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Bitcoin Mining Revolutionizing Home Heating with Alex Busarov

Jun 19, 2024

Bitcoin Mining Revolutionizing Home Heating with Alex Busarov

Bitcoin Mining Revolutionizing Home Heating with Alex Busarov

Key Takeaways

Preston Pysh explores the innovative intersection of energy use, bitcoin mining, and home appliances with Alex Busarov, founder of Heatbit, which has developed the Trio—a bitcoin mining rig that also serves as a home heating device. This dual functionality converts mining energy into heat, potentially allowing homeowners to cover their electricity bills while heating their homes. The Trio integrates seamlessly into home environments with a low noise level of 40 decibels and addresses development challenges from supply chain disruptions to securing advanced mining chips. By decentralizing bitcoin mining, Heatbit empowers individuals to contribute to the process, enhancing the network's resilience and security, while its user-friendly software ensures accessibility for those without prior mining experience.

Best Quotes

  1. "Whatever goes into mining turns into heat. The energy doesn't disappear; it changes form. So electric energy becomes heat."
  2. "You're using a valuable resource, energy, for two things at the same time. That's kind of smart."
  3. "The strength of the community was an amazing surprise. The amount of trust that people put into us, it's incredible."
  4. "Anything that could go wrong will go wrong, and then there's going to be even more things that you didn't think could go wrong."
  5. "With centralized mining, there's just so many issues that you could have... But then you split this and people going to heat their homes, they're not going to sell off. Irrespective, like, bitcoin price goes to $1,000 tomorrow, people will still heat their home, right. They will still support the network."
  6. "If people don't pay for something or you don't have a business model to whatever you've built, then it's hard to get the resources to grow it."
  7. "The advice would be to try and test [your business idea] as early as possible, ideally before you invested much in building."
  8. "How does science develop? Does it go this way? Does it go that way? What do we consider truth?"


This podcast episode highlights Heatbit's Trio, an innovative device that combines bitcoin mining with home heating, emphasizing efficient energy use and the benefits of decentralizing mining. Alex's insights reveal the entrepreneurial challenges and broader implications of merging technology and energy to create a more resilient financial system.


00:00:00 - Intro
00:01:05 - The journey of creating the world's first Bitcoin-mining heater.
00:06:48 - The challenges faced in developing Heatbit One and Heatbit Trio.
00:10:24 - How the "heating-by-computing" principle works.
00:19:59 - The vision for placing a Bitcoin-mining device in every home.
00:24:42 - The future of decentralized Bitcoin mining.
00:30:57 - The environmental impact of traditional Bitcoin mining.
00:33:58 - Insights into the intersection of Bitcoin mining, home heating, and air purification.


(00:00) (00:00) hey everyone this episode is brought  to you by river the place that I personally go   to securely invest in Bitcoin with confidence and  with zero fees sometimes people think that if it's   a heater M and some electricity or some electric  energy is going to go into heating and some is   going to go into mining that's incorrect whatever  goes into mining turns into heat the energy   doesn't disappear it changes for so electric  energy becomes heat you're using a valuable   resource energy put two things at the same (00:36) time boy I'm excited to have this  
(00:39) conversation Alex I've seen the hardware I've  been around the hardware you and I have had   quite a few conversations uh historically and  I am thrilled to have this conversation for our   audience to hear this so welcome to the show  thank you thank you I'm I'm glad to you you   said you've seen it uh you've seen it working uh  but you didn't say that you've heard it because   it was actually quite quiet so please I'm joh  it is quiet and uh for anybody that's wanting 
(01:04) (01:04) to know uh so first of all this is  a mining rig that heats your house and uh   you know it looks like a traditional dice almost  like a Dyson uh air filter that you'd put in the   corner of your room for people that uh haven't  seen it or know what we're talking about and   you're talking about how loud it was in on the  website you have it listed that it's 40 DB which   is the equivalent of somebody for people that  don't know what 40 deel this is the equivalent   of somebody Whispering of how quiet this is (01:37) so I would this is equivalent to what  
(01:40) how loud a Dyson is correct uh as far as sound  goes uh yeah yeah uh exactly we the way that we've   thought about building um our devices like the  trio uh which used to be called mini but that's   another story um happy to cover at some point  uh is it's it's it's going to be a home device   a premium home device primarily so it's going to  fit all the expectations and people expect that   if you heat in your room you kind of need to be  able to um sleep in that room sometimes right so 
(02:11) (02:12) you need to be able to sleep next to it  so it it cannot be loud and actually the whole   way that he bit started um it started with with  a bit of a noise um it was it was 20120 I was   getting bored in my flat in Shanghai we were on on  the lockdown the co started right I bought myself   a toy uh which happened to be an ant minor s9k um  and it's to play it wasn't to mind professionally   in any capacity it was just in the toy um for  me and I turn it on in my in my bedroom and   really loud so they go up to 80 DB um yeah and (02:51) for people who don't know what you know  
(02:53) the scale of the decibel 40 and 80 it's not like  80 is double or 40 right it's just number is a   double but of the noise 80 is the noise that if  you if you expose to 80 to an extended period   of time it can actually damage your hearing yeah  so you better not so kind of I I got got the ant   mine it turn it on it got really loud and then  they get it got really hot and then immediately   the idea popped out that well if it wasn't  that loud it would actually be a brilliant  (03:21) heater and then you know the whole  thing actually started I love it I love it um  
(03:27) I'm just going to if people are watching this  on on YouTube I am pulling up the website uh   so that they can kind of see what this looks  like because it's really slick like I don't   know who your designer was when building this  thing but I'll tell you what you guys had your   act together um and so yeah people on YouTube you  can see it's very cylindrical uh pretty much you   know if you went and bought an air air filter it (03:53) looks like that it's about the same size  
(03:55) as an air filter that you'd put in the corner of  your room very Sleek very Sleek um but yeah so   you're able to heat so you're looking at this  very early days and um you're saying I'm just   you know I need to heat this room anyway so  I why don't I just turn that into money this   basically the premise of the idea right so a  lot of people have this misconception I want   to clear it on every podcast any public speech  that that I do um sometimes people think that  (04:29) um if it's a heat M then then some  electricity or some electric energy is going  
(04:33) to go into heating and some is going to go  into mining that's incorrect whatever goes   into mining turns into heat right it's the just  the law the energy doesn't doesn't uh disappear   it changes for so electric energy becomes heat  whether you use regular coil whether you use   silicon chip doesn't really matter percentage  wise is there hearing that Alex not to interrupt   you but when they're hearing that they're (04:57) saying okay so the energy is plowed   through the 5 nanom chips which is what  you're using and it's converted that energy  
(05:04) is converted into heat what percentage of that  is turned into heat uh 100% 100% overall uh if   like the more technically engineering client  people would say well it's not technically   100 because there's a fan there's vibration  there's light Etc first it's going to be a   very tiny amount of that uh but secondly that  also becomes heated top Point as well so wow   all it's just all gravy then really what (05:33) you're getting at yeah it's it's   it's just smart you're using think you're using  a valuable resource energy put two things at the  
(05:42) same time that's that's kind of smart so then the  argument to the person who's hearing this is well   you've got to heat your house for most people  that's you know five six months out of the year   or whatever it might be um and so if you're going  to burn that energy to create heat why not do   it and mine uh Bitcoin and and make money while (06:04) you're doing it is the argument correct   yeah yeah exactly ways to think about it uh some  people well you know less Bitcoin at clients they  
(06:14) would think about it as oh I can get some um  subsidy or you know cover part of my electric   bill and that's fine you know depending on your  power rate you'd have somewhere between 30 to   Almost 100% of electricity bill covered um but  then some more of the um you know more Bitcoin and   client people would think well I'm just getting  fre sets which is also an okay thing way an  (06:40) okay way to think about it so yeah uh  it makes sense you know it's just one of those   things that just makes sense yeah what was one  of the challenge in the early days so you get  
(06:51) this idea and then it's like all right now  I have to actually start building this thing   and talk us through some of the early days of  heat bit and some of the challenges that you   faced with some of the early prototyping oh  um so we actually went through a lot of the   prototypes at some point the way that you develop  Hardware is that you have a new prototype every  (07:12) week or so like with some incremental  changes and some of the bigger changes um the   first version um that we that worked on it didn't  even work as a prototype like it would just  
(07:24) overheat uh the second kind of concept which also  had like 100 different it um it was based on and   I used ant Miner S9 um and we had so many problems  with it it's it's unbelievable so starting from uh   the fact that it was the co times and things like  the supply chain wouldn't really work because some   of the ships would not go some of the planes (07:52) would not fly it's just where do we   get all the components you know um so  and that led to a lot of delays uh Plus   uh with Hardware uh even if you find a small  problem um the time to fix it can take like  
(08:07) three months even if it's small cuz first find  out the problem then you fix it then you test it   and then you change your molds then you change  your production process then you change your   Logistics like it's very different from software  I tell you um so uh yeah the hardware is hard I   think that's why it's called Hardware um and (08:29) you know give the weight of those   things and you know I carried it in a lot of  places I would call it heavy Weare sometimes   as well uh see um yeah but the the other CH in  terms of I mean drops aside in terms of the big  
(08:42) challenges uh H thing is access to chips yeah  that's something that took us quite a long time   and that's one of the reasons we would built on  and used Hardware at first as kind of a proof of   concept we're like wait we're just going to build  it we're going to bring something to the world  (08:57) you know we if we have to use second hand  we'll use second so that's when we we had the S9   so access to chips is a big thing getting access  to chips uh a lot of the chip manufacturers would  
(09:07) not sell the chips I've spoken to pretty much all  of the chip or mining manufacturers uh like 90%   of them all the biggest ones um because I lived  in China uh I spoken to some that you probably   never heard of I don't know if you ever heard of  ebang as as a some yeah you know guys like that   I spoke to and somehow you know the community is (09:29) actually s side that you can get access to   you know the founders and the spos Fairly easily  um but still no one would sell the chips but then  
(09:37) we found the way and we managed to actually get  the the um latest generation uh brand new Chips   one the one major supplies and uh that's how  we built the trio um I think apart from that   it's um the safety right because it's it's not  just a minor Min is an industrial device yeah   right and you it's it's in the warehouse  you have maintenance you have like people  (10:02) overlooking it 24/7 um that's one  environment when you build a home heza it's a very   different environment where you have like cats  and dogs you know with pet hair you know you have  
(10:12) kids running around and it's very different uh  robustness that you need and very different safety   requirements that you got so these are the kind  of things to to look out for and that's something   that we work on lot to one of the things that I'm  really Blown Away with is this 5 nanometer chip   so this is size-wise for people this is like what (10:31) they have in iPhone 14s um very Advanced   uh lithography process in order to create a 5  nanometer chip do you see uh obviously I think  
(10:43) your connection like what you just said in China  helped you be able to secure and and procure that   do you find that with AI and everything that's  taking place that be gaining access to these   types of advanced chips is going to be difficult  for miners moving forward or do you think that   the demand is going to drive because there's going  to be such a large demand for Bitcoin miners uh in  (11:05) the future walk us through some of that  Supply demand Dynamic with respect to the chips  
(11:09) um so you you've got the structure of the market  is that you've got the companies that design the   chips and there are quite a few uh you've got  the companies that actually manufacture the   chips and this kind of lithography 5 n a meter  and uh and smaller there's only two places that   make them there's a couple more Fabs that are  coming online in the US in the next few years   but right now there's just one in South (11:35) Korea and and one in Taiwan and   uh they have you know they're busy uh they have  companies like apple like bitmain like many others  
(11:45) competing uh for uh for the production time I  imagine I don't know but I imagine when block   is developing their 3 nanom chips they are having  to compete with guys like bitmain and Apple and   you know many others for the same Fab so that's  not an easy task and you know thank God block is   doing that so that they could you know kind of  kind of provide and and sell the chips once once  (12:11) they come um come on the market uh to help  guys like us buil more devices um I think that's  
(12:19) that's going to be wonderful that's that's a  big thing that they're doing for for Bitcoin   money um when it comes to uh AI I'm not an  expert on AI chip actually don't know what   what kind of um Tech they use uh but the AI chips  are very very different uh in terms of complexity   uh compared to AIC chips right a chip is a very  small chip like the one that we use is uh about   5x 5 millim it's very small um and it does (12:47) just one thing uh and very very   efficiently whereas AI chips are a lot more  complex and they do uh they tend to be bigger  
(12:55) in size and um I'm I'm not sure the beat for  exactly the same thing um um we see some of   the miners now going into Ai and they're like  oh we have the the power supply and we have the   energy contract that we can do AI uh let's  see if that works um I tend to be a little   skeptical at first um because my belief uh is  that right now in AI it's much more about the   cost of the chip rather than the energy whereas (13:27) in Bitcoin mining it's the other way   around used to be the cost of the hard used  to drive the whole cost of mining right now  
(13:33) it's more and more the cost of power MH so  yeah these are slightly different Industries   yeah my understanding on that front is  they're just they just don't have the   infrastructure to plug the gpus into once they  get their hands on the gpus and so there's an   opportunity for some of them to pay uh huge  premiums to just get them plugged in and get   them turned on and and doing their thing um yeah (13:59) okay on this question I'm really curious   so when you look at it holistically from the  idea that you had over there in China to do  
(14:07) this to now um what were what were a couple of  the most surprising lessons when you look back   at it that you just had no idea or that was just  like oh my God I totally missed this before I took   that first step to start working on this super  hard or complex problem one thing that actually   I think there's one one positive and one one  positive surprise one more negative surprise  (14:36) positive surprise people started buying  um the devices and they're expensive devices they   were like $1,000 each uh I'm talking about the  older proof concept version even they started  
(14:48) buying it and they started kind of spreading  the word and supporting us uh very early on   way before we had the device um and I was was  very surprised like the the amount of trust   that people put to us uh the strength of the  community that was incredible I thought wow   this is amazing like it's the uh obviously  the get catching the money so we could use  (15:16) the money to develop um the devices  was helping but there's something um you you   feel some sort of a Duty you know like when  people put so much shot to you you're like  
(15:30) well we're going to make it work yeah um and  then we we had that with the first device then   the device didn't work very well now once but  now we're like oh we've built the second one   with like 20 people on the team instead of five  people on the team last time and how it works   brilliant so we're like okay now we're kind of (15:50) fulfilling our duty to the community   actually bring a good device to the market so this  this trust um and support to the community was a  
(15:58) surprise and it was an amazing surprise that  was super super uh now you know now you know   what three four years later we see uh people  coming and seeing the trios like you've seen   the trio right you've seen you it's it's kind of  cool uh we've had people when we were in New York   we had people like uh Frank uh Cora coming and  posting Alex glin coming like oh you know this  (16:24) is so cool you know she tweet about  it uh just now one of my colleagues was um in   Norway before uh she met ja dorsy and he was  like I know about you guys you do cool stuff  
(16:35) like and it's it's so cool like the support to the  community it's amazing uh and second part which I   think was more of a negative surprise is anything  that could go wrong will go wrong and then there's   going to be even more things that you didn't  think that could go wrong and that will still   go wrong yeah like um so we were in the the (17:00) trios and uh we were about to start   shipping them and we had an early version  like an early prototype and we sh shipped   it to uh one of the YouTube influencers and uh  part of the physical structure um so like the  
(17:17) part at the bottom there's kind of a coal that  holds most of the structure it was 3D printed   uh and in 3D printing because you print in kind  of layers the strength of the structure is very   very different compared to uh to Extrusion or  or any kind of proper industrial process and   um as it shipped the the thing broke in half (17:44) right there's the metal part of the   case on one side metal part of the case on the  other side and this you know plastic in the in   the middle it broke in half so the YouTuber and  you know thanks to him he didn't go like really  
(17:56) really public with this uh because he supports us  he was like hey guys I want you to P so he pulls   this he started the recording like proper unboxing  he opens the Box takes out the device and then   you know the top part is okay but the bottom part  is kind of hanging on the wi and I go like oh my  (18:14) God but how could this happen um it's  all like we didn't test it we tested it right   we with threw it and it was okay but I guess I  guess people at UPS threw it much harder than   we did at the fact I don't know what they did  so and you're like yeah um that's difficult and  
(18:33) then it takes you like I said it takes a long time  right you're like you know is it difficult to fix   not really you just change the structure slightly  make the the the walls a little thicker but then   it takes two three months to actually make it (18:47) happen because testing testing again   industrial process yeah and then at the end  um the engineer the the guy who did all the   all the hardware instructure uh I think he  obviously got a few kicks from the team for   you know this happening uh at the end he was  the one testing the devices in China he came  
(19:07) to China to the production plan and what he  did he he kind of uh stood on his like like   like this he kind of stood on his hands on the  on the trio and was kind of shaking on it with   his feet lifted off the ground so this his whole (19:22) weight was on the device and he was like   now it works you see now it's so strong he was so  proud yeah I think we even posted it on Twitter   like the guy was so proud of those are the stories  that like when you're going through it it's just   so painful but when you look back at the entire  experience like you just can't build something  
(19:41) new that's never been done before without going  through these trials and tribulations that just   test you every moment of the way so thank  you so much for showing us that or telling  (19:51) us that story and anyone doing Hardware  they should know it's going to be hard that's   right gonna be ready for this pain yes uh  so unlike you know some devices where you're   maybe you're just building something that's uh  mechanical or physical there's a huge software   component to this um and you know if if the  software isn't online well then you're not  
(20:15) making money it's just that simple I mean it's  a huge component of of what you built walk us   through uh your thinking from a design standpoint (20:24) of how uh because you know most people   they're going to buy this they haven't they've  never minded anything before they don't know   how to do so you have to make it turn key so  talk us through your design process as you   thought about software well first of all there's  actually quite a few software components um to it  
(20:44) because generally for for any app you're going  to have two sides you have you know mobile app   and you have the server side uh for us there  also um the software that runs on the device  (20:55) itself and within that there's actually  a few places one two three places where software   is running the The Miner itself um then you know  there's the mining mining software then there's   the Control software on uh on an orange pie it's  like an Raspberry Pi think just a little smaller  
(21:15) all the connectivity and all the main controls  I'm talk talking to the mobile app um and then   there is the special um uh software that that  runs that controls the energy use not of the   minor but of the device itself so there's (21:32) there's a lot of different kind of   software that needs to talk to each other uh  but into from the user side if you look at it   from the user side we thought well um let's  make it plug-and playay uh let's make it so   we thought well if there's someone uh who who is  the miner and you know has a miner and wants to  
(21:51) do a DIY heater they probably know what to do they  probably don't need us um and you know hopefully   do they do know what they doing um so we  thought well let's let's make it PL in place so  (22:04) someone could plug it in you know connect  just like any other smart device and just start   using it um why not um and that's that's how  we built it people kind of plug it into the   the power socket then connect it um to connect  the device to to Wi-Fi and then they press the   button it can start mining um so that's that's  how we built it then um we you know showed to  
(22:29) the community who started getting feedback  and they're like uh I think about half of the   people asked can I use my own pool and at first (22:38) I didn't I didn't quite even understand   like why is it so important it was it was in in  the early days I think you know I didn't educate   myself enough and I didn't quite understand  yet why that was so important and uh one of   the people and I asked and one of the people very  generally said well there's kind of a political  
(22:57) aspect to it right if you if you choose your  own pool then in a way you can you can vote   for how Bitcoin is developing right um and we're  like well then yeah it makes sense uh and we're  (23:13) going to build it right now it's  not implemented yet uh but we have it on   the product road map so that people could you  know they could start with you know automatic   plug and play and you don't even need to choose  the pool but once you learn more about what the   pool is maybe create your own pull account and  you'll be able to switch to whichever pool you  
(23:31) like and mine to any pool that you want or solo  mine for for the meod so um that that's going   to happen that's how um how the process actually (23:41) looked uh on that on that kind of voting   and political uh Power piece uh we realize that  we're actually doing something bigger than just   smart energy use but at first for me the way it  was it it started was from the angle of energy   I had quite a bit of background and energy  and I'm like wow you know it's a valuable   resource and we're saving so much of it right  essentially we're making Zero Energy mining  
(24:10) like this Mining and you know how Bitcoin  was if Bitcoin was criticized it's either  (24:15) because the price has dropped and  someone is unhappy or um because it uses   energy and someone is unhappy about that and  we're like well but we're kind of taken that   away and it doesn't use any extra energy in this  way it's still as secure because it's by the same   energy but no martially no extra energy that  the Bitcoin mining uses and kind of application   of building so like well great but then kind of  educating myself more talking to more people um  
(24:43) learned a lot more about the decentralization (24:45) aspect of it um and in a way or at   some point this could be even more important  actually so if you think of um you know Bitcoin   as a system um is that valuable because it's that  decentralized there's no central control property   and it needs to be decentralized in many layers  there's layers like uh the mining pools but then   you know people are doing that uh I've seen the  the ocean pool the demand pool there just you know  
(25:14) few few others that are um coming out with great  solutions for that but then there's the physical  (25:20) centralization that's happening around  the big minus um and it can kind of become a   problem right especially as the the large mining  operations they tend to get bigger because of   the economies of scale right the bigger you are  the easier it is to raise money on the on NASDAQ   more money you have the better price you can  get from bit man or whoever else and then you   just become a bigger and bigger and bigger mining  operation and they understand that uh I I recently  
(25:50) saw uh frat teal talking about this and you (25:53) know thre of the CE Marathon he he   did talk about like well yeah the centralization  minus is is not good industry and we need to do   something about s to little long but what  we realize is um uh we can make mining uh   physically distributed right when it's when it's  big industrial mining operation by default the   more centralized it is the better economies  of scale they get like the bigger Warehouse   energy energy price um and energy contract  Etc um but we you you don't need like a me  
(26:30) of heat you need a kilow of heat for a room you (26:33) don't need more so by default it's going   to be physically distributed yeah um and that  becomes very very important because if you   have the physically distributed Hardware then you  can have truly physically distributed system and   then you know whatever layers you have from the  hardware all the way to how the system operates   overall uh you know the the the hardware is kind  of the base for it and the mining is the base   for it um and with centralized mining there's  just so many issues that you could have from 
(27:03) (27:04) things like the the government crackdowns  we all in you know 2021 and the mining in China   just you know disappeared in in the matter of  few weeks um then um you could have things like   control and censorship of transactions someone  doesn't like some of the transactions and well   Bitcoin transactions get sensored um and then  there are things like and actually what people   don't talk about that much is um the the  miners tend to get very leveraged maybe   not all of them um yes what they open do is  like they they have they take the uh the sell 
(27:42) (27:42) Equity get some of the money then to buy  the equipments they take a loan which is done in   US Dollars and that loan kind of depends on on  on on bitcoin price now if the Bitcoin price goes   down some the miners could go bankrupt we've seen  what happened to to coren tiffi a couple years ago   um and uh then then what the the thing that  secures the Bitcoin Network could just disappear   like that doesn't doesn't sound very comfortable  right for for someone who believes in the network  
(28:14) so this leverage and this centralization of (28:17) the mining becomes a single point of   failure from many angles but then you split  this and you know people people going to hit   their homes they're going to send it off um  the irrespective like bitcoin price goes to   um $1,000 tomorrow people will still hit the  home right they they they will still support   the network the network will still be there  whereas at you know not thousand but even at   $10,000 per Bitcoin I would guess most of the  miners will be out of business pretty quickly  
(28:48) I mean the big yeah in fact and an interesting (28:54) point recently came up with a with a   conversation um uh we were talking about how  people get introduced to bitcoin and if you   think of it most people get introduced to bitcoin  through the price people are like well I can make   money on that so I'm going to buy and then you  know it grows and I'm going to sell and that's   how people start I think yeah it starts with  speculation and I think at some people kind   of learn like oh this is actually much bigger  than I thought and then you know they go down  
(29:25) the rabbit hole and then become the (29:27) Maxis and then never saw   what I realized is when people get introduced  through the price uh there's a pretty big churn   speaking the the marketing uh marketing terms so  because the price is volatile it goes up people   arey stay and maybe they sell and leave um or  if it goes down they're like oh Bitcoin is red   poison and it's terrible and I lost money on it  and they hate it and they talk about it you know   um and that's just because the the price the  price went down um so in terms of introduction 
(29:59) (30:00) price is maybe not the best way um you  know it leaves a lot of people who get unhappy and   they leave the the community uh what we realize is  with the kind of way that we introduce people is a   bit of orange ping how many people have uh have a  heater there's few billion people who have heaters   a lot a lot let me put it this way a lot more  people have a home heater than than people who   have Bitcoin so far we're probably going to change  that um so uh if people get introduced through uh  
(30:31) like a home minor uh price doesn't matter right if (30:37) if if they heat with uh with the you know   Heats a minor then if they if the the price  of Bitcoin goes up well great if it goes down   then they make a little less but they still make  fre sad so they still cover part of the energy   bill so either way it's a positive scenario for  them so there much less of this TR MH I would   think that uh for you it would be really hard to  because I I this is the typical question I would   suspect you get from somebody all right so I  buy one of these things and I put it into my 
(31:08) (31:08) room and uh it's 30 Dees outside like  how much money am I making is or some kind type   of question like that or like how how much of  my house does this heater heat um how do you   handle that question like how do you come back  because when we're looking at it there's so many   variables like the price of Bitcoin right now  now it's let's call it 70,000 next week it could   be you know $5,000 $10,000 difference so when  you're when you're having these conversations  
(31:37) there's so many Dynamic variables at (31:39) play here is it 30° outside or   is it 50 degrees outside at your house right  so like all these things really kind of play   into how you would respond to this so how do  you handle that question um you know when you   um when I studied mathematics uh a lot of  the times when there's too much complexity   you kind of try to package together and  set it aside right and that's how you   actually solve it you know something that  looks very very complex um so uh in a kind  
(32:08) of similar way think of it in terms of the uh (32:11) scenarios and you know having the the   scenario which is always better and this this I  can I can frame it this comparing it to Dyson so   if let's say let's say you thinking of getting a  Dyson as a heater then you can get a Dyson you'll   pay um about $800 and then you'll use x amount of  energy to get x amount of heat M now if you get a   heat bit you're going to spend the same amount  of money you're going to use this x amount of  
(32:41) energy the same amount of energy that ion to  get x amount of heat the same amount of energy  (32:45) as Dyson uh but you're going to get SS  on top right now if you put it this way then   uh in this scenario when you think of getting  Dyson then the the price of Bitcoin the mining   difficulty you know what is what is going to  be in 3 years 5 years Etc it doesn't really   matter right you're anyway you're better off  um now if you're not thinking of getting a   Dyson you're thinking of getting a cheap heater  like for 50 bucks um then you're probably going  
(33:16) to be better off getting a cheap heater for 50 (33:18) bucks and buying some Bitcoin because   what people challenge me this way oh I could get  a cheap heat and you know I would make more or   I would get more Bitcoin this way it's like yeah  sure but you're going to have a cheap heater not   something that looks good comfortable to use you  know Pleasant Etc uh and I think that's that's   fair enough yeah yeah no and the framing there is  is really important for people to understand the  
(33:43) output the size and like all those types of things  and yeah I figured you had a very good response  (33:49) to that because I didn't even really  know how to ask the question I didn't even know   how to frame the question because there's so  many variables when you're thinking about that   so uh one of the things that you guys did was uh  put an air purification uh as part of the uh the   the trio talk us through the the design decision  how you guys came up with the idea to do that as  
(34:11) well sure um this is like I think a good lesson  as as most of the startups learn that sometimes   a problem can become a feature um this uh it was a (34:23) problem we're like well uh there are you   know pretty high-end Electronics ins size  there's a lot of the air flow get that gets   through uh same with you know any industrial  mining um and at some point with all the dust   and and hair and what not it gets clogged right  so then it becomes a problem because the air   doesn't flow and then it will overheat now in  an industrial setting with big miners you have  
(34:47) something called maintenance right someone  would come in would open it up and kind of   clean it with a brush and it worked again uh now (34:54) it's something that we don't really want   to you know make our users do because people  don't like doing that I hate cleaning even   my uh my vacuum cleaner right I have to so I do  but I don't like it so we're like well that kind   of sucks we we we need to do it in a different  way oh why don't we put an air purifier because   then you know it will not get clocked kind  of easier and you know the problem with um  
(35:21) with uh the the hair and dust is salt and they  like wait but then it becomes an air purifier  (35:27) as well and there's an additional  additional value that we can bring to the   user because um you know as long as we put in  a good air puy then we're like okay let's use   heer filters and you know the proper things um and  that's that's how essentially a problem ended up   being a major feature of and it's it's I I love  these kind of solutions when you have you know  
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(37:53) (37:54) com stip to schedule your free  consultation call don't delay in securing   your generational wealth the right way opt in for  security overc convenience and protect your future   your family line will thank you when I saw you  in New York I I was complimenting you on just uh   all the engineering that you took on and and  your response to me was really made me smart   because you were just like oh yeah I'm not really  an engineer and I'm like are you kidding me dude   like look at what you've accomplished why why was (38:28) that your response it just didn't make  
(38:29) any sense to me I'm just like you are such an  engineer when I'm looking at many of Engineers   I I personally worked with through the years like  this is this is off the charts from an engineering   standpoint why would you respond that way uh  uh I I think I'm maybe kind of an engineer at   heart I mean by training I I studied philosophy  in economics right it was philosophy of to be   fair so we did a lot of science stuff um but I  didn't I never had an engineering degree I think 
(38:58) (38:58) you know whatever I learn I know  I kind of learn by myself mhm but I think   it's still fair to say that I'm not an engineer  when I compare myself to the the engineers on   our team right that there me who can you know  think of the concept who can challenge and in   thing in ways that kind of make sense or at least  I hope to you know I believe that they make sense   uh but then on our team we have guys who like  they built the power turbines previously it's   the same guy who was jumping on the heit he's (39:26) he's the one who build power turbines  
(39:28) and you know when I compare you know my  engineering capacity to his I'm like I   shouldn't really call myself an engineer you  know of this guy and and and many of the others   on the team so I I think you know again framing  you're too humble sir you're too humble there's   a lot of people that listen to this that are  younger in college um that want to start their   own company from an entrepreneurial standpoint  um what advice can you give that person that uh  (39:59) you've learned through this and just  other life experiences as a builder um I think  
(40:05) few main ones uh from the personal standpoint try  to do something that you actually like um I I was   just messaging our team um on some some of the  things that we achieved over the over the past   few months and I was telling them I I I love to  build things and I like to see them work and I was   telling them how it's not necessarily it's not  all about the money like it's not like growing   the the capitalization of the company uh the (40:37) money is necessary and it should be a   business model because that can sustain the  the business and it can make it grow more  
(40:44) people use what you build uh but what I'm you  know excited about at heart and our our team   is excited about as well is building something  that people use um so and that excitement goes   a long way so stop with something that you're  excited about and it could be anything right   maybe it's something about social media maybe it's  something about Bitcoin maybe it's something about  (41:06) Hardware just if you're genuinely excited  about something that's that's really really good  
(41:12) um and it's going to drive you a long way um  and two I would say and this is where most   of the most of the startups fail is when people  build something and maybe build something horri   and build something wonderful but people don't  use it um or or people don't pay for it now if   you people don't pay for it maybe it's still  okay uh but the problem with that is that if   people don't pay for something or you don't (41:40) have a business model to whatever you   have built then it's hard to uh scale it it  HS it's it's hard to get the resources again  
(41:49) you know payment and the money it's it's the  resource to to make it work at a bigger scale   so you can't get the resources to um to grow it  and to get more people to use it and make even   the thing even more wonderful because you need  to hire the engineers at some point you can just   build everything yourself and if you hire people  you need to pay them salaries because they need  (42:08) to eat something and they have families  and so there's going to be a business model to   it and the the advice would be to try and test  it as early as possible um ideally before you  
(42:20) invested much in building when you're reasonably  certain that um it's it's going to work and you   can build it then start testing it speak to your  friends speak to your family go on R it share the   idea don't be afraid that someone is going to  copy copy you um it's not hard to copy an idea   but it's it's hard to execute it quickly so if (42:40) you have a great idea if you start sharing   it you're probably going to get uh you're probably  going to get more people who kind of trying to  
(42:47) support you maybe you'll find some co-founder  or you know whoever else and it's going to get   easier to build rather than if you're like oh I  think it's too valuable I'm not going to share   No share it early um we actually uh that's kind  of how we how we start working with our CTO our   CTO was was never he never had a job interview  with us um he was um he actually started as  (43:11) someone who was helping conduct the  technical interviews both the engineers that   were hiring but then he's he's a miner himself  he's been mining since like 2010 and he liked  
(43:21) you so much he ended up working as a CTO just by  default he was like oh oh guys I see you have a   problem let me help you with this let me help  this and then he ended up being the CTO without   ever having a discussion or a contract or  uh I was at some point I was I was even   getting a little worried I'm like why is this guy (43:40) so helpful you know I I was I was getting   cautious and like I'm not sure that's good maybe  we shouldn't share all the plans um but then yeah   he was just genely very very very helpful and  he he like working as CTO for like six months  
(43:58) without us even paying him just because he  like right wow and then we're like hey you   know you've been working so much you know how  about you know we we make it official and like   yeah sure and he's like if you want to pay me pay  me uh i' I'd work for free but if you want pay my  (44:14) payment I'm like I love stories like  a kid that's when you just know you have a   person who's there for all the right reasons  like he was there because he loved what you   were doing and just brought that expertise  and what a I love your advice on uh also on  
(44:30) um just getting out there and not being afraid  to share your idea because you're so right the   execution and the work that it requires to build  something like this is If people could peer into   your day to day from 2020 to now they wouldn't (44:46) believe they wouldn't believe the amount   of work and effort that it took to get here right  so yeah Amen to that point that you made um I want   to ask you on your philosophy major what if if  you had to go back and redo your major would  
(45:03) you pick the same major and if you would what was  it what was the thing that you gained by majoring   in philosophy that that you hold dear with you  now so philosophy is a very broad thing um very   often people have a misconception that philosophy  they mix it with something kind like history of  (45:22) philosophy so philosophy is not about  studying who said what that what f um right it's   um studying different concepts And discussing them  trying to see what works what doesn't and then  
(45:37) there's just so many different areas that there's  a lot of things to choose from uh the the one way   to think about it and uh would be that every  major science kind of started as philosophy and   then kind of brushed out right so when Adam Smith  was writing about economics he didn't really write   about economics he would consider (45:56) himself philosopher   and then you know because it grew they're like  well let's just Branch it out and you people   call it eics and started this way um uh I'm  not sure the mathematicians would agree but  
(46:08) the uh the early mathematicians would also be  like well I'm a philosopher and then because   mathema got so big kind of it you know it  branched out as well um so the this the   study that I did was mostly philosophy of science  so it's think like how does science develop um   does it go this way does it go that way (46:30) uh what do we consider truth um   there's different ways to think about this is uh  you know what what is true it could be something   that you know there's a statement that kind  of corresponds to reality but then it kind  
(46:41) of begs the question okay but what is reality if  you've seen Matrix you're like you know what is   reality there um or it could be another theory  would be so that would be the correspondence   theory of truth then you would have something  like the hearing theory of Truth which is like  (46:55) well reality doesn't matter because  you know who know who knows what reality is   but if you have set of statements which is has  kind of critical mass of those statements then   you have an extra statement if it fits those  then it's true if it doesn't fit it's false  
(47:09) right and this this the kind of stuff that that  you discuss and it's very very conceptual but   it teaches you to think from very different  angles and slice and dice any situation in in   very different ways which helps you to uncover (47:26) interesting thoughts s Solutions um with   any kind of problem and the second thing  it teaches you to um to think and express   yourself uh in a in a more or less clear way  I think this is this is what Philosophy degree   really really brings you I think as as a it can  be stepping stone to an a career in Academia or  
(47:51) a lot of people who study philosophy can  become very good lawyers I think because   again they can take the situation kind slice it  in different ways and argue their way through   um yeah my My Philosophy was philosophy of (48:03) science would did a lot of things   like logic and there's just so many levels  of depth to it and my degree was just an   undergraduate degree right it wasn't any  anything too advanced but even in logic we   would think that you know there true and false  then there kind of something that gets a little  
(48:19) bit more complex with like oh how many objects  are there maybe it's put all of them something   is true then you know then you have things like  oh imagine that there's not just one world where   certain logical statements interact but there (48:33) are different worlds and then the sort of   set of logical statements here doesn't necessarily  correspond to set of logical statements here you   know here a is true and B is not true here  both A and B are true and that's okay but   then you have like we would call it this world  can see this world so that means if something's  
(48:52) true here it need to be true here as well but it  doesn't mean it doesn't work the other way around   and then you have all these like logical  structures and you think oh but this is  (49:02) this is kind of crazy right why is this  relevant but then you realize that having all   this discussions and logical structures  it gives rise to uh so many other things   yeah um like you know how Ai and generative  AI it kind of really got possible with the   mathematical inventions that came out not that  long ago right this this iterative learning uh  
(49:30) that that yeah it's it's not that long that  people came up with so you know on one hand   this people who do this very very basic science  and you know they kind of look crazy to to to an  (49:40) average Joe but then it does give rise to  the wonderful PR like chpt that we use now yeah   same I you know I found uh interviewing a lot  of people on finance some really uh impressive   people that have you know like Bill Miller is a  perfect example of like this really impressive uh   investor with an incredible track record and he  was a philosophy major and it was just I've seen  
(50:05) this really interesting Dynamic one other thing  that I've noticed with people that have this   philosophy background they're often just really (50:14) objective and unemotional in the way that   they can deal with different points of view  a lot of people um just get very emotional   if you're pressing on a a counter opinion or a  different point of view than maybe one that they   hold dear and uh people that I've at least the  few people that I've interacted with that have   this this background that you speak of they just  they're able to deal with it in a very unemotional  
(50:41) kind of way and kind of really kind of put  themselves in that vantage point to really try to  (50:47) under un uncover what the truth is or some  maybe different vantage point of the truth uh and   not necessarily call it truth but they're just  trying to understand and what it is and I just   have a lot of admiration and really have learned  a lot from people with this background so that's   really helpful what you uh what you laid out there  um okay uh last question I got for you um in this  
(51:14) space with the Bitcoin home mining uh what's  one of the biggest misconceptions that you find   people have uh or even a frustration that you you (51:24) hear an argument over and over again and   you're just like like you just want to hit the  top of your head and be like come on man like   what is this uh I think there's the small one  that I mentioned that sometimes people think   like oh uh heating uses energy and then mining  uses extra energy that's that's just not right   it's it's the same energy but I think we  we we talked about that already there's  
(51:44) one one kind of interesting discussion that um  I had recently uh talking about the the orange  (51:51) pillaring and how people get introduced to  bitcoin and how they think about the price Etc um   kind of CAU caught thinking with in the discussion  that people talk about the price and price of   Bitcoin and I was thinking well if Bitcoin is  money then there's no price of Bitcoin or it   shouldn't be price of Bitcoin it should be an fx  rate and this the then the the the uh the argument  
(52:21) goes well if it's an asset know like gold like  um Apple shares like you know real estate then   there's a price um because the the value of the (52:32) asset is uh determined and communicated   in terms of the price of money right the monetary  price you know in dollars and euros and whatever   uh but if it's money people don't talk about  the price of pounds price of dollars price of   un or or or or Euros anything else they talk  about the FX rate and and this is just I think   an open discussion interesting discussion to  have is whether we should be talking about the  
(53:00) the Bitcoin uh price or should we really  be talking about the uh Bitcoin exchange   rate Bitcoin FX rate because if it's money (53:10) then it shouldn't really be the price   it should be like well a thousand sat is you  know X dollar um the the FX rate you know what   I mean and it kind of thinking a lot one of my  favorite framings is just when you're comparing   it to physical things so like I'm looking at the  price of Bitcoin relative to a house over the last   call it 48 years or whatever you know frame that  you want to look at it and when you're when you  
(53:38) view it through this lens and you just uh take  whatever fiat currency that you're used to to  (53:43) hearing and talking about and just remove  it completely and say well how much corn could I   buy four years ago with Bitcoin versus today and  what you find is that the price on everything   desirable everything physical desirable thing  is just collapsing at an exponential rate and   um it's you know it's it's something that I  think is very difficult for people that are   looking at the space very superficially they're  just kind of showing up and they're speculators  
(54:14) like you were describing earlier and you know (54:17) the dollar is just the dollar the Euro   the Yen whatever fiat currency we want to bring up  is just it's like water to a fish and it's really   hard to get people to kind of look at it through  some other type of physical thing that you're   comparing it to and you're just looking at it  you're like everything just keeps getting cheaper   if you're a bitcoiner that truly denominates all  of your retained earnings in Bitcoin you're just  
(54:39) looking at the world and you're like it  just keeps getting cheaper it just keeps  (54:42) getting cheaper and cheaper every yeah  and this different aspects to it so um there's   different drivers you know as ecist would  say of of why is getap so right now one of   the primary drivers was just the growth of the  Bitcoin ecosystem right that there's more people   getting into Bitcoin more people buying so uh it's  I I I I think it's been more behaving a bit more   like like an asset right and just because  there's more demand for the asset the price  
(55:13) in this case you know call price was growing and (55:16) in that sense you know everything else the   a ton of corn or house would be getting much much  much cheaper in Bitcoin over the last whatever   five five seven 10 5 S 10 years um and at some  point there's going to be a plateau of this effect   right there you know there is going to reach some  sort of a critical mass this more people have   Bitcoin there's not new people necessarily  coming in so it's going to be less of this   speculative growth of um of the asset and kind of  becomes more money uh hopefully you know people 
(55:47) (55:47) really start thinking money at  that point but then uh there's another   effect that will play uh a bigger role by then  even if they say you know everyone has Bitcoin   you know everyone everyone uses Bitcoin as as as  money money around the world the price of things   will still get cheaper and that's just called uh  progress um we uh as as civilization uh we tend   to learn and we tend to improve things and and  make things better and more efficiently right the   productivity of our work in the last what even 300 (56:26) years has gone up many many times just  
(56:30) because we have the Machinery we have the  electricity right we know how to manage   things better and uh if the productivity increases  then and if you have stable money you know like   like Bitcoin in the in the concept that I'm  talking about then the uh the prices should   actually be reducing because well you know for  for the same pricec the technological efficiency   gains yeah exactly and technology efficiency it  kind of goes one way it doesn't go the other way   yeah so over all even by the time Bitcoin is (57:05) the the money there's still going to  
(57:08) be an improvement as an decrease in prices in  Bitcoin terms for everything that we consume   and it kind of makes sense at that point you  know yeah yeah uh I know Dio uh Ray doio talked   about uh this productivity efficiency and the the  number that he stuck on it was 2% annualized um   but who knows what what that reality is if you  have a sound hard money that isn't being lost   and I think that's what's going to make the  the realization of this kind of tricky to to  (57:39) fully know what the productivity  efficiency gains are um because if the money  
(57:44) was never lost then I think you could really  stick a number to it over call it 20 30 years   once it was fully uh you know M materialized  as the the money that the settlement layer   that everybody's using um maybe we'd actually  figure out what that percent is that growth   rate or that efficiency rate I is probably a  better way to put it from from early economics   courses I think they talked about um 2 3% a  year uh in general yeah that's the number I've  (58:15) heard uh yeah I think it would depend  on the economy right you have more developed  
(58:19) economies where it's harder to grow very  fast and you have Economist that from like   Agricultural Society more industrial society they  can move a little fasta yes it's a vector yeah   yeah very interesting stuff Alex I've Loved  this conversation um for people listening   to this the website is called heatbag you to go  check this thing out this is one of the neatest   things ever having seen it in person uh it is  sweet I really hope that uh you guys continue  (58:49) to you know really do wonderful things  here and I can only imagine what you have on the  
(58:54) horizon and what you're dreaming up now next but  uh Alex thanks for coming making time and coming   on the show did you have anything else that you  wanted to highlight well yeah to check out our   website check out our Twitter um we we try to  answer any any of the questions that that people   might have we we really want to um it's it's not  just about selling the devices for us I think it   was kind of becoming too during the call we do (59:21) want to uh help decentralize um the the  
(59:26) network and build the much better system this  way right it's there's there's other teams who   going to be doing similar things and you know  we'll compete in some ways and help each other   in others and uh all together I think we'll have  a very decentralized you Bas layer on the hardware   uh layer that will uh make the the monitor  system a lot more valuable for for everyone   to use so I'm really looking forward to making  that happen and um once they thanks for for your 
(59:57) (59:57) invitation to to join the podcast it's  it's a pleasure to speak to you and yeah if I   if I can build help Greatful you know please  please let me know thank you so much and I love   your final point there about decentralizing  the network and making it you know stronger   because of things like this that you're building  I think it's such an important point so Alex thank   you for making time and uh I'm sure we'll chat  here in the future sounds good thank you in my  
(1:00:24) experience with friends of mine I obviously try to (1:00:26) orange pill them and some of them get   it some of them they don't want to know about  it but as soon as I told them that I get paid   to shower now because literally every time we  take a shower my wife asked me like how many   sets did I make now with the showers I can see  like people that don't really like Bitcoin now   suddenly they like okay wait so this produces  money and can I have this in my house as well


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