much money would you give them how dependable are they with the money that you give them and so on there are stories out there of an agent like sending a random stranger 350K or something because he he backed him online and the agent made like a
(59:33) single mistake and the person who owns that agent lost a substantial amount of money due to that. Uh cuz they were kind of you know trying it all I guess. So um how much of that really manifests we will see but it is clear that the the big ones and I you you mentioned them the big fiat one uh the big fiat monsters like Mastercard and Visa and also Stripe are looking into it.
(59:58) So what frustrated me a lot looking at this is that the 402 idea uh the the idea that we will have services online that ask for money. So you want kind of your machine to be able to pay another machine is a very Bitcoin driven topic has been a Bitcoin driven topic in the last years you know for the last whatever 10 years or so.
(1:00:23) The only people who talked about this were Bitcoiners cuz we we always thought of ourselves and still think of ourselves as the native currency of the internet. So obviously the connection there is pretty direct and um there's been development from Lightning Labs on L42. Um we've been contributing to 402 with uh X42 and Cashu payments.
(1:00:46) The Albi guys have been working on this as well. So, it was kind of only this niche topic until the agent came a couple months ago and then you saw Coinbase working on it, Stripe working on it, uh the credit card providers working on it because they they all seem to agree that you know payments of machines to machines will be a thing and the the rails that they uh that they market or or want to see being used are usually stable coins and stable coins stable coins have the benefit of feeling um more natural to people.
(1:01:25) I think I think like the cognitive leap to use a stable coin is way smaller than uh the cognitive leap to use Bitcoin cuz the stable coin is denominated in the same currency that you already use. So it feels like you're still just doing the same thing but now in a kind of a digital way or something.
(1:01:45) So the stable coin people have been have been pushing really hard to make sure that the agents of the future will use uh USDC or USDT or whatever it is. Uh obviously I'm I don't want to see that future happening because I I think you know it just furious fiat system and stable coins are inherently trustbased and there's all sorts of problems uh with that.
(1:02:12) you you need KYC to get in and out and all these problems with civil coins that Bitcoin doesn't have. Bitcoin just is born on the internet and lives on the internet and it doesn't leave the internet. which stays inside the internet. And so uh that's why Bitcoin is still the native currency of the of the internet.
(1:02:30) And uh several projects in the Bitcoin space have been trying to you know also rival this new trend and make sure at least that we're that we're up there with the others and uh can show that we um you know that we that we show up and that we're ready to compete with them. And uh one example is is the art protocol that I think is is a fantastic idea to to use.
(1:02:58) I I've checked it out already and it works really well. And uh another way of doing it for you know even smaller transactions and high frequency transactions is just amazing for it because it's basically instant basically free and uh with insane privacy. All of these factors I think are super important especially in an agentic word world.
(1:03:19) So, um, eCash is just something that that that works really really well with with agents. >> Yeah. And particularly in a world where the subject of ID verification on the internet is becoming more prominent, I think the ability to opt out and have these internet native options that don't require KYC at the edges like stable coins are are imperative because it seems like the the digital ID conversation is definitely beginning to pick up again.
(1:03:50) >> Every stable coin is permissioned. All of them can be turned off if they don't like your digital ID. >> Yeah. Um I want to be respectful of your time because I know I pinged you uh in the afternoon yesterday to do this and you were gracious enough to do this last minute, but to end it uh love getting philosophical with you last year when we spoke.
(1:04:14) Uh you really dove into how you view yourself as an artist in the digital world and I think um what you've done since then has proven that to be true. But thinking about the proliferation of these AI tools and humans beginning to interact with these at an accelerating pace. Um what are your hopes for the future? Obviously the the meme of the permanent underclasses here, the meme of the singularity and Skynet having been launched already uh and we'll only recognize it in retrospect is beginning to permeate.
(1:04:41) What what is your view for how these tools affect our humanity? Oh, that's a that's a big one because um so first first I'll start with my craft and I hinted towards this already in the beginning of our conversation today but it's been it's been amazing to watch how things can change and in a way and in a pace that no one would have predicted.
(1:05:06) the the penetration, the proliferation of AI in society was always predicted to have uh the most negative influences on you know the old kind of manual job markets and the plumber and the robots will come and they everyone will lose their jobs and so on which I think is still a risk but I wouldn't have like predicted myself that programmers would be the ones who are affected first or even the most and I think probably will be the most.
(1:05:43) So we are at a time you know zooming out that software engineers had this incredible run in the last decade or two and make astronomical sums of money and still software engineering you know the the salaries associated with it kind of like still detached from rest of society. So we have been seeing a decoupling of the what you just you know maybe called the permanent underclass and the the Silicon Valley uh upper class but I am you know I what I see is what's happening right now is changing that drastically and I think that's maybe for
(1:06:27) the better because uh software engineering has never changed this fast before and has become just way more accessible to many many more people. It's not this exclusive skill anymore that you have to acquire yourself by decades and decades of working on your own and acquiring you know all these special skills that you can then use to find a job for example.
(1:06:54) So what I just uh every software engineer out there who still didn't get it, I just want to say it again. You will lose your job in 5 years. You're you're done if you're not using AI like I'm I'm sure of this and I cannot say this about like another job category just yet. So I think it's just a um let's say let's see it's it's ironic that today's in today's world the plumber and the carpenter and you know manual labor folks are I think more valuable than ever before and have more security about their jobs than ever before relative to the rest of
(1:07:40) society. So that is something to think about. Uh it's just it's almost beautiful to see it happen this way. And at the same time, you know, getting a bit more philosophical on this is when I when we last talked, I spoke of software engineering as something like an art form where if you have the energy to produce and you have the skill, then you can really affect the world with your ideas, which is ultimately how I think, you know, what what drives art itself is finding ways to materialize your thoughts.
(1:08:18) That can be a book or a painting. Uh but it can also be software. And although you know we're we're in this in this renaissance of software development, we're seeing that the you know the brush really doesn't matter as much as we thought it would anymore. So the the the the manual part of it is just completely changing.
(1:08:43) But that means that the rest of software development is becoming more important. So now now that everyone can write software or those who can write software before can write even more software. Software just becomes kind of like this disposable artifact of your activity. So what matters now is why why do you do what you do? And that makes things a bit more complicated as a human to figure out why you do something or what you should be doing.
(1:09:18) What's a good thing to do? You know, what makes sense to do those require completely different set of skills to figure out good answers to these questions than just like learning Postgress and and and C and whatever. Right? So now you now it's about ideas and execution. Some people say taste and aesthetics. Um, but I also think about communication and marketing and trying to explain to people why you do certain things and why they should be interested in it.
(1:09:57) So all of these like way more human things and uh way more soft scale things are suddenly at the center of software development and so I think that is just that's that's the reason why everything is going to change and it's changing right now. So we might see a new wave of of software. We might see a new wave of cyber culture emerge because because of these changes that we're experiencing right now.
(1:10:28) >> Yeah, we may find that uh all the fears of our humanity being stripped from us are actually completely wrong and the technology forces us to explore our own humanity and bring it out via our creative endeavors in the the world of projectionist software. There's this idea that you know um it's popular in this universal basic income circles about what do you do once you have everything you need? What do you do if you don't have the work anymore? And it forces us as humans to really answer that question. I think that question is
(1:11:07) important whether UBI has arrived or not, right? whether everything is fully automated or not. You should be asking yourself this question like 10 years ago and today you're forced to ask that question. If you're a software engineer, you'll literally forced today. If you're not a software engineer, you'll be forced in like 5 years to answer that question, maybe in 10.
(1:11:33) And the good thing is that we're getting more prosperous as a society. Hopefully, at least we can hope. I mean, if we if this doesn't turn into a dystopia, but the good news is that we'll have more time on our hands, more life quality on our hands to think about the more important questions like who do we want to be? What is the goal of all our actions? How do we want to live in a society? What what should this world look like? So, there's room for there's room for new ideas and it's the most exciting times to be alive.
(1:12:05) >> It really is. It really is. And I'm happy that uh you have that perspective as somebody I respect in the world of software development. It's great to see that you're optimistic about this. Uh thank you for all you've done. I mean from Bit to Cashi Protocol now pay claw.ai making this aentic world more accessible for other people who I think should be experimenting with this.
(1:12:31) It's uh it's insane to see what you've shipped and since we last recorded. So keep it up brother. >> Thank you. And I want to forward all of those great words that you just shared with me also to the team uh which I you know which did most of that work and we are a great developer team with incredible people who are working on cashew day and night and we all just want to see Bitcoin uh succeed.
(1:12:58) And I also want to you know use this dance to talk to the people who are listening out there thinking you know what should I do? How can I help? How can I help improve uh this world we live in is I you know this is a a uh Bitcoin is a free and open source system that lives off the contributions of people like you and if people don't choose to work on Bitcoin Bitcoin stops working it will die so I hope that you know there's at least one person out there who thinks like I've been a software engineer all my life and I'm
(1:13:38) fed up with this job and I want to do something else to consider you consider becoming a Bitcoin developer and help with you know help us with uh driving these freedom technologies forward because uh no one else is doing it. There is no one except this circle of people that we've talked about trying to counteract uh the the the massive growth of surveillance technology and centralized control and uh so if you feel that you need or you can change something in your life and you you want to contribute your energy towards something good please
(1:14:19) please join us and become a Bitcoin developer become a cash developer look at chat, look at all the other projects that are out there and and contribute. >> If not you, then who? Ally, it's been a pleasure, sir. >> Likewise. Thank you, Marty. >> Peace and love, freaks. >> Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.
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(1:15:26) Thank you for your time and until next time.
